You can't make it up!

Just zis Guy, you know? posted ...

Quoted message said:

"Three quarters of the public say the Government should cut traffic
levels on Britain's roads and seven out of ten want more spending on
public transport, a survey for Friends of the Earth reveals today. "

So, who exactly do that 3/4 of the public think /are/ the traffic?

I guess if they're taking a survey, then they're mostly asking pedestrians
... it's a little hard to answer all the questions while riding / driving ..
😉

Personally I think they're just talking bollocks ...

--
Paul

(8(|) Homer rocks .. 😉

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Three quarters of the public say the Government should cut traffic levels
on Britain's roads and seven out of ten want more spending on public
transport, a survey for Friends of the Earth reveals today. "

So, who exactly do that 3/4 of the public think /are/ the traffic?

Heh, too easy, its everybody else.

--
NickyD

Just zis Guy said:

"Three quarters of the public say the Government should cut traffic levels
on Britain's roads and seven out of ten want more spending on public
transport, a survey for Friends of the Earth reveals today. "

So, who exactly do that 3/4 of the public think /are/ the traffic?

Of course it could be a Marwellian statistic based on responses by members of
the public in an on-line survey carried on the FoE website

Tony

Just zis Guy said:

"Three quarters of the public say the Government should cut traffic levels
on Britain's roads and seven out of ten want more spending on public
transport, a survey for Friends of the Earth reveals today. "

So, who exactly do that 3/4 of the public think /are/ the traffic?

These survey answers all carry the implicit information that cutting
anything they do themselves doesn't apply to the respondent (though it
does apply to anyone else, possibly excepting their friends) and
providing anything new puts them at the front of the queue.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You can't make it up!

TBH, given some of of the stats pressure groups (of all flavours) fling
about, I think there's a good chance they did :-)

you know? said:

"Three quarters of the public say the Government should cut traffic levels
on Britain's roads and seven out of ten want more spending on public
transport, a survey for Friends of the Earth reveals today. "

So, who exactly do that 3/4 of the public think /are/ the traffic?

I don't see anything contradictory or illogical in the above.

I've never really thought about it before but the place where I currently
live is very similar to a large village I lived in in Germany. Both have
populations of about 3000 and all the usual facilities. Both also have
village centres that are about 1.5 miles from the railway station. The
difference is that in Germany there are regular buses from the village
centre to the station (co-ordinated with trains) whereas here I've never
seen a bus. It's not even as if people here are encouraged to drive the
short distance to the station. The car park's tiny and you have to pay to
use it, unlike Germany where the car park was huge, free and virtually
empty. I guess a lot of people who might use the train decide not to
because once they get into their cars they might as well drive all the way
to their destination. It's no surprise that the lack of a decent public
transport infrastructure forces people into their cars, even when they
would rather not use them.

BTW, I find it rather ironic that my current place of abode, Crowthorne, is
the home of the Transport Research Laboratory. You'd think this would be a
hotbed of modern transport planning, wouldn't you? Well, there's no sign
of that. (Although the TRL is having a shared use cycle path extended to
its new front door.)

--
Michael MacClancy
Random putdown - "I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's
nothing trivial." - Irvin S. Cobb
www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
www.macclancy.co.uk

Michael MacClancy said:

I've never really thought about it before but the place where I currently
live is very similar to a large village I lived in in Germany. Both have
populations of about 3000 and all the usual facilities. Both also have
village centres that are about 1.5 miles from the railway station. The
difference is that in Germany there are regular buses from the village
centre to the station (co-ordinated with trains) whereas here I've never
seen a bus.

Roos pointed out that in Dundee the buses don't stop at the train
station, and that this is Very Dopey. I'm not sure which is more
ridiculous, that they don't stop there or that I'd never even regarded
it as being strange until she mentioned it...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>,

Michael MacClancy said:

to their destination. It's no surprise that the lack of a decent public
transport infrastructure forces people into their cars, even when they
would rather not use them.

This is a regular topic over there in uk.railway. The fact is that if
you want to get people to drive less, you need to make the alternatives
palatable. Unfortunately, providing cheap public transport as a social
service to people who need it is in conflict with providing desirable
public transport for people who don't need it. There's no point in jsut
cutting prices, because anyone who is driving a 15 grand car with fuel
at close to four quid a gallon has already demonstrated that their
decision is not mediated by price. However, a rail / bus / whatever
system that cost about what running a new-ish car does might be very
attractive, but would exclude many of the existing users.

