Yet another thread on chain cleaning

[Asqui]

Sorry to flog a dead horse and everything but I have some questions that I haven't been able to find
answers to in the archives and FAQ, so here goes...

[It seems this has turned into a bit of a rant now so feel free to scroll to the bottom for the
actual question I'm asking...]

I cleaned the chain on my new bike (Dawes touring bike, exclusively on-road use in pretty clean
conditions and so far rarely in rain) as thoroughly as I could a week ago. It had 750mi on it at the
time and I had the bike in for its complimentary service at about 400mi. It came back liberally
lubricated and soon became a black mess (no doubt they just lubed whatever they use on to the dirty
chain, great). Before that I was managing to keep it pretty clean with regular wiping down and I
lubricated it once with the PTFE lube I bought under recommendation from the shop. It was getting
pretty squeaky when shifting the rear derailer, I assume from lack of lube, but I wanted to leave it
until the service to let them deal with it as I figured they know more than I do.

Anyway, after it became a black mess I knew it was time to sort it out properly. I wiped it down
thoroughly several times to try and keep it clean then finally attacked it properly at 750mi on.

I wiped it down thoroughly with an old sock, scrubbed it with soapy water and a toothbrush (I think
this was pretty redundant because it didn't have loads of mud or dirt on it, so it didn't seem to
make much difference), dried it with the sock, let it stand for about 10-20mins, sprayed Halfords
brand degreaser aeresol on it ("Rapid Air-Drying Formula", how useful -- it seems to dry
instantaneously, but at least the blast of the aeresol spray seems to work quite well at cleaning
pretty much instantly) and wiped with the sock vigorously. Several cycles of the entire chain. It
was still feeling pretty nasty when flexing it laterally, like it had grit still in there, though
externally it was looking pretty good. I decided that this was as good as I was going to get it and
then applied the PTFE lube, using the narrow spray tube to apply a stream of penetrating, foamy,
lubricant. I backpedalled the cranks for a little bit and wiped off the excess. I also wiped off the
chain several times in the next few days.

I think the main pitfall was that I didn't manage to clean it as thoroughly as I would have liked.
It didn't really feel "fresh" inside when I played with it. Also, I didn't rinse off the degreaser,
so although on the surface it dries pretty quick there may have been some left inside the chain. I
think the effect of this would have been pretty limited though.

So anyway, now it's a week later and I am 830mi on. I got home after a bit of light rain and got a
bit carried away. First I wiped the frame dry, then sprayed WD40 into all the unused rack mountings
and other frame holes, wiped the excess off and wiped the frame down with the WD40'd rag, then
applied PTFE lube to all the cable housing entry points, then to all the pivot points on the
derailers. Then I discovered how to use the PowerLink on my Sachs/SRAM chain and took it off. It
didn't feel as bad as right after I cleaned it. I think it's because part of the dodgy feeling I had
when flexing it may have been due to the liquid inside... or maybe the lubricant flushed some of the
**** out to be picked up on subsequent wipe-downs?

Anyhow, I wiped it down seveal more times, then sprayed it with the degreaser aeresol *liberally*
and continued wiping it down. Unfortunately it didn't seem to make all that much difference and I
felt like I was wasting time and degreaser. It still felt a little bit gritty inside.

I found a wide-neck 1L lemonade bottle and threw the chain in there in preperation to soak it in
something. (Actually, having another look at it now it doesn't seem so bad. The gritty feeling is
completely gone! Just a bit dirty between some links and I can feel that it's not *completely* clean
inside the rollers.)

========================
End semi-irrelevant rant, begin actual question about chain cleaning...
========================

I had a rummage around the garage and found: Mineralised Methylated Spirit (Funky purple colour!)
White Spirit 70% Isopropyl Alcohol

Which one of these would be the best to pour into the bottle and shake occasionally to get the
chain clean? I plan to leave it on my desk for a few hours and give it a vigorous shake every
now and then.

