yogurt carbs resolved

x-no-archive: yes

Bob (this one) said:

I asked Harold McGee in a Cheftalk forum about carbs and yogurt. See
what he said...

<http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=122131#post122131>

Pastorio

We had the definitive yogurt discussion years ago when a PhD with a
specialty in fermentation processes posted here. Remember Adrian?

22. Adrian D. Shaw
Oct 8 2002, 7:51 am show options
Newsgroups: alt.support.diet.low-carb
From: [email hidden] (Adrian D. Shaw) - Find messages by this author
Date: 8 Oct 2002 13:51:20 +0100
Local: Tues, Oct 8 2002 7:51 am
Subject: Re: making yogurt for the first time....suggestions??
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original |
Report Abuse

Yn erthygl <[email hidden]>, sgrifennodd
Bob Pastorio <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

However your yogurt maker works, that's the basic recipe. Yogurt is not
an LC food unless it's made with heavy cream. Even then, it's something
to use sparingly.

Whether I hang around in this group (I only just found it) I'll see,
but maybe my entrance is a little daring...

The above comment is rubbish. If you make your own yoghourt, you
control the amount of lactose (the only carbohydrate in milk) which
gets eaten by all those acidophilus and bifidus bacteria (or
whatever culture you use). If you ferment (at the right temperature)
for around 3 hours, you will probably be left with a fair amount
of lactose. If you ferment for 24 hours you will have none, or
as near none as really makes no difference. Those bacteria are
hungry, and continually multiplying, whilst their food supply
exists. They will seek out every last bit of food (lactose) they
can and devour it.

I don't know what "heavy cream" is, but we use "double cream"
which I guess may be the equivalent. It is typically 60% fat
(if my memory serves me), meaning 40% of it still isn't. So
don't kid yourself into thinking that you can make it low carb
just by using heavy cream - it's the fermentation time that
counts. It may even be that the thickness of the cream hinders
the movement of the bacteria around the liquid, thus inhibiting
the conversion of lactose.

I think I know which is the healthier option - and (again maybe
I risk some people's wrath here) though I don't object to
animal fats, I don't like to overdo them either.

Regards,

Adrian (from Wales)

--
http://www.nspcc.org.uk/donate-4-free
Adrian Shaw, Adran Cyfrifiadureg, Prifysgol Cymru,
Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, Cymru
http://users.aber.ac.uk/ais

Susan said:

x-no-archive: yes

Bob (this one) said:

I asked Harold McGee in a Cheftalk forum about carbs and yogurt. See
what he said...

<http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=122131#post122131>

Pastorio

We had the definitive yogurt discussion years ago when a PhD with a
specialty in fermentation processes posted here. Remember Adrian?

[text of adrian's post left below for those who might have missed it]

I certainly do. However, if you read Harold McGee's post, you will have
seen that while he agrees that the lactose gets broken down, his opinion
is that the lactic acid which remains is still metabolizable as a
carbohydrate. I don't know enough of the biological processes to know
whether that's correct, but it isn't really inconsistent w/ what Adrian
said.

From my own experience, I find that the carbs in yogurt don't create a
problem for me, but I'm on maintenance and have a rather high carb
tolerance level. Those who need to keep their total carbs lower may want
to research this a little more to find out more about the metabolization
of lactic acid.

Martha

Quoted message said:

22. Adrian D. Shaw
Oct 8 2002, 7:51 am show options
Newsgroups: alt.support.diet.low-carb
From: [email hidden] (Adrian D. Shaw) - Find messages by this author
Date: 8 Oct 2002 13:51:20 +0100
Local: Tues, Oct 8 2002 7:51 am
Subject: Re: making yogurt for the first time....suggestions??
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original |
Report Abuse

Yn erthygl <[email hidden]>, sgrifennodd
Bob Pastorio <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

However your yogurt maker works, that's the basic recipe. Yogurt is not
an LC food unless it's made with heavy cream. Even then, it's something
to use sparingly.

Whether I hang around in this group (I only just found it) I'll see,
but maybe my entrance is a little daring...

The above comment is rubbish. If you make your own yoghourt, you
control the amount of lactose (the only carbohydrate in milk) which
gets eaten by all those acidophilus and bifidus bacteria (or
whatever culture you use). If you ferment (at the right temperature)
for around 3 hours, you will probably be left with a fair amount
of lactose. If you ferment for 24 hours you will have none, or
as near none as really makes no difference. Those bacteria are
hungry, and continually multiplying, whilst their food supply
exists. They will seek out every last bit of food (lactose) they
can and devour it.

