Road Cycling · Public discussion

YMC learns an important lesson

Tritonrider · 2003-10-11T03:48:20+00:00

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/?id=2003/oct03/oct11news With Mike Creed the best placed US rider in the U23 men's road race in 34th, the American team was disappointed with its performance in Hamilton. Creed explained afterwards, "I didn't think the break would come back once it went, and then when I realized there were no Dutch in it, I saw Weening start to go across. I went on his wheel and felt good, but he just kicked it up the first climb and I just missed it. I knew that was it once he made it across. I've never done an Espoir Worlds like that. I thought I was really feeling good early but then I just realized we were going really slow. There was never one solid pace, it just got faster and faster from the start to the finish." I think this really was a good learning experience for him. He's going to be a solid pro in Europe, but he has to understand the attitude they race with. You've got kids that've been in "Sport Schools" since they were 10 or so majoring in bike racing. It is not a sport, or a game to them. It's a career and way of life. Americans tend not to get it. They hang out with other Americans, or Brits and just don't understand the depth of the culture behind cycling in Europe. They might even know the riders and the history, but knowing and understanding are two different animals. Bill C

Started by Tritonrider · 11 October 2003 · Last activity 16 October 2003 · 24 posts · 1,234 views

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Original section: Road Cycling
Published: 11 October 2003
Last activity: 16 October 2003
Original author: Tritonrider
Posts: 24
Discussion status: Public discussion
Total views: 1,234
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Original post
Tritonrider
Archived post

11 October 2003, 03:48 UTC #1

cyclingnews.comnews
With Mike Creed the best placed US rider in the U23 men's road race in 34th, the American team was
disappointed with its performance in Hamilton. Creed explained afterwards, "I didn't think the break
would come back once it went, and then when I realized there were no Dutch in it, I saw Weening
start to go across. I went on his wheel and felt good, but he just kicked it up the first climb and
I just missed it. I knew that was it once he made it across. I've never done an Espoir Worlds like
that. I thought I was really feeling good early but then I just realized we were going really slow.
There was never one solid pace, it just got faster and faster from the start to the finish."
I think this really was a good learning experience for him. He's going to be a solid pro in Europe,
but he has to understand the attitude they race with. You've got kids that've been in "Sport
Schools" since they were 10 or so majoring in bike racing. It is not a sport, or a game to them.
It's a career and way of life. Americans tend not to get it. They hang out with other Americans, or
Brits and just don't understand the depth of the culture behind cycling in Europe. They might even
know the riders and the history, but knowing and understanding are two different animals. Bill C

Report
Matabala
Archived post

11 October 2003, 09:10 UTC #2

"TritonRider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
cyclingnews.comnews
Quoted message said:

I think this really was a good learning experience for him. He's going to

be a
Quoted message said:
solid pro in Europe, but he has to understand the attitude they race with. You've got kids that've
been in "Sport Schools" since they were 10 or so majoring in bike racing. It is not a sport, or a
game to them. It's a

career
Quoted message said:
and way of life. Americans tend not to get it. They hang out with other Americans, or Brits and
just don't understand the depth of the culture

behind
Quoted message said:
cycling in Europe. They might even know the riders and the history, but

knowing
Quoted message said:
and understanding are two different animals. Bill C
You've got to love the resounding optimism of some. When a guy comes up short, it's a "learning
experience". Sorry, but such kindler, gentler words of rationalization have no place in the brutal
world of world-class bike racing. Either you make the cut, survive the selection or you get
dropped, period.
Creed and the bunch aren't wide-eyed newcomers to the Euro U-23 peleton. The majority have been
based over there for a few years, doing plenty of racing, getting to know the riders, see first-hand
the bike culture, etc. Creed's been with a pro squad for a few years. I should hope he'd pretty much
have the "learning" part of it down by now. Would he have made it to that point without having some
"attitude"? What's understanding the bike culture have to do with winning a race? They didn't have
it on the day, others were stronger. Lets hope those guys are already looking forward to reversing
the results rather than writing it off as a good experience.