Other things I can think of to use are: Fairy dishwashing liquid (can't see this working too well)
Dishwashing-machine powder (I'm wary of this stuff ever since it ate pits into the bottom of a pan
when left overnight in the sink) coca cola (with all this whining about how it's so acidic, I figure
it might do some good. probably too much sugar and not enough chemicals capable of breaking down the
grease though.)

Are there any precautions? Is it posible to "over-do it" with any of these chemicals? (Aside from
the dishwashing-machine powder)

I plan on soaking it for a couple of hours with frequent agitation, then pouring out whatever I'm
using into a jar for reuse, and filling the bottle with water and shaking vigorously for a while,
maybe changing the water a few times to make sure I clean out all of the cleaning chemicals. Then
drying it with a rag and leaving it out to dry overnight before putting it back on the bike and
aplying PTFE lubricant with a narrow tube, letting it work its way in, then wiping down with a rag.

How does that sound?

Thanks a lot, Dani

 

[Asqui]

After-thought:

If I use something like White Spirit I can just do a few rinses with that then let the chain dry, as
opposed to rinsing it with water.

 

[Werehatrack]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:35:03 +0000 (UTC), "asqui" <[email protected]> may have said:

>I had a rummage around the garage and found: Mineralised Methylated Spirit (Funky purple colour!)
>White Spirit 70% Isopropyl Alcohol
>
>Which one of these would be the best to pour into the bottle and shake occasionally to get the
>chain clean? I plan to leave it on my desk for a few hours and give it a vigorous shake every now
>and then.

The third one's great for removing water, not much good for anything else I'm aware of in a bike
application.

The first is mostly what we Yanks call "Denatured alcohol"; once again, great for removing water,
not much good for chains otherwise. The "mineralised" term is unfamiliar, though; perhaps they've
blended it with something. I'd ignore this one.

The second is, if I recall correctly, a rough equivalent of what is referred to as "mineral spirits"
here in the US; colorless, with a petroleum-family odor, and about the viscosity of water. That's
the stuff to use. It dissolves oil deposits readily, and evaporates cleanly.

>Other things I can think of to use are: Fairy dishwashing liquid (can't see this working too well)

There are times when it could be the right thing, but I don't think this is it.

>Dishwashing-machine powder (I'm wary of this stuff ever since it ate pits into the bottom of a pan
>when left overnight in the sink)

It has its uses, but the most proper ones in my opinion involve the use of the associated appliance.
(Have you considered just tossing the chain in with the next load of dishes? There have been reports
thatthis works...)

>coca cola (with all this whining about how it's so acidic, I figure it might do some good. probably
>too much sugar and not enough chemicals capable of breaking down the grease though.)

The amount of phosphoric and citric acid in Coke is insufficient to be significant. You're
presumably not trying to remove corrosion anyway, which is what the acids are better suited to
accomplish.

>Are there any precautions? Is it posible to "over-do it" with any of these chemicals? (Aside from
>the dishwashing-machine powder)

The white spirits have no exposure time factor. the methylated and isporopyl alcohols could both
have substantial amounts of water in them, so it would be best to avoid them. The detergents are all
used with water; is this a major clue about exposure time?

>I plan on soaking it for a couple of hours with frequent agitation, then pouring out whatever I'm
>using into a jar for reuse,

Good plan so far, if using the WS.

>and filling the bottle with water and shaking vigorously for a while, maybe changing the water a
>few times to make sure I clean out all of the cleaning chemicals.

Counterproductive with the WS solvent. Just take the chain out, wipe it off, let it dry for a short
while, and lube it.

>Then drying it with a rag and leaving it out to dry overnight before putting it back on the
>bike and aplying PTFE lubricant with a narrow tube, letting it work its way in, then wiping
>down with a rag.
>
>How does that sound?

I will note that my former contacts at DuPont were, without exception, less than complimentary about
the various PTFE-doped lubricant products on the retail market. PTFE is a generic term for the same
stuff as DuPont's Teflon. It does have valid applications as a lubrication layer, but as far as the
people at DuPont were concerned, the majority of the *consumer* products on the market which
incorporated it were simple frauds. DuPont did the early work with the stuff, they discovered it
properties and usefulness, and in heir own plants, they don't use it for a spray or oil-carried
lubricant. If the oil base that the chain lube contains is a good lube, then the presence of the
PTFE is certainly going to do no harm; the stuff's amazingly inert at common temps. But it will
*not* remain in place between loaded surfaces without a mechanical retaining method of some sort, so
it's unlikely to do very much on a chain.