I don't know what "heavy cream" is, but we use "double cream"
which I guess may be the equivalent. It is typically 60% fat
(if my memory serves me), meaning 40% of it still isn't. So
don't kid yourself into thinking that you can make it low carb
just by using heavy cream - it's the fermentation time that
counts. It may even be that the thickness of the cream hinders
the movement of the bacteria around the liquid, thus inhibiting
the conversion of lactose.

I think I know which is the healthier option - and (again maybe
I risk some people's wrath here) though I don't object to
animal fats, I don't like to overdo them either.

Regards,

Adrian (from Wales)

--
Sig pending

x-no-archive: yes

Martha Gallagher wrote:http://www.lactospore.com/back.htm

Quoted message said:

I certainly do. However, if you read Harold McGee's post, you will have
seen that while he agrees that the lactose gets broken down, his opinion
is that the lactic acid which remains is still metabolizable as a
carbohydrate. I don't know enough of the biological processes to know
whether that's correct, but it isn't really inconsistent w/ what Adrian
said.

Neither did I, so I went checking. I found a reference that shows that
some lactic acid is metabolized, some is not. Among those not
metabolized is that created by L. acidophilus, at least that's my lay
understanding from this reference:

http://www.lactospore.com/back.htm

It appears that the DL form of lactic acid is excreted in breath and
urine, I think.

Quoted message said:

From my own experience, I find that the carbs in yogurt don't create a
problem for me, but I'm on maintenance and have a rather high carb
tolerance level. Those who need to keep their total carbs lower may want
to research this a little more to find out more about the metabolization
of lactic acid.

In my experience, and that of any diabetic I know of who tests bg after
yogurt consumption, the lactic acid is clearly not metabolized as
equivalent carbohydrate, as the chef claims, because it causes no bg
elevation in fully fermented yogurt. Total Greek yogurt, which is not
at all sour, OTOH, requires lactase supplementation by me, and does
raise bg.

Susan

"Martha Gallagher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Susan said:

x-no-archive: yes

Bob (this one) said:

I asked Harold McGee in a Cheftalk forum about carbs and yogurt. See
what he said...

<http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=122131#post122131>

Pastorio

We had the definitive yogurt discussion years ago when a PhD with a
specialty in fermentation processes posted here. Remember Adrian?

[text of adrian's post left below for those who might have missed it]

I certainly do. However, if you read Harold McGee's post, you will have
seen that while he agrees that the lactose gets broken down, his opinion
is that the lactic acid which remains is still metabolizable as a
carbohydrate. I don't know enough of the biological processes to know
whether that's correct, but it isn't really inconsistent w/ what Adrian
said.

From my own experience, I find that the carbs in yogurt don't create a
problem for me, but I'm on maintenance and have a rather high carb
tolerance level. Those who need to keep their total carbs lower may want
to research this a little more to find out more about the metabolization
of lactic acid.

Seems to me that the smart thing to do is avoid yogurt (or eat small enough
quantifies as to limit carbs according to label info) while losing weight
on LC, and then add it back once in maintenance. It is really so important
to hassle with this for just one food? There are many other options for
something to eat.

Quoted message said:

Martha

Quoted message said:

22. Adrian D. Shaw
Oct 8 2002, 7:51 am show options
Newsgroups: alt.support.diet.low-carb
From: [email hidden] (Adrian D. Shaw) - Find messages by this author
Date: 8 Oct 2002 13:51:20 +0100
Local: Tues, Oct 8 2002 7:51 am
Subject: Re: making yogurt for the first time....suggestions??
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original |
Report Abuse

Yn erthygl <[email hidden]>, sgrifennodd
Bob Pastorio <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

However your yogurt maker works, that's the basic recipe. Yogurt is not
an LC food unless it's made with heavy cream. Even then, it's something
to use sparingly.

Whether I hang around in this group (I only just found it) I'll see,
but maybe my entrance is a little daring...

The above comment is rubbish. If you make your own yoghourt, you
control the amount of lactose (the only carbohydrate in milk) which
gets eaten by all those acidophilus and bifidus bacteria (or
whatever culture you use). If you ferment (at the right temperature)
for around 3 hours, you will probably be left with a fair amount
of lactose. If you ferment for 24 hours you will have none, or
as near none as really makes no difference. Those bacteria are
hungry, and continually multiplying, whilst their food supply
exists. They will seek out every last bit of food (lactose) they
can and devour it.

I don't know what "heavy cream" is, but we use "double cream"
which I guess may be the equivalent. It is typically 60% fat
(if my memory serves me), meaning 40% of it still isn't. So
don't kid yourself into thinking that you can make it low carb
just by using heavy cream - it's the fermentation time that
counts. It may even be that the thickness of the cream hinders
the movement of the bacteria around the liquid, thus inhibiting
the conversion of lactose.