Report
Amit
Archived post

11 October 2003, 12:47 UTC #3

[email hidden] (TritonRider) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
cyclingnews.comnews
I think this really was a good learning experience for him. He's going to be a solid pro in
Europe, but he has to understand the attitude they race with. You've got kids that've been in
"Sport Schools" since they were 10 or so majoring in bike racing. It is not a sport, or a game to
them. It's a career and way of life.
Creed is a US based pro, so in some ways he's more professional than a lot of the other U23 riders.
Quoted message said:
Americans tend not to get it. They hang out with other Americans, or Brits and just don't
understand the depth of the culture behind cycling in Europe. They might even know the riders and
the history, but knowing and understanding are two different animals.
What does that have to do with racing ? The U23 champion is from Uzbekistan, now much racing culture
do you think is there (other than the Soviet sports culture) ? In the past Mike Creed has spoken out
against drugs and has expressed interest in things other than cycling. Either of those things might
be what keeps him pursuing a career as a Euro pro.
-Amit

Report
Tritonrider
Archived post

11 October 2003, 15:47 UTC #4

Quoted message said:
What does that have to do with racing ? The U23 champion is from Uzbekistan, now much racing
culture do you think is there (other than the Soviet sports culture) ? In the past Mike Creed has
spoken out against drugs and has expressed interest in things other than cycling. Either of those
things might be what keeps him pursuing a career as a Euro pro.
-Amit

I think it relates in the number of kids you have coming up, and the number of races available
for them. When we lived in Germany there were tons of young riders racing and training all over
the place. We could've raced several times a week within 150km if we had wanted to. On training
rides you'd have people yelling encouragement as they went by in their cars. So I'd sum my points
up as 1. Larger pool of talent to choose from. 2. They are supported and encouraged by the
general public. 3. Many more races to learn and train at without as much travel. Countries
without this will produce the occasional exceptional athlete, but most of the pack is coming from
continental Europe, and will continue to until things change. Bill C

Report
Erik Saunders
Archived post

11 October 2003, 20:47 UTC #5

BILL C has really made the point.. it is not as simple as being strong... the bike race isnt held in
a lab on an ergometer... the race is held on the roads, but the real battle field is in the minds of
the riders...
i talked to saul raisin about the race and the tactics of their team, and i have to say that most of
the young americans just dont get it... it doesnt mean that they are stupid, it just means that they
neither understand nor share in the mentality of the europeans.. a really good example of a typical
young european rider with a great mentality is viktor rapinski... study this guy, the way he rides,
and you will see how the young americans differ... a lot of it has to do with gritting your teeth
and suffering to make the race happen in every race you enter...some riders wait and hope to make
the selection, while others know the moment to dig for that last little bit in order to force the
selection...

Report
Warren
Archived post

12 October 2003, 06:47 UTC #6

In article said:
BILL C has really made the point.. it is not as simple as being strong... the bike race isnt held
in a lab on an ergometer... the race is held on the roads, but the real battle field is in the
minds of the riders...
i talked to saul raisin about the race and the tactics of their team, and i have to say that most
of the young americans just dont get it... it doesnt mean that they are stupid, it just means that
they neither understand nor share in the mentality of the europeans.. a really good example of a
typical young european rider with a great mentality is viktor rapinski... study this guy, the way
he rides, and you will see how the young americans differ... a lot of it has to do with gritting
your teeth and suffering to make the race happen in every race you enter...some riders wait and
hope to make the selection, while others know the moment to dig for that last little bit in order
to force the selection...
A "Euro" thing? Or just a *male* "Euro" thing. Witness the women's RR.
-WG

Report
Davey Crockett
Archived post

12 October 2003, 13:47 UTC #7

warren said:
In article <[email hidden]>, erik saunders <[email hidden]> wrote:
Witness the women's RR.
I did.
And saving the presence of Mlle. Jeannie, it was a pretty sorry excuse for a race.
--
le vent a Dos
Davey Crockett

Report
H Squared
Archived post

12 October 2003, 14:18 UTC #8

Davey Crockett said:

warren said:
In article <[email hidden]>, erik saunders <[email hidden]>
wrote:
Witness the women's RR.
I did.
And saving the presence of Mlle. Jeannie, it was a pretty sorry excuse for a race.
in a way i'm torn, because it wasn't too exciting, except for wondering if longo would miraculously
hold off the 10 or so chasers, but then it really does seem like the strongest women made the podium
(as opposed to a tactically smart move placing someone on the podium). i don't mind a race of
attrition myself, boring as it is to watch.
i felt sorry for nicole cooke, though.
heather (why does the men's race have to happen during the same time as football????)