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[Eddiefel]

asqui wrote:

> I had a rummage around the garage and found: Mineralised Methylated Spirit (Funky purple colour!)
> White Spirit 70% Isopropyl Alcohol
>
> Which one of these would be the best to pour into the bottle and shake occasionally to get the
> chain clean? I plan to leave it on my desk for a few hours and give it a vigorous shake every now
> and then.
>

Everybody settles on their own method after awhile.

I favor taking the chain off every 500 miles or so and soaking it for a few hours in a solution of
water and Simple Green, a citrus-based nontoxic degreaser/cleaner. I shake the container once or
twice, or not at all, the time seems to be more important than the agitation.

I then take a toothbrush and using the leftover solution give the thing a quick scrub in the work
basin. Rinse with hot water, dry with a rag, hang it up for a couple of hours or overnight, then put
it on the bike and lube.

It's probably overkill but I like having everything perfectly clean rather than doing a partial job.
I only do this when I have a chance to give the bike a full cleaning where I get the gunk off the
chainrings, cogs and pulleys.

If they are still dirty they soil the chain quickly; in that case I just clean the chain as best I
can on the bike with new lube and a rag.

 

[Asqui]

>> Dishwashing-machine powder (I'm wary of this stuff ever since it ate pits into the bottom of a
>> pan when left overnight in the sink)
>
> It has its uses, but the most proper ones in my opinion involve the use of the associated
> appliance. (Have you considered just tossing the chain in with the next load of dishes? There have
> been reports thatthis works...)

Yeah, I did read the thread on here about that a couple of days ago, but I really think my parental
units would go haywire if I even suggested it

>> and filling the bottle with water and shaking vigorously for a while, maybe changing the water a
>> few times to make sure I clean out all of the cleaning chemicals.
>
> Counterproductive with the WS solvent. Just take the chain out, wipe it off, let it dry for a
> short while, and lube it.

Yeah, I realised that rinsing with water was a bit silly a short while after submitting the original
post. Is it alright to leave it overnight to make sure all of the WS evaporates before lubing? Or is
it going to start rusting instantaneously if left without lube...?

> I will note that my former contacts at DuPont were, without exception, less than complimentary
> about the various PTFE-doped lubricant products on the retail market. PTFE is a generic term for
> the same stuff as DuPont's Teflon. It does have valid applications as a lubrication layer, but as
> far as the people at DuPont were concerned, the majority of the *consumer* products on the market
> which incorporated it were simple frauds. DuPont did the early work with the stuff, they
> discovered it properties and usefulness, and in heir own plants, they don't use it for a spray or
> oil-carried lubricant. If the oil base that the chain lube contains is a good lube, then the
> presence of the PTFE is certainly going to do no harm; the stuff's amazingly inert at common
> temps. But it will *not* remain in place between loaded surfaces without a mechanical retaining
> method of some sort, so it's unlikely to do very much on a chain.

So basically I have some spray-lube in a can which may or may not work well but the PTFE content is
completely irrelevant and unlikely to make any difference?

Thanks for your help, Dani.

 

[Werehatrack]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 18:48:12 +0000 (UTC), "asqui" <[email protected]> may have said:

>Yeah, I realised that rinsing with water was a bit silly a short while after submitting the
>original post. Is it alright to leave it overnight to make sure all of the WS evaporates before
>lubing? Or is it going to start rusting instantaneously if left without lube...?

It should not be a problem, in my experience.

>So basically I have some spray-lube in a can which may or may not work well but the PTFE content is
>completely irrelevant and unlikely to make any difference?