I think I know which is the healthier option - and (again maybe
I risk some people's wrath here) though I don't object to
animal fats, I don't like to overdo them either.

Regards,

Adrian (from Wales)

--
Sig pending

x-no-archive: yes

Roger Zoul said:

Seems to me that the smart thing to do is avoid yogurt (or eat small enough
quantifies as to limit carbs according to label info) while losing weight
on LC, and then add it back once in maintenance. It is really so important
to hassle with this for just one food? There are many other options for
something to eat.

It's a very healthy food, not just a source of calories, and delicious.
Also, there are commercial brands that don't contain lactose, such as
Stonyfields. I know because I can eat it without taking lactase, and my
symptoms are severe if any lactose is present.

It's also easy to make at home til it's carb free.

Susan

Susan said:

x-no-archive: yes

Roger Zoul said:

Seems to me that the smart thing to do is avoid yogurt (or eat small
enough quantifies as to limit carbs according to label info) while
losing weight on LC, and then add it back once in maintenance. It is
really so important to hassle with this for just one food? There are
many other options for something to eat.

It's a very healthy food, not just a source of calories, and delicious.
Also, there are commercial brands that don't contain lactose, such as
Stonyfields. I know because I can eat it without taking lactase, and my
symptoms are severe if any lactose is present.

The bacteria digest it all and convert it to lactic acid.

Pastorio

x-no-archive: yes

Bob (this one) said:

Susan said:

x-no-archive: yes

Roger Zoul said:

Seems to me that the smart thing to do is avoid yogurt (or eat small
enough quantifies as to limit carbs according to label info) while
losing weight on LC, and then add it back once in maintenance. It is
really so important to hassle with this for just one food? There are
many other options for something to eat.

It's a very healthy food, not just a source of calories, and
delicious. Also, there are commercial brands that don't contain
lactose, such as Stonyfields. I know because I can eat it without
taking lactase, and my symptoms are severe if any lactose is present.

The bacteria digest it all and convert it to lactic acid.

Pastorio

Yes, I think we've been over this terrain quite a few times before. The
more [censored] the yogurt, the lower the carbs, as a rule.

Which reminds me, you were right about refrigerated yogurt continuing to
slowly ferment; I once bought a very fresh, long from sell date
container of Stonyfields and had a lactose reaction. It never happens
if I buy older containers, and/or keep them in the fridge a long time.
It's the only product I hunt for the oldest containers of in the store.

Susan

Susan said:

x-no-archive: yes

Bob (this one) said:

I asked Harold McGee in a Cheftalk forum about carbs and yogurt. See
what he said...

<http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=122131#post122131>

Pastorio

We had the definitive yogurt discussion years ago when a PhD with a
specialty in fermentation processes posted here. Remember Adrian?

Sure, nice guy. But it wasn't the definitive discussion. The website you
posted disagrees with him and says that different lactobacilli convert
differing amounts of lactose to lactic acid, not that it all gets
converted. <http://www.lactospore.com/back.htm>

He doesn't seem to understand that heavy cream is de facto lower carb
than milk, unit per unit. He guesses about the relationship that fat may
have to the processes.

Hardly definitive.

Pastorio

Quoted message said:

22. Adrian D. Shaw
Oct 8 2002, 7:51 am show options
Newsgroups: alt.support.diet.low-carb
From: [email hidden] (Adrian D. Shaw) - Find messages by this author
Date: 8 Oct 2002 13:51:20 +0100
Local: Tues, Oct 8 2002 7:51 am
Subject: Re: making yogurt for the first time....suggestions??
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original |
Report Abuse

Yn erthygl <[email hidden]>, sgrifennodd
Bob Pastorio <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

However your yogurt maker works, that's the basic recipe. Yogurt is not
an LC food unless it's made with heavy cream. Even then, it's something
to use sparingly.

Whether I hang around in this group (I only just found it) I'll see,
but maybe my entrance is a little daring...

The above comment is rubbish. If you make your own yoghourt, you
control the amount of lactose (the only carbohydrate in milk) which
gets eaten by all those acidophilus and bifidus bacteria (or
whatever culture you use). If you ferment (at the right temperature)
for around 3 hours, you will probably be left with a fair amount
of lactose. If you ferment for 24 hours you will have none, or
as near none as really makes no difference. Those bacteria are
hungry, and continually multiplying, whilst their food supply
exists. They will seek out every last bit of food (lactose) they
can and devour it.