Report
Omc
Archived post

12 October 2003, 15:17 UTC #9

[email hidden] (erik saunders) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
BILL C has really made the point.. it is not as simple as being strong... the bike race isnt held
in a lab on an ergometer... the race is held on the roads, but the real battle field is in the
minds of the riders...
i talked to saul raisin about the race and the tactics of their team, and i have to say that most
of the young americans just dont get it... it doesnt mean that they are stupid, it just means that
they neither understand nor share in the mentality of the europeans.. a really good example of a
typical young european rider with a great mentality is viktor rapinski... study this guy, the way
he rides, and you will see how the young americans differ... a lot of it has to do with gritting
your teeth and suffering to make the race happen in every race you enter...some riders wait and
hope to make the selection, while others know the moment to dig for that last little bit in order
to force the selection...
If they had studied Victor for THIS race, they would of been sitting watching the end race. Victor
is a tough kid, but he dosen't live in Belarus, he lives in the US with Toby Stanton (Hot Tubes)for
the past 5 years. I saw the race, I was there and they simply missed the break along with alot of
other Euros. They gave it their best shot. It is easy to say that they aren't tough enough mentally
just because they didn't make the selection. The US guys were the only ones that were at the front
going up the Beckett climb on the last 3 laps doing the chasing. The other euro teams that had
missed the break were sitting on. Give them a little credit for making a huge effort to correct a
tatical mistake. I guess they coudl adopted a European mentality and pulled up a chair next to
Rapinski and the other 80+ euros that decided to watch...
OMC

Report
Davey Crockett
Archived post

12 October 2003, 15:17 UTC #10

h squared said:
Davey Crockett said:

warren said:
In article <[email hidden]>, erik saunders <[email hidden]>
wrote:
Witness the women's RR.
I did.
And saving the presence of Mlle. Jeannie, it was a pretty sorry excuse for a race.
in a way i'm torn, because it wasn't too exciting, except for wondering if longo would
miraculously hold off the 10 or so chasers, but then it really does seem like the strongest women
made the podium (as opposed to a tactically smart move placing someone on the podium). i don't
mind a race of attrition myself, boring as it is to watch.
i felt sorry for nicole cooke, though.
heather (why does the men's race have to happen during the same time as football????)
Yes, Nicole was in an unenviable position towards the end.
I wonder if she could have got Silver if, as I thought they were going to do for a while, they'd
let Longo go.
Anyway, thankfully, unlike the mens race which so far has been a disaster for crashes, according to
CBC (French) radio, the ladies event was (relatively) Incident free.
Margaret Hemsley didn't show yesterday, but I have high hopes for my lad Cedric Vasseur to show them
his back wheel with about three laps to go.
--
le vent a Dos
Davey Crockett

Report
Omc
Archived post

12 October 2003, 15:47 UTC #11

[email hidden] (Amit) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
[email hidden] (TritonRider) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
cyclingnews.comnews
I think this really was a good learning experience for him. He's going to be a solid pro in
Europe, but he has to understand the attitude they race with. You've got kids that've been in
"Sport Schools" since they were 10 or so majoring in bike racing. It is not a sport, or a game
to them. It's a career and way of life.
Creed is a US based pro, so in some ways he's more professional than a lot of the other
U23 riders.
Quoted message said:
Americans tend not to get it. They hang out with other Americans, or Brits and just don't
understand the depth of the culture behind cycling in Europe. They might even know the riders
and the history, but knowing and understanding are two different animals.
What does that have to do with racing ? The U23 champion is from Uzbekistan, now much racing
culture do you think is there (other than the Soviet sports culture) ? In the past Mike Creed has
spoken out against drugs and has expressed interest in things other than cycling. Either of those
things might be what keeps him pursuing a career as a Euro pro.
-Amit
The kid from Uzbekistan has ridden for a top euro team (Colnago/Lowb) same team as Popvich. He
might as well be Italian, just because his national team affiliation is not a powerhouse dosn't
mean that he lacks the racing culture of Europe. It really sucks that someone could hinder their
Euro career by having values and planning life beyond cycling, but that's the way of Pro cycling.
Michael will just have to decide what is best for him. For a lot of U23's in Europe cycling is
their only way to fame and fortune and are willing to do anything to get there. When a kid is ask
by a Euro Pro Team if they are willing to make a " commitment" to the sport they're not talking
about training hard and eating right. If you tell them "no" to the "commitment" your chance of
finding a ride decreases rapidly.
OMC