Sadly, that's their conclusion, and I have to say that I have found no reason to disagree with them.
Nor have the Attorney General's offices of several of the US States, where the sellers of
PTFE-containing engine oil additives have been taken to court over their extravagant claims about
their products...and have, thus far, eventually lost in every case that I've seen. My take on your
particular lube is this; if the stuff's working well, use it anyway. It would not be the first time
that someone had marketed a validly useful item using a bogus additive as a flashy come-on.

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[Rick Onanian]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:35:03 +0000 (UTC), asqui <[email protected]> wrote: <long rant and
question snipped>

Am I the only one who'd rather spend $25 on a new chain once every couple years, and a new cassette
every other chain, than spend an hour cleaning my chain for every 2 hours I spend riding?

I clean my chain when I think it's full of crud, or when I'm cleaning the whole bike. Other than
that, I load it up with chain lube every few rides; it never squeaks, and my drivetrain lasts as
long as anybody else's.

At least, this has been the case with my badly abused mountain bike. I haven't had road bikes long
enough to know.

I've got better things to do than clean my chain every day. Things such as offending people on
newsfroups...

> Thanks a lot, Dani
--
Rick Onanian

 

[Werehatrack]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:58:27 -0400, Rick Onanian <[email protected]> may have said:

>I've got better things to do than clean my chain every day. Things such as offending people on
>newsfroups...

Some people may have have...

- an inside parking place in which they must have a clean chain or risk enraging The Gods, or
- time to engage in such things, and the willingsness or personally imposed imperative to do so, or
- a cleanliness fetish, or
- a bike that they take pride in, to the point of wanting to keep it in spanking clean condition
all the time, or
- a complete lack of ability to ignore small glitches, or
- nothing with a higher priority that would keep them from cleaning their chain at that time[1], or
- some other reason to want to do this sort of thing.

And, of course, there are folks who do it because the people with the chain fetishes told them it
was a good idea...and the list still grows.

I clean mine as I acquire used bikes, as I notice them getting really cruddy, and as time permits.
The last time that I actually *wore out* a chain was in (if I recall correctly) 1971. On the other
hand, the last time I *replaced* a chain was a couple of months ago, at aquisition of a used bike
that had pretty clearly been ridden hard and put up wet....literally.

[1] depending upon the bike owner involved, this could include watching The Simpsons on TV.

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[Douglas Landau]

If it needs the toothbrush, I figure, then there's still grit inside.

With repeated immersion, one can see when the grit stops coming out. I can't think of any other way
to know that.

After seeing that, I can't imagine that anything else works.

Doug

Eddiefel <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> asqui wrote:
>
> > I had a rummage around the garage and found: Mineralised Methylated Spirit (Funky purple
> > colour!) White Spirit 70% Isopropyl Alcohol
> >
> > Which one of these would be the best to pour into the bottle and shake occasionally to get the
> > chain clean? I plan to leave it on my desk for a few hours and give it a vigorous shake every
> > now and then.
> >
>
> Everybody settles on their own method after awhile.
>
> I favor taking the chain off every 500 miles or so and soaking it for a few hours in a solution of
> water and Simple Green, a citrus-based nontoxic degreaser/cleaner. I shake the container once or
> twice, or not at all, the time seems to be more important than the agitation.
>
> I then take a toothbrush and using the leftover solution give the thing a quick scrub in the work
> basin. Rinse with hot water, dry with a rag, hang it up for a couple of hours or overnight, then
> put it on the bike and lube.
>
> It's probably overkill but I like having everything perfectly clean rather than doing a partial
> job. I only do this when I have a chance to give the bike a full cleaning where I get the gunk off
> the chainrings, cogs and pulleys.
>
> If they are still dirty they soil the chain quickly; in that case I just clean the chain as best I
> can on the bike with new lube and a rag.

 

[Steve Shapiro]

snip
> Are there any precautions? Is it posible to "over-do it" with any of these chemicals? (Aside from
> the dishwashing-machine powder)
>
> I plan on soaking it for a couple of hours with frequent agitation, then pouring out whatever
> I'm using into a jar for reuse, and filling the bottle with water and shaking vigorously for a
> while, maybe changing the water a few times to make sure I clean out all of the cleaning
> chemicals. Then drying it with a rag and leaving it out to dry overnight before putting it back
> on the bike and aplying PTFE lubricant with a narrow tube, letting it work its way in, then
> wiping down with a rag.
>
> How does that sound?
>
> Thanks a lot, Dani

I do not believe in using volatile solvents unless it is absolutely necessary. Detergents and citrus
cleaners are inexpensive, work very well for cleaning chains and are easier on you and the
environment.