I don't know what "heavy cream" is, but we use "double cream"
which I guess may be the equivalent. It is typically 60% fat
(if my memory serves me), meaning 40% of it still isn't. So
don't kid yourself into thinking that you can make it low carb
just by using heavy cream - it's the fermentation time that
counts. It may even be that the thickness of the cream hinders
the movement of the bacteria around the liquid, thus inhibiting
the conversion of lactose.

I think I know which is the healthier option - and (again maybe
I risk some people's wrath here) though I don't object to
animal fats, I don't like to overdo them either.

Regards,

Adrian (from Wales)

x-no-archive: yes

Bob (this one) said:

Susan said:

x-no-archive: yes

Bob (this one) said:

I asked Harold McGee in a Cheftalk forum about carbs and yogurt. See
what he said...

<http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=122131#post122131>

Pastorio

We had the definitive yogurt discussion years ago when a PhD with a
specialty in fermentation processes posted here. Remember Adrian?

Sure, nice guy. But it wasn't the definitive discussion. The website you
posted disagrees with him and says that different lactobacilli convert
differing amounts of lactose to lactic acid, not that it all gets
converted. <http://www.lactospore.com/back.htm

Y'know, I'll defer to a PhD biologist with a fermentation science
background every time. The website suggests that the lactose is
variably converted to differing forms of lactic acid, and in some
cultures, various others to a lesser degree. I don't think you've ever
argued that it doesn't convert to LA, including this thread.

Quoted message said:

He doesn't seem to understand that heavy cream is de facto lower carb
than milk, unit per unit. He guesses about the relationship that fat may

He understood that perfectly well; he just refuted the claim that *only*
heavy cream made low carb yogurt. Since the carbs in milk come from
lactose, and both diabetics and lactose intolerant folks (such as moi)
don't react to fully fermented yogurt no matter the fat content, he
appears to be correct on that point.

Susan

Susan said:

x-no-archive: yes

Martha Gallagher wrote:http://www.lactospore.com/back.htm

Quoted message said:

I certainly do. However, if you read Harold McGee's post, you will have
seen that while he agrees that the lactose gets broken down, his opinion
is that the lactic acid which remains is still metabolizable as a
carbohydrate. I don't know enough of the biological processes to know
whether that's correct, but it isn't really inconsistent w/ what Adrian
said.

Neither did I, so I went checking. I found a reference that shows that
some lactic acid is metabolized, some is not.

That's not what it says. It says that there are two forms of lactic acid
and one is more fully digestible - metabolizable - than the other. The
one that's least digestible is the one formed by the most common
bacterium used to make yogurt. The other is what they're selling as
LACTOSPORE:

"LACTOSPORE, a preparation containing viable spores of L. sporogenes, is
a registered trade mark of SABINSA CORPORATION. L. sporogenes
preparations in powder, tablet and capsule forms have been used in
successful clinical trials in the treatment of gastrointestinal
disorders, vaginal infections, hypercholesterolemia, lactose
intolerance, hepatic coma and precoma and as an adjuvant to antibiotic
therapy."

Quoted message said:

Among those not
metabolized is that created by L. acidophilus,

Not *completely* metabolized, they say.

Quoted message said:

at least that's my lay
understanding from this reference:

http://www.lactospore.com/back.htm

It appears that the DL form of lactic acid is excreted in breath and
urine, I think.

*Some* of it is.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From my own experience, I find that the carbs in yogurt don't create a
problem for me, but I'm on maintenance and have a rather high carb
tolerance level. Those who need to keep their total carbs lower may want
to research this a little more to find out more about the metabolization
of lactic acid.

In my experience, and that of any diabetic I know of who tests bg after
yogurt consumption, the lactic acid is clearly not metabolized as
equivalent carbohydrate,

OF course not. He said:

"Lactic acid is a byproduct of carbohydrate metabolism in our bodies as
well as in bacteria — it’s essentially half of a glucose molecule. Our
bodies use it to re-synthesize glucose, so it does have an effective
caloric value similar to that of other carbohydrates."

Quoted message said:

as the chef claims,

Harold McGee is *Dr.* McGee. He's not a chef, he's a scientist.
Essentially, the foremost food scientist writing. His book "On Food and
Cooking" is the definitive food science book extant.

Quoted message said:

because it causes no bg
elevation in fully fermented yogurt. Total Greek yogurt, which is not
at all sour, OTOH, requires lactase supplementation by me, and does
raise bg.