Outside of Usenet, where all problems have obvious solutions, this is a
difficult balance to strike. And because the UK government is, for
practical purposes, the London government, while London has particular
and unique travel problems, the rest of the country doesn't get a great
deal of thought put into it.

So, here in Birmingham, buses link housing estates where the majority of
people don't work in factories, to the sites of factories where ther
majority of people don't work. Because the last time the routes were
seriously altered was during slum clearance in 1950, and no-one dares
change them.

ian

Peter Clinch said:

Roos pointed out that in Dundee the buses don't stop at the train
station, and that this is Very Dopey. I'm not sure which is more
ridiculous, that they don't stop there or that I'd never even regarded
it as being strange until she mentioned it...

Near us the bus timetable was completely disconnected from the ferry
timetable. I had a chance of a word with the bus company manager and pointed
this out to him. A few weeks later there was an announcement that a new
timetable was being introduced which synchronised the bus times with the ferry
times. Result I thought - until I got the bus timetable and found they now
left exactly five minutes before the ferries got in.

Tony

Why the insistance on PT?

What we need is to stop silly 100+ mile commutes, and get people to walk or
cycle for short journeys instead of drive. That would reduce the problem
significantly.

Then if we moved away from out-of-town facilities where appropriate (retail
parks for example), built a proper motorway network[1] & a proper high
speed rail network and increase the understanding that roads are for
everyone, and not just for cars - then the problem is almost gone.

You'd still need PT as an option of course, but the main thrust should be on
sensible use of private transport, as that is (understandably) what people
want.

Of course, that's all easier said than done. There's the small matter of
finance, whinging pressure groups, public opposition to anything that
affects them, etc. etc.

[1]as opposed to the ill thought out mess of many hundreds of distinct
schemes which have been put together badly - which is what we have today

Michael MacClancy said:

Quoted message said:

"Three quarters of the public say the Government should cut traffic
levels on Britain's roads and seven out of ten want more spending on
public transport, a survey for Friends of the Earth reveals today. "
So, who exactly do that 3/4 of the public think /are/ the traffic?

Quoted message said:

I don't see anything contradictory or illogical in the above.

It's the the fact that the mythical "they" must "do something" about the
problem that gets me. When "they" build new roads to reduce congestion,
then some other "they" use that as an opportunity to commute further, which
fills up the costly new road again. But it is "they" who are at fault for
not making public tranpsort cheaper (although "they" also must not recover
this cost out of tax or motoring duties, obviously) and more attractive
(although "they" must be aware that only other people can be expected to
share a smelly bus with the vagrants and ne'er-do-wells who frequent such
things).

Quoted message said:

I've never really thought about it before but the place where I
currently live is very similar to a large village I lived in in
Germany. Both have populations of about 3000 and all the usual
facilities. Both also have village centres that are about 1.5 miles
from the railway station. The difference is that in Germany there
are regular buses from the village centre to the station
(co-ordinated with trains) whereas here I've never seen a bus.

That was St. Margaret's intention. Anybody who still uses a bus aged over
<mumble> should consider themselves a failure, after all.

Quoted message said:

It's
not even as if people here are encouraged to drive the short distance
to the station. The car park's tiny and you have to pay to use it,

Cost of station parking is ludicrous. Of course, in towns that's partly the
market at work; if the station carpark were cheap then non rail-users would
drive to the town and park in the station car park. Plus, of course, it's a
big moneyspinner.

But I think you shuld get at least a 75% rebate on a car park season ticket
if you have a rail season ticket above a certain value.

Quoted message said:

I guess a lot of people who might use the train decide not to because
once they get into their cars they might as well drive all the way to
their destination.

And the car-loving press take great delight in making sure everybody knows
how bad the trians are, forgetting that the occasional ten minute delay on a
train is as nothinf compared with the daily hour-long delay due to traffic
congestion ;-)

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

Victory is ours! Down with Eric the Half A Brain!

Ian G Batten said:

There's no point in jsut
cutting prices, because anyone who is driving a 15 grand car with fuel
at close to four quid a gallon has already demonstrated that their
decision is not mediated by price.

Not so. I would take the train a lot more if the prices came even close to
competitive - there are some routes and times where they are and I do. But
for most it doesn't even come close to competitive for me alone let alone me
and the family

Tony

Peter Clinch said:

Roos pointed out that in Dundee the buses don't stop at the train
station, and that this is Very Dopey. I'm not sure which is more
ridiculous, that they don't stop there or that I'd never even regarded
it as being strange until she mentioned it...

Sigh. What an idiot system.