I wanted to see if my chain cleaning ritual actually cleaned the chain deep down around the pins, so
here is what I did: I removed the dirty chain then re-installed the quick link and held it in place
with a twisted piece of soft wire. This is to prevent the link from opening with no tension on the
chain. Then I did my usual cleansing ritual: put chain in bottle, add hot water plus Simple Green,
cap, shake, hold for 15 minutes or longer, empty, repeat two or three times until the liquid does
not change color, rinse with hot water, and dry with a hot air gun (a hair dryer works, but is
slower.) Then I opened the quick link to see if it was clean inside. It was. The pins were bright
and shiny as were the insides of the side plates. The exposed ends of the inner links and the drawn
bushings for the pins were also clean inside and out.

So, I'm convinced that my easy, no volatile solvent method is fast and effective. Much of the Simple
Green can be re-used if it is saved. Just allow the gunk to settle and decant the clean cleaner.

For lube, I've been using 20W 50 motor oil. It works very well and lasts for hundreds of miles
(probably much longer although I clean the chain every 200 to 500 hundred miles so I don't know.)
The motor oil is messy. No matter how many times I wipe the chain after applying the oil, I see a
fine mist of oil on my back rim, especially for the first 50 miles or so. Also, the oil attracts
dirt. I wipe the chain frequently, but I do not add more lube between cleanings. Under this method,
the chain never, never squeaks and always shifts smoothly. There is no measurable chain wear after
slightly less then 2K miles on the chain.

I noticed that the lube that comes on new SRAM chains feels thick and sticky. I also notice that it
lasts forever and it attracts less dirt then the motor oil. I found this in a head to head
comparison as my wife has the new SRAM chain and we ride together. Although it seems
counterintuitive, it has led me to try a thicker, sticker lube; chain saw bar oil. I have not used
it enough to form an opinion yet.

Sheldon Brown suggested the chain-in-the-bottle cleaning method I use. Jobst Brandt suggested the
lubing method.

Steve Shapiro [email protected]

 

[Asqui]

Steve Shapiro wrote:
> I do not believe in using volatile solvents unless it is absolutely necessary. Detergents and
> citrus cleaners are inexpensive, work very well for cleaning chains and are easier on you and the
> environment.

Hmmm, I hadn't considered the environmental aspect. I get the impression that these commercial
products are a bit overpriced. I haven't seen "Simple Green" in any uk retail stores or online
stores so I don't know how much it costs.

> I wanted to see if my chain cleaning ritual actually cleaned the chain deep down around the pins,
> so here is what I did: I removed the dirty chain then re-installed the quick link and held it in
> place with a twisted piece of soft wire. This is to prevent the link from opening with no tension
> on the chain. Then I did my usual cleansing ritual: put chain in bottle, add hot water plus Simple
> Green, cap, shake, hold for 15 minutes or longer, empty, repeat two or three times until the
> liquid does not change color, rinse with hot water, and dry with a hot air gun (a hair dryer
> works, but is slower.) Then I opened the quick link to see if it was clean inside. It was. The
> pins were bright and shiny as were the insides of the side plates. The exposed ends of the inner
> links and the drawn bushings for the pins were also clean inside and out.

Yeah, the SRAM PowerLink is cleverly designed not to come apart unless you want it to so I just
cleaned the chain as a complete loop then did much the same as you and opened the PowerLink to
inspect the squeaky clean inside of the roller and "bushing". I was very impressed, but disappointed
at how quickly it has become grimy in there again.