That website with the lactobacilli info says this:
<http://www.lactospore.com/intro.htm>
"LACTOSPORE is a lactic acid bacillus preparation manufactured and
distributed by the SABINSA CORPORATION. This booklet reviews the
background, nutritional and therapeutic aspects and current status of
the use of lactic acid bacillus preparations, and presents arguments for
the superiority of LACTOSPORE over other such products in the market,
known as "probiotics", used in microbiotherapy.

"The foundations of probiotic (meaning "in favor of life"😉
microbiotherapy lie in the postulate of Metchnikoff, a Russian
physician, that the growth of toxin-producing putrefactive organisms in
the gastrointestinal tract could be controlled by the implantation of
beneficial lactobacilli in the gut. The clinical application of
preparations containing lactobacilli was initiated on the basis of
Metchnikoff’s THEORY OF LONGEVITY, which associates with prolonged
youthfulness and a healthy old age with the continuous ingestion of
lactobacilli. Metchnikoff attributed the longevity of the residents of
the Balkan countries to the regular consumption of Bulgarian buttermilk
1. In the early 1900’s, he claimed to have successfully cured many of
his patients who suffered from a wide variety of organic illnesses,
ranging from dryness of skin and gastrointestinal disorders to
atherosclerosis, through the therapeutic use of Lactobacilli.
Metchnikoff suggested that aging is the process of chronic putrefactive
intoxication caused by certain intestinal bacteria and that these
harmful effects could be mitigated through regular ingestion of live
Lactobacillus cultures - a postulate that created a sensation in those
early days. The enthusiasm shown then by eminent doctors of that time,
advocating the therapeutic use of Lactobacillus, laid the foundations of
LACTOBACILLUS THERAPY or MICROBIOTHERAPY."

That's what Metchnikoff says, huh...?

Ooops. Junk science.

Pastorio

"Susan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

x-no-archive: yes

Roger Zoul said:

Seems to me that the smart thing to do is avoid yogurt (or eat small
enough quantifies as to limit carbs according to label info) while
losing weight on LC, and then add it back once in maintenance. It is
really so important to hassle with this for just one food? There are
many other options for something to eat.

It's a very healthy food, not just a source of calories, and delicious.
Also, there are commercial brands that don't contain lactose, such as
Stonyfields. I know because I can eat it without taking lactase, and my
symptoms are severe if any lactose is present.

I've never seen the Stonyfields brand here is SE US. Is there a particular
chain that carries it? I do like the stuff.

Quoted message said:

It's also easy to make at home til it's carb free.

One of these days......

x-no-archive: yes

Bob (this one) said:

That's not what it says. It says that there are two forms of lactic acid
and one is more fully digestible - metabolizable - than the other.

Different way of stating the same result, if we were talking about
caloric content, no?

The

Quoted message said:

one that's least digestible is the one formed by the most common
bacterium used to make yogurt. The other is what they're selling as
LACTOSPORE:

"LACTOSPORE, a preparation containing viable spores of L. sporogenes, is
a registered trade mark of SABINSA CORPORATION. L. sporogenes
preparations in powder, tablet and capsule forms have been used in
successful clinical trials in the treatment of gastrointestinal
disorders, vaginal infections, hypercholesterolemia, lactose
intolerance, hepatic coma and precoma and as an adjuvant to antibiotic
therapy."

Quoted message said:

Among those not

Quoted message said:

metabolized is that created by L. acidophilus,

Not *completely* metabolized, they say.

Quoted message said:

at least that's my lay understanding from this reference:

http://www.lactospore.com/back.htm

It appears that the DL form of lactic acid is excreted in breath and
urine, I think.

*Some* of it is.

Yes, I understood this. my point is that it's very hard to say what
caloric impact the lactic acid has relative to unfermented lactose.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From my own experience, I find that the carbs in yogurt don't create a
problem for me, but I'm on maintenance and have a rather high carb
tolerance level. Those who need to keep their total carbs lower may want
to research this a little more to find out more about the metabolization
of lactic acid.

In my experience, and that of any diabetic I know of who tests bg
after yogurt consumption, the lactic acid is clearly not metabolized
as equivalent carbohydrate,

OF course not. He said:

"Lactic acid is a byproduct of carbohydrate metabolism in our bodies as
well as in bacteria — it’s essentially half of a glucose molecule. Our
bodies use it to re-synthesize glucose, so it does have an effective
caloric value similar to that of other carbohydrates."

I couldn't find anything to support his conclusion, but I'm open to it
if you can.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as the chef claims,

Harold McGee is *Dr.* McGee. He's not a chef, he's a scientist.
Essentially, the foremost food scientist writing. His book "On Food and
Cooking" is the definitive food science book extant.