Report
Omc
Archived post

12 October 2003, 15:47 UTC #12

[email hidden] (Amit) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
[email hidden] (TritonRider) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
cyclingnews.comnews
I think this really was a good learning experience for him. He's going to be a solid pro in
Europe, but he has to understand the attitude they race with. You've got kids that've been in
"Sport Schools" since they were 10 or so majoring in bike racing. It is not a sport, or a game
to them. It's a career and way of life.
Creed is a US based pro, so in some ways he's more professional than a lot of the other
U23 riders.
Quoted message said:
Americans tend not to get it. They hang out with other Americans, or Brits and just don't
understand the depth of the culture behind cycling in Europe. They might even know the riders
and the history, but knowing and understanding are two different animals.
What does that have to do with racing ? The U23 champion is from Uzbekistan, now much racing
culture do you think is there (other than the Soviet sports culture) ? In the past Mike Creed has
spoken out against drugs and has expressed interest in things other than cycling. Either of those
things might be what keeps him pursuing a career as a Euro pro.
-Amit
The kid from Uzbekistan has ridden for a top euro team (Colnago/Lowb) same team as Popvich. He
might as well be Italian, just because his national team affiliation is not a powerhouse dosn't
mean that he lacks the racing culture of Europe. It really sucks that someone could hinder their
Euro career by having values and planning life beyond cycling, but that's the way of Pro cycling.
Michael will just have to decide what is best for him. For a lot of U23's in Europe cycling is
their only way to fame and fortune and are willing to do anything to get there. When a kid is ask
by a Euro Pro Team if they are willing to make a " commitment" to the sport they're not talking
about training hard and eating right. If you tell them "no" to the "commitment" your chance of
finding a ride decreases rapidly.
OMC

Report
Chris
Archived post

12 October 2003, 18:21 UTC #13

OK, we'll give you some credit. Eric has been around for awhile, so his experience is very telling
in this situation. However, I think it is to easy to blame the Euro's as doing nothing. Many of them
had a plan, it seemed to me that the U.S. had no plan, at least according to McCarty who stated,
"We're just going to go for it," he said of the American team. "We'll see what the road brings and
how our legs are... there's no leader. Some of the other guys are nervous because they're looking
for contracts for next year."
Sure sounds like every man for himself. Now, surely they were interested in working for each other,
but really, that sounds like a poorly developed plan.
CH
[email hidden] (OMC) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
[email hidden] (erik saunders) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
BILL C has really made the point.. it is not as simple as being strong... the bike race isnt
held in a lab on an ergometer... the race is held on the roads, but the real battle field is in
the minds of the riders...
i talked to saul raisin about the race and the tactics of their team, and i have to say that
most of the young americans just dont get it... it doesnt mean that they are stupid, it just
means that they neither understand nor share in the mentality of the europeans.. a really good
example of a typical young european rider with a great mentality is viktor rapinski... study
this guy, the way he rides, and you will see how the young americans differ... a lot of it has
to do with gritting your teeth and suffering to make the race happen in every race you
enter...some riders wait and hope to make the selection, while others know the moment to dig for
that last little bit in order to force the selection...
If they had studied Victor for THIS race, they would of been sitting watching the end race. Victor
is a tough kid, but he dosen't live in Belarus, he lives in the US with Toby Stanton (Hot
Tubes)for the past 5 years. I saw the race, I was there and they simply missed the break along
with alot of other Euros. They gave it their best shot. It is easy to say that they aren't tough
enough mentally just because they didn't make the selection. The US guys were the only ones that
were at the front going up the Beckett climb on the last 3 laps doing the chasing. The other euro
teams that had missed the break were sitting on. Give them a little credit for making a huge
effort to correct a tatical mistake. I guess they coudl adopted a European mentality and pulled up
a chair next to Rapinski and the other 80+ euros that decided to watch...
OMC