[...]
> For lube, I've been using 20W 50 motor oil. It works very well and lasts for hundreds of miles
> (probably much longer although I clean the chain every 200 to 500 hundred miles so I don't know.)
> The motor oil is messy. No matter how many times I wipe the chain after applying the oil, I see a
> fine mist of oil on my back rim, especially for the first 50 miles or so. Also, the oil attracts
> dirt. I wipe the chain frequently, but I do not add more lube between cleanings. Under this
> method, the chain never, never squeaks and always shifts smoothly. There is no measurable chain
> wear after slightly less then 2K miles on the chain.

!!! Now this is why I am so shocked to see my chain wearing so rapidly, when
someone tells me that they have no measurable wear with 2000 miles on, when using heavy oil for
lubrication!

> I noticed that the lube that comes on new SRAM chains feels thick and sticky. I also notice that
> it lasts forever and it attracts less dirt then the motor oil. I found this in a head to head
> comparison as my wife has the new SRAM chain and we ride together. Although it seems
> counterintuitive, it has led me to try a thicker, sticker lube; chain saw bar oil. I have not used
> it enough to form an opinion yet.

Hmmm, well I'm afraid to say that any polluted traces of the original lubricant are now nowhere to
be seen on my chain. If you like it so much why don't you find out what it is and buy yourself an
industrial size vat of it from SRAM or their supplier?

> Sheldon Brown suggested the chain-in-the-bottle cleaning method I use. Jobst Brandt suggested the
> lubing method.

The bottle method works well indeed. I'll look into more environmentally friendly alternatives to
White Spirit. By the way, why is WS bad for the environment? Sorry to be ignorant...

Dani
> Steve Shapiro [email protected]

 

[Werehatrack]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:31:02 +0000 (UTC), "asqui" <[email protected]> may have said:

> I didn't bother saving the previous dirty WS because I figured the grease was dissolved in it and
> would stay dissolved forever. The last one I did leave in the bottle to use as the first rinse
> next time.

Don't discard it. Let it sit and the particulates will settle out, leaving it stained but quite
useful. Oil residue from used spirits will do no harm, since it will be the same stuff that was
lubricating the chain to begin with, and the oil film will be really thin unless the spirits have
been used for scores of cleanings. You want to set the bottle where it can stand at an angle to
allow the solids to settle into one corner so that you can pour off the spirit cleanly.

>I cleaned the sprockets and chainrings, put it back on, gave it a liberal spray of lube (I believe
>it is called Super Spray Lube or something, and apparently it is recommended my the British Cycling
>Federation... so I guess it can't be that bad, even if the PTFE claims are bogus.)

As stated, many good products have been promoted similarly; the Pythons lampooned the practice at
least once.

>It would appear that it is getting rather close to half a rivet width off at the 12 inch mark.
>(When at full tension from the derailer) How can this be???

Some call it "stretch", those who have taken the chains apart and examined them call it "wear". Half
a rivet is about 1.5mm, which is not at the replacement mark by some standards. I'd have no qualms
about leaving that one in service.

>I checked the chain on my old bike (I cringed when I saw its state... bearing in mind it was left
>in a relatively "clean" condition for storage) It had barely any stretch, and I never cleaned that
>thing at all, with anything, and lubricated it with WD-40 (*cringe*) then later Halfords chain wax.
>I have done ~1,000 miles on it and that's after I bought it used! How can this brand new chain be
>so stretched after only ~800mi from new?

Different riding conditions produce different results. Also, is it possible that you've gained in
strength and are thereby putting more tension on the chain when pedalling now? More strain = more
abarasion by the dirt that's present = more wear; the equation is simple.

>Is it possible that being so clean and free of heavy oil/gunk inside has made it seem longer?

No.

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[Werehatrack]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 18:04:56 +0000 (UTC), "asqui" <[email protected]> may have said:

>The bottle method works well indeed. I'll look into more environmentally friendly alternatives to
>White Spirit. By the way, why is WS bad for the environment? Sorry to be ignorant...

All volatile organic compounds contribute to air pollution in one manner or another, although at
least WS does not contribute to photochemical smog. Refining the spirit is also an environmentally
dirty process at the *typical* facility, although it need not be as much as it is; profit rules over
responsible behavior there. On the other hand, many non-citrus cleaners are also produced as end
products from a petrochemical feed stock. (And I am sorry to say that as of the last time I tried
Simple Green, it was *not* citrus based; if it has since changed, this can only be for the better,
since it was decidedly less than satisfactory for me by compasison to what I usually use.)