I thought he self identified on that page as a chef.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

because it causes no bg

Quoted message said:

elevation in fully fermented yogurt. Total Greek yogurt, which is not
at all sour, OTOH, requires lactase supplementation by me, and does
raise bg.

That website with the lactobacilli info says this:
<http://www.lactospore.com/intro.htm>
"LACTOSPORE is a lactic acid bacillus preparation manufactured and
distributed by the SABINSA CORPORATION. This booklet reviews the
background, nutritional and therapeutic aspects and current status of
the use of lactic acid bacillus preparations, and presents arguments for
the superiority of LACTOSPORE over other such products in the market,
known as "probiotics", used in microbiotherapy.

"The foundations of probiotic (meaning "in favor of life"😉
microbiotherapy lie in the postulate of Metchnikoff, a Russian
physician, that the growth of toxin-producing putrefactive organisms in
the gastrointestinal tract could be controlled by the implantation of
beneficial lactobacilli in the gut. The clinical application of
preparations containing lactobacilli was initiated on the basis of
Metchnikoff’s THEORY OF LONGEVITY, which associates with prolonged
youthfulness and a healthy old age with the continuous ingestion of
lactobacilli. Metchnikoff attributed the longevity of the residents of
the Balkan countries to the regular consumption of Bulgarian buttermilk
1. In the early 1900’s, he claimed to have successfully cured many of
his patients who suffered from a wide variety of organic illnesses,
ranging from dryness of skin and gastrointestinal disorders to
atherosclerosis, through the therapeutic use of Lactobacilli.
Metchnikoff suggested that aging is the process of chronic putrefactive
intoxication caused by certain intestinal bacteria and that these
harmful effects could be mitigated through regular ingestion of live
Lactobacillus cultures - a postulate that created a sensation in those
early days. The enthusiasm shown then by eminent doctors of that time,
advocating the therapeutic use of Lactobacillus, laid the foundations of
LACTOBACILLUS THERAPY or MICROBIOTHERAPY."

That's what Metchnikoff says, huh...?

Ooops. Junk science.

I didn't refer to those suppositions in my post, only to the metabolic
pathways. I didn't find anything to refute that information, but I'm
open to it if you have.

Susan

x-no-archive: yes

Roger Zoul said:

I've never seen the Stonyfields brand here is SE US. Is there a particular
chain that carries it? I do like the stuff.

I'm in the NE, where all the major supermarkets, delis, most health food
stores carry it. Maybe HFSs in your area have it or will order it for
you? The plain whole milk has a cream top to DIE for.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's also easy to make at home til it's carb free.

One of these days......

Yeah, I know. You'd be amazed how easy it is.

Susan

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I've never seen the Stonyfields brand here is SE US. Is there a
particular chain that carries it? I do like the stuff.

When I was looking for an outlet for it I went here:

http://www.stonyfield.com/StoreLocator/

HTH,

Chak

--
alt.support.menopause has a Frappr group! Go see what we look like:

http://www.frappr.com/altsupportmenopause

x-no-archive: yes

Chakolate said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I've never seen the Stonyfields brand here is SE US. Is there a
particular chain that carries it? I do like the stuff.

When I was looking for an outlet for it I went here:

http://www.stonyfield.com/StoreLocator/

HTH,

Chak

DOH!!

Susan

Susan said:

x-no-archive: yes

Bob (this one) said:

Susan said:

x-no-archive: yes

Bob (this one) wrote:

> I asked Harold McGee in a Cheftalk forum about carbs and yogurt. See
> what he said...
>
> <http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=122131#post122131>
>
> Pastorio

We had the definitive yogurt discussion years ago when a PhD with a
specialty in fermentation processes posted here. Remember Adrian?

Sure, nice guy. But it wasn't the definitive discussion. The website
you posted disagrees with him and says that different lactobacilli
convert differing amounts of lactose to lactic acid, not that it all
gets converted. <http://www.lactospore.com/back.htm

Y'know, I'll defer to a PhD biologist with a fermentation science
background every time.

C'mon. You cited the web site and it disagreed with him. Suddenly your
own cite from a company whose stock in trade is lactobacilli can be
discarded so easily? Weighed against a casual post to a newsgroup with
nothing like the documentation and specificity the website provides?

Quoted message said:

The website suggests that the lactose is
variably converted to differing forms of lactic acid, and in some
cultures, various others to a lesser degree.

That's a vague sentence. The website says that lactobacilli produce two
different forms of lactic acid, each of which we metabolize differently.
Different lactobacilli convert differing percentages of lactose to
lactic acid. None convert all the lactose to lactic acid.

Quoted message said:

I don't think you've ever
argued that it doesn't convert to LA, including this thread.