Report
B. Lafferty
Archived post

13 October 2003, 12:48 UTC #14

"OMC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
[email hidden] (erik saunders) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
The other euro teams that had missed the break were sitting
> on. Give them a little credit for making a huge effort to correct a tatical mistake. I guess
> they coudl adopted a European mentality and pulled up a chair next to Rapinski and the other
> 80+ euros that decided to watch...
>
> OMC

who
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
werent as good as you guys... you all have the potential to be

champions, so
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
you should compare yourselves to the riders who are the playmakers... i

think
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
that if some of you would adopt a more playmaking mentality (SAUL) you

would
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
have better results... i only care because i like you guys and i believe

in
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
your ability... i am proud that you represent the USA... if you only

knew the
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
arguments i would get into with guys like chavanel and geslin defending

you
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
under 23 guys... they were even worse haters than you MIKE!...
Please don't confuse me with YMC ! He is smart enough NOT to post here. I'm old and dumb enough to
continue to post here. After today's Elite results, did George and the boys lack the playmaking
mentality ? Look very similar to the U23 race with a late break forming and getting away. George
I'm sure doesn't lack Euro mentality. He didn't
Quoted message said:
you should know that. Knowing you need to get to the winning break and doing it is two different
things. When the battle plans work...your a
Quoted message said:
Italians who were favored to win.
OMC
"50 and still posting to this den of experts"
POM

Report
Omc
Archived post

13 October 2003, 18:21 UTC #15

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
"OMC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
[email hidden] (erik saunders) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
>The other euro teams that had missed the break were sitting
>> on. Give them a little credit for making a huge effort to correct a tatical mistake. I
>> guess they coudl adopted a European mentality and pulled up a chair next to Rapinski and
>> the other 80+ euros that decided to watch...
>>
>> OMC
>
Quoted message said:
who
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
werent as good as you guys... you all have the potential to be

champions, so
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
you should compare yourselves to the riders who are the playmakers... i

think
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
that if some of you would adopt a more playmaking mentality (SAUL) you

would
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
have better results... i only care because i like you guys and i believe

in
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
your ability... i am proud that you represent the USA... if you only

knew the
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
arguments i would get into with guys like chavanel and geslin defending

you
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
under 23 guys... they were even worse haters than you MIKE!...
Please don't confuse me with YMC ! He is smart enough NOT to post here. I'm old and dumb enough
to continue to post here. After today's Elite results, did George and the boys lack the
playmaking mentality ? Look very similar to the U23 race with a late break forming and getting
away. George I'm sure doesn't lack Euro mentality. He didn't
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
you should know that. Knowing you need to get to the winning break and doing it is two different
things. When the battle plans work...your a
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Italians who were favored to win.
OMC
"50 and still posting to this den of experts"
POM
I've seen better Brian ..........
I'm finding that I agree with Mr. Lafferty recently on several of his comments. Brian is smart guy
and wants to see things change for the better, nothing wrong with that. My apologies to Erik, he
knows more about the imternational scene than I'll ever know. He has had good results over there and
knows the mentality. My perspective was from watching how one world road race unfolded and finished.
It was just my skewed "old man" perspective of bike racing.
"OMC"