You may have to seach around to discover sources for the kinds of cleaning agents that North
American users commonly have available. Automotive supply houses may be your best bet; if not, then
check with a janitorial supply concern. Kitchen degreasers are not always good at removing
petrochemical lubricants, though.

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[Asqui]

Werehatrack wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:31:02 +0000 (UTC), "asqui" <[email protected]> may have said:
>
>> I checked the chain on my old bike (I cringed when I saw its state... bearing in mind it was left
>> in a relatively "clean" condition for storage) It had barely any stretch, and I never cleaned
>> that thing at all, with anything, and lubricated it with WD-40 (*cringe*) then later Halfords
>> chain wax. I have done ~1,000 miles on it and that's after I bought it used! How can this brand
>> new chain be so stretched after only ~800mi from new?
>
> Different riding conditions produce different results. Also, is it possible that you've gained in
> strength and are thereby putting more tension on the chain when pedalling now? More strain = more
> abarasion by the dirt that's present = more wear; the equation is simple.

Hmmmm I don't think I've gained that much strength, but now that you mention it, I realise that
the new bike has clipless SPD pedals whereas the old one just had flat pedals. I guess that
could be it...

I think it's also the looseness of the 9 speed chain though. After one ride of around 20 miles with
some light rain at one stage, the chain that was sparkling just hours ago now has that nasty gritty
feeling when I flex it.


Maybe I should try drowning it in this Halfords chain wax next time I clean it and see if that works
any better.

Is this level of clenliness acceptable? Am I just getting pedantic now? I must say, seeing the
amount of wear on the chain has certainly made me even more paranoid.

>> Is it possible that being so clean and free of heavy oil/gunk inside has made it seem longer?
>
> No.

Damn. I knew it was a long shot hoping for "yes, you now have to make it dirty so that it functions
correctly"

Dani

 

[Werehatrack]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:57:39 -0400, Rick Onanian <[email protected]> may have said:

>On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 01:07:44 GMT, Werehatrack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I clean mine as I acquire used bikes, as I notice them getting really cruddy, and as time
>> permits. The last time that I actually *wore out* a chain was in (if I recall correctly) 1971.
>
>You haven't stretched any chains in the last 30 years?

From 1972 through early in 2000, my riding was infrequent to the point that a year could go by
without anything getting on the saddle of my bike except some dust. This began to change when I
picked up a used MTB for my daughter just because it was cheap (I paid a whole buck for it; I
couldn't pass it up since it didn't even need tires) and *she* decided that *we* needed to go
riding. Since then, the bike stable has grown from four units in various states of neglect to about
a dozen in regular use.

>I rode my mountain bike hard for one year and the chain stretched...since then, I've changed the
>chain during related service enough times that it hasn't had a chance to stretch.

Since I'm starting with chains in decent shape with good lube, doing most of my riding on paved
ways, and spreading the usage among several units, I suspect that I will be a long time getting to
the next worn out chain.

>> [1] depending upon the bike owner involved, this could include watching The Simpsons on TV.
>
>That's a pretty good priority, but the problem is...all the tv shows I want to watch come on when
>I'm asleep or riding. I'd love to watch Ren & Stimpy now that it's back on the air, but I never
>remember to, because I'm asleep before it comes on.

Never heard of a VCR and timed taping to view things later, then? Not that watching TV is a better
use of one's time than scratching the cat's head, as at least two of ours will pointedly emphasize.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

 

[Peter Cole]

"Werehatrack" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:31:02 +0000 (UTC), "asqui" <[email protected]> may have said:
>
> >It would appear that it is getting rather close to half a rivet width off
at
> >the 12 inch mark. (When at full tension from the derailer) How can this be???
>
> Some call it "stretch", those who have taken the chains apart and examined them call it "wear".
> Half a rivet is about 1.5mm, which is not at the replacement mark by some standards. I'd have no
> qualms about leaving that one in service.