Contrast with Switzerland.
Local trains will sit in the station and wait for (x) minutes if
the inter-city express is delayed.
Local buses sit outside the station and wait till trains get in.

John Hearns said:

Contrast with Switzerland.
Local trains will sit in the station and wait for (x) minutes if
the inter-city express is delayed.
Local buses sit outside the station and wait till trains get in.

The local bus at Goring & Streatley certainly waits for the train, and there
is a shuttle bus from Didcot to my office every few minutes (provided by the
estate management company).

--
Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

Victory is ours! Down with Eric the Half A Brain!

Tony Raven said:

Ian G Batten said:

There's no point in jsut
cutting prices, because anyone who is driving a 15 grand car with fuel
at close to four quid a gallon has already demonstrated that their
decision is not mediated by price.

Not so. I would take the train a lot more if the prices came even close to
competitive - there are some routes and times where they are and I do. But
for most it doesn't even come close to competitive for me alone let alone me
and the family

Competitive with what?

The common fallacy being to compare a 50ukp rail fare with the
distance 50ukp worth of petrol would get you.

If you mean the 40p per mile that the Inland Revenue (not generous
fellows) recognise as the cost of motoring, most rail fares will be
cheaper.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Not Responding said:

The common fallacy being to compare a 50ukp rail fare with the
distance 50ukp worth of petrol would get you.

If you mean the 40p per mile that the Inland Revenue (not generous
fellows) recognise as the cost of motoring, most rail fares will be
cheaper.

We rehearse this one over in uk.railway, too.

It neglects two key points. Firstly, the cost per mile of running a car
falls with additional miles. Tax, insurance and (for most purposes)
depreciation are independent of mileage, and with service intervals now
out to 15 or 20K miles, for a lot of people they're servicing cars on
date, not on distance. Ergo, raising your mileage from 12000 per year
to 15000 per year really does cost just the fuel, plus _maybe_ tyres.

Secondly, although counter-factual attempts to change large parts of
reality are a popular Usenet sport, a substantial part of the employed,
car-using, wouldn't-touch-a-train population drive company cars. The
marginal cost of driving a company car is the fuel, and may not even be
that (although private-use fuel cards aren't common, they're not unheard
of either). And now the P11D rules mean that almost everyone without
bottomless pockets is running high-efficiency diesels as their company
car, the marginal price per mile for a company car driver has actually
fallen.

ian

Just zis Guy said:

"Three quarters of the public say the Government should cut traffic levels
on Britain's roads and seven out of ten want more spending on public
transport, a survey for Friends of the Earth reveals today. "

So, who exactly do that 3/4 of the public think /are/ the traffic?

Exactly. I suspect three-quarters also think *they* should be allowed
to drive as much as they like, petrol should be 30p a gallon and claim
they would never take a bus even if it was free.

On 21/5/04 4:47 pm, in article [email hidden], "Just zis Guy,

you know? said:

John Hearns said:

Contrast with Switzerland.
Local trains will sit in the station and wait for (x) minutes if
the inter-city express is delayed.
Local buses sit outside the station and wait till trains get in.

The local bus at Goring & Streatley certainly waits for the train, and there
is a shuttle bus from Didcot to my office every few minutes (provided by the
estate management company).

Are you on the old Harwell airfield site then?

The thing that always got me when I was living in Steventon and commuting to
Hammersmith (well, the hospital which is Wormwood Scrubs) was that the local
busses stopped in the early evening and had not thought of meeting the
commuter trains out from London. (the reason for living there was that my
wife was working on the Harwell site).

Not quite as bad as Tony's ferries though. That got everyone in the lab
laughing.

...d

Zog The Undeniable said:

Just zis Guy said:

"Three quarters of the public say the Government should cut traffic levels
on Britain's roads and seven out of ten want more spending on public
transport, a survey for Friends of the Earth reveals today. "

So, who exactly do that 3/4 of the public think /are/ the traffic?

Exactly. I suspect three-quarters also think *they* should be allowed
to drive as much as they like, petrol should be 30p a gallon and claim
they would never take a bus even if it was free.

It's a fairly common opinion.

I was at a local council meeting where there was general consensus
that "most people" wouldn't use buses even if they were free so the
council's efforts should be spent on improving driving conditions and
improving parking because "everyone needs their car these days".

Fortunately (what with it being a market aware Tory council), car park
charges are moving rapidly towards a true market price. Before you
begin to think this might be cheap, you need to factor in the value of
the tens of hectares of town centre development land that are car
parks.