Huh? I've said it does. I've offered a quotation from Dr. McGee that
says it does. Huh? I am saying that it doesn't *all* ever convert to
lactic acid.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He doesn't seem to understand that heavy cream is de facto lower carb
than milk, unit per unit. He guesses about the relationship that fat may

He understood that perfectly well;

I said, "He guesses about the relationship that fat may have to the
processes."

Quoted message said:

he just refuted the claim that *only* heavy cream made low carb yogurt.

If lactic acid is used to synthesize glucose, some time after ingestion,
that process will proceed to produce glucose, with all the implications.

Quoted message said:

Since the carbs in milk come from
lactose, and both diabetics and lactose intolerant folks (such as moi)
don't react to fully fermented yogurt no matter the fat content, he
appears to be correct on that point.

Not necessarily.

Lactose is a galactose-glucose compound and is called a disaccharide
(two sugars) in the same way that cane sugar is a disaccharide because
it's made of sucrose and fructose. Not getting a bad lactose-intolerance
reaction doesn't necessarily mean that lactose has been converted fully
to lactic acid. It means, at least, that the bonds linking galactose and
glucose have been broken, and both can still be present in their
original quantity, just not their original configuration. The enzyme,
lactase, present in virtually all infants and only some adults performs
that function - it breaks apart the lactose compound molecule. However
it gets broken does the job for the lactose intolerant.

Total carb counts for virtually all commercial milks.
<http://www.carbohydrate-counter.org/dairy/search.php?cat=Milk&fg=0100>

I can't speak to diabetic response except anecdotally. Not good science.

Pastorio

x-no-archive: yes

Bob (this one) said:

C'mon. You cited the web site and it disagreed with him. Suddenly your
own cite from a company whose stock in trade is lactobacilli can be
discarded so easily? Weighed against a casual post to a newsgroup with
nothing like the documentation and specificity the website provides?

Bob, I went seeking information because the question intrigued me. I'll
gladly look at any relevent cites you provide that demonstrate
conclusively that lactic acid is metabolized as a carb, or as lactose
would be, or has the same caloric impact.

I'm interested in information, a lot more than I'm interested in being
right or waging a pissing match.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The website suggests that the lactose is

Quoted message said:

variably converted to differing forms of lactic acid, and in some
cultures, various others to a lesser degree.

That's a vague sentence. The website says that lactobacilli produce two
different forms of lactic acid, each of which we metabolize differently.
Different lactobacilli convert differing percentages of lactose to
lactic acid. None convert all the lactose to lactic acid.

Quoted message said:

I don't think you've ever argued that it doesn't convert to LA,
including this thread.

Huh? I've said it does. I've offered a quotation from Dr. McGee that
says it does. Huh? I am saying that it doesn't *all* ever convert to
lactic acid.

I think the point that is hard to find evidence for is the contention
that calorically, it's the same.

Quoted message said:

If lactic acid is used to synthesize glucose, some time after ingestion,
that process will proceed to produce glucose, with all the implications.

Quoted message said:

Since the carbs in milk come from lactose, and both diabetics and
lactose intolerant folks (such as moi) don't react to fully fermented
yogurt no matter the fat content, he appears to be correct on that point.

Not necessarily.

So you're re-stating your assertion from that time that heavy cream is
the only source of low carb yogurt? That was the point in contention.

Quoted message said:

Lactose is a galactose-glucose compound and is called a disaccharide
(two sugars) in the same way that cane sugar is a disaccharide because
it's made of sucrose and fructose. Not getting a bad lactose-intolerance
reaction doesn't necessarily mean that lactose has been converted fully
to lactic acid. It means, at least, that the bonds linking galactose and
glucose have been broken, and both can still be present in their
original quantity, just not their original configuration. The enzyme,
lactase, present in virtually all infants and only some adults performs
that function - it breaks apart the lactose compound molecule. However
it gets broken does the job for the lactose intolerant.

Total carb counts for virtually all commercial milks.
<http://www.carbohydrate-counter.org/dairy/search.php?cat=Milk&fg=0100>

I can't speak to diabetic response except anecdotally. Not good science.

I can speak to whether there is significant carb content in fully
fermented yogurt because I have a bg meter. If it were there, in any
form, I'd react. If it were there in a partially digested form, I'd
react more.

I think you're confusing the breaking of molecules with actual
consumption of lactose, not simple bond breaking, during fermentation,
if I understand it correctly. The carb content of milk does not pertain
to the carb content of fully fermented yogurt. Fermentation consumes the
carbs, leaving LA in its place. Now is that LA a protein, carb, or fat
calorie? I can't figure that out from nosing around.