The FAQ recommends replacing a chain at 1/2% elongation. At 12", this is about
1/16", or about half a rivet diameter. I try to replace mine somewhere between a half and a full
rivet diameter. Supposedly wear accelerates after the 1/2% point, so waiting longer isn't
necessarily cost effective, since sprockets and chain rings start wearing also.

 

[Rick Onanian]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 15:16:50 GMT, Werehatrack <[email protected]> wrote:
> Since I'm starting with chains in decent shape with good lube, doing most of my riding on paved
> ways, and spreading the usage among several units, I suspect that I will be a long time getting to
> the next worn out chain.

Also, I forgot to mention that I weigh 210 and sometimes crank pretty hard, and ride very rough
terrain. I'm sure that had *nothing* to do with it.

> Never heard of a VCR and timed taping to view things later, then? Not that watching TV is a better
> use of one's time than scratching the cat's head, as at least two of ours will pointedly
> emphasize.

There's a couple more problems...I used to set any VCR to do my dirty work, and it always worked.
Now, it just never seems to work, using VCRs that have worked for me before. I'm getting kind of
discouraged.

Anyway, my cat would agree, I should scratch her head rather than watch TV.

> --
> My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
> don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.
--
Rick Onanian

 

[Rick Onanian]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 16:51:33 GMT, Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
> The FAQ recommends replacing a chain at 1/2% elongation. At 12", this is
> 1/16", or about half a rivet diameter. I try to replace mine somewhere a half and a full rivet
> diameter. Supposedly wear accelerates after the
> 1/2% point, so waiting longer isn't necessarily cost effective, since sprockets and chain rings
> start wearing also.

That's the point of replacing the chain -- cassettes and cranksets are much more expensive than
chains, and once some wear shows up on any of the above, it soon wears everything else -- if the
chain is worn, it will wear the gears; if a gear is worn, it'll wear the chain, which will wear
everything else.

Replacing stretched chains prolongs the rest of the chain drive system's life.

--
Rick Onanian

 

[Werehatrack]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:35:24 +0000 (UTC), "asqui" <[email protected]> may have said:

>Is this level of clenliness acceptable?

It's probably as good as most chains get.

>Am I just getting pedantic now? I must say, seeing the amount of wear on the chain has certainly
>made me even more paranoid.

There's also the potential that the existing chain may not be as good as the ones you can buy as
replacements.

>>> Is it possible that being so clean and free of heavy oil/gunk inside has made it seem longer?
>>
>> No.
>
>Damn. I knew it was a long shot hoping for "yes, you now have to make it dirty so that it functions
>correctly"

If my short bit of experience with waxing a chain is any indication, perhaps your speculation
elsewhere that it's time to try that route might be applicable. My one and only waxed chain seems to
be accumulating crud less swiftly than its oiled cousins. Perhaps, though, trying the wax with a new
chain, to see if the chain then lasts longer, would be more illuminating.

I will also note that in rechecking the recommendations that are around, "half a rivet" is
considered the wear limit by some standards. (Others go a bit farther, and that's what I'd based my
observation on previously.)

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Yes, I have a killfile. If I
don't respond to something, it's also possible that I'm busy.

 

[Phileas]

"Rick Onanian" <[email protected]> wrote in message news[email protected]...

> Am I the only one who'd rather spend $25 on a new chain once every couple years, and a new
> cassette every other chain, than spend an hour cleaning my chain for every 2 hours I spend riding?
>
It doesn't take an hour to clean the chain.

I have two chains either of which at any given time is "in cleaning/lubing". Cleaning just means
shaking the chain in solvent which is then filtered and used again with the same chain. Lubing means
leaving the chain in bath of oil for a while and then hanging it up for the excess to drain off,
following which the chain is wiped with a cloth and is then ready for use.

The whole process is spread over a period several days depending on when I am in the shed and in the
mood for a couple of minutes "work".

Having said this, I don't know how clean my chains really are (inside) after all this and whether
they will last longer but I like putting a "fresh" chain on every week or so!

Phileas