Report
Chris
Archived post

13 October 2003, 22:49 UTC #16

So now this is about drugs?
I think its cool for kids to have other interests or concerns, but saying they have different
cycling values and then racing full-time for a pro team seem to contradict. I mean, I've known
plenty of guys take their time, go to college (or learn a trade) and then deliver big later. But
this isn't really the case. USAC discourages college and pushes top U-23's to race their program all
the while saying collegiate racing is the new hotbed for talent. Which is it?
I say encourage racing and learning, but perhaps some of these "kid's" need some more Euro time to
figure out if racing is for them. Floating around the U.S. circuit for 10 years isn't developing us
riders, though.
Quoted message said:
The kid from Uzbekistan has ridden for a top euro team (Colnago/Lowb) same team as Popvich. He
might as well be Italian, just because his national team affiliation is not a powerhouse dosn't
mean that he lacks the racing culture of Europe. It really sucks that someone could hinder their
Euro career by having values and planning life beyond cycling, but that's the way of Pro cycling.
Michael will just have to decide what is best for him. For a lot of U23's in Europe cycling is
their only way to fame and fortune and are willing to do anything to get there. When a kid is ask
by a Euro Pro Team if they are willing to make a " commitment" to the sport they're not talking
about training hard and eating right. If you tell them "no" to the "commitment" your chance of
finding a ride decreases rapidly.
OMC

Report
Kurgan Gringion
Archived post

13 October 2003, 22:49 UTC #17

"chris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
So now this is about drugs?
I think its cool for kids to have other interests or concerns, but saying they have different
cycling values and then racing full-time for a pro team seem to contradict. I mean, I've known
plenty of guys take their time, go to college (or learn a trade) and then deliver big later. But
this isn't really the case. USAC discourages college and pushes top U-23's to race their program
all the while saying collegiate racing is the new hotbed for talent. Which is it?
Dumbass -
It's both.
LANCE came out of the USAC program.
T. Hamilton started in collegiate. So did T. Danielson.

Report
B. Lafferty
Archived post

13 October 2003, 22:50 UTC #18

"OMC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
"OMC" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:
[email hidden] (erik saunders) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...
Quoted message said:
> >The other euro teams that had missed the break were sitting
> >> on. Give them a little credit for making a huge effort to correct

a
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> >> tatical mistake. I guess they coudl adopted a European mentality

and
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
> >> pulled up a chair next to Rapinski and the other 80+ euros that decided to watch...
> >>
> >> OMC
> >
>
guys
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
who
Quoted message said:
> werent as good as you guys... you all have the potential to be

champions, so
Quoted message said:
> you should compare yourselves to the riders who are the

playmakers... i
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
think
Quoted message said:
> that if some of you would adopt a more playmaking mentality (SAUL)

you
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
would
Quoted message said:
> have better results... i only care because i like you guys and i

believe
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:
in
Quoted message said:
> your ability... i am proud that you represent the USA... if you only

knew the
Quoted message said:
> arguments i would get into with guys like chavanel and geslin

defending
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you
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> under 23 guys... they were even worse haters than you MIKE!...
Please don't confuse me with YMC ! He is smart enough NOT to post here. I'm old and dumb
enough to continue to post here. After today's Elite results, did George and the boys lack the
playmaking mentality ? Look very similar to the U23 race with a late break forming and getting
away. George I'm sure doesn't lack Euro mentality. He didn't
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you should know that. Knowing you need to get to the winning break and doing it is two
different things. When the battle plans work...your a
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Italians who were favored to win.
OMC
"50 and still posting to this den of experts"
POM
I've seen better Brian ..........
I'm finding that I agree with Mr. Lafferty recently on several of his comments. Brian is smart guy
and wants to see things change for the better, nothing wrong with that.
Good Lord, maybe there is hope for peace in the middle-east. Pax.

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Kurgan Gringion
Archived post

13 October 2003, 22:50 UTC #19

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
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I've seen better Brian ..........
I'm finding that I agree with Mr. Lafferty recently on several of his comments. Brian is smart
guy and wants to see things change for the better, nothing wrong with that.
Good Lord, maybe there is hope for peace in the middle-east. Pax.
Dumbass -
Sure, after they have a nuclear war. Then there will be peace.

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B. Lafferty
Archived post

13 October 2003, 23:19 UTC #20

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:

"B. Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...
Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've seen better Brian ..........
I'm finding that I agree with Mr. Lafferty recently on several of his comments. Brian is smart
guy and wants to see things change for the better, nothing wrong with that.
Good Lord, maybe there is hope for peace in the middle-east. Pax.
Dumbass -
Sure, after they have a nuclear war. Then there will be peace.
Peace will come when you no longer have internet access.

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