Susan

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've never seen the Stonyfields brand here is SE US. Is there a
particular chain that carries it? I do like the stuff.

When I was looking for an outlet for it I went here:

http://www.stonyfield.com/StoreLocator/

HTH,

Chak

Yep. The Public across the street from where I normally go has the whole
milk version. Thanks.

Susan said:

x-no-archive: yes

Bob (this one) said:

C'mon. You cited the web site and it disagreed with him. Suddenly your
own cite from a company whose stock in trade is lactobacilli can be
discarded so easily? Weighed against a casual post to a newsgroup with
nothing like the documentation and specificity the website provides?

Bob, I went seeking information because the question intrigued me. I'll
gladly look at any relevent cites you provide that demonstrate
conclusively that lactic acid is metabolized as a carb, or as lactose
would be, or has the same caloric impact.

Susan, I don't think we should continue this. Now your own cite is
inappropriate, you say. You don't understand the science - the chemistry
or microbiology - and your replies demonstrate it.

Down below, you have those cites.

Quoted message said:

I'm interested in information, a lot more than I'm interested in being
right or waging a pissing match.

Funny how it doesn't look like that. We subscribe to more than just this
group together. You do the same things elsewhere.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The website suggests that the lactose is
variably converted to differing forms of lactic acid, and in some
cultures, various others to a lesser degree.

That's a vague sentence. The website says that lactobacilli produce
two different forms of lactic acid, each of which we metabolize
differently. Different lactobacilli convert differing percentages of
lactose to lactic acid. None convert all the lactose to lactic acid.

Quoted message said:

I don't think you've ever argued that it doesn't convert to LA,
including this thread.

Huh? I've said it does. I've offered a quotation from Dr. McGee that
says it does. Huh? I am saying that it doesn't *all* ever convert to
lactic acid.

I think the point that is hard to find evidence for is the contention
that calorically, it's the same.

The metabolic path was described by Dr. McGee. The USDA database
corroborates it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If lactic acid is used to synthesize glucose, some time after
ingestion, that process will proceed to produce glucose, with all the
implications.

Quoted message said:

Since the carbs in milk come from lactose, and both diabetics and
lactose intolerant folks (such as moi) don't react to fully fermented
yogurt no matter the fat content, he appears to be correct on that
point.

Not necessarily.

So you're re-stating your assertion from that time that heavy cream is
the only source of low carb yogurt? That was the point in contention.

Susan. Breaking it here when the paragraph below explains what the "not
necessarily" pertains to shows you don't understand. Or perhaps don't
wish to.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lactose is a galactose-glucose compound and is called a disaccharide
(two sugars) in the same way that cane sugar is a disaccharide because
it's made of sucrose and fructose. Not getting a bad
lactose-intolerance reaction doesn't necessarily mean that lactose has
been converted fully to lactic acid. It means, at least, that the
bonds linking galactose and glucose have been broken, and both can
still be present in their original quantity, just not their original
configuration. The enzyme, lactase, present in virtually all infants
and only some adults performs that function - it breaks apart the
lactose compound molecule. However it gets broken does the job for the
lactose intolerant.

Total carb counts for virtually all commercial milks.
<http://www.carbohydrate-counter.org/dairy/search.php?cat=Milk&fg=0100>

I can't speak to diabetic response except anecdotally. Not good science.

I can speak to whether there is significant carb content in fully
fermented yogurt because I have a bg meter. If it were there, in any
form, I'd react. If it were there in a partially digested form, I'd
react more.

Um, sure. In any form. And even more if partially digested.

Quoted message said:

I think you're confusing the breaking of molecules with actual
consumption of lactose, not simple bond breaking, during fermentation,
if I understand it correctly. The carb content of milk does not pertain
to the carb content of fully fermented yogurt.

USDA disagrees. And it's funny how the caloric content remains
essentially constant. How can that be, I wonder? And look at the carb
numbers...

<http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl>
whole milk = 146 Cal/cup 12.83 gm sugars
whole milk yogurt = 149 Cal/cup 11.42 gm sugars

Quoted message said:

Fermentation consumes the carbs, leaving LA in its place.

Fermentation consumes *some of the carbs*. You imply it's complete when
your own sources dispute it. And even after mentioning that there are
two types of LA, and the least digestible comes from the most common
lactobacillus used to make yogurt. It looks like you've already decided
what the chemistry is, the information I've provided and your own
citation be damned.

Quoted message said:

Now is that LA a protein, carb, or fat
calorie? I can't figure that out from nosing around.

You were already told all this. It's still half a glucose molecule to be
used later in synthesis of glucose.

We're done.

Pastorio