Year round TT power development / improvement

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Originally posted by TTer
I think it was Ric who said that for some of his athletes he scheduled almost year round (I think 40+weeks of the year anyway) TT power interval sessions.

It makes absolute sense to try to raise maximal sustainable power as much as possible as this is the backbone of all good racers. Now it's the off-season I'm using the time to focus on training my TT power. I know about the dangers of becoming a 'Christmas star', flying by Christmas and worn out by April, but if I can keep up with the sessions for say 6 months then is a 40W power gain achievable?

TTer, I managed to increase my power by 10% (approx.30W) between October and March, with no intensity above 95% of TT power. I was also completely fresh when I started racing as I hadn't hammered myself with hard workouts. I don't know whether a similar program would help you, but it's proved to me how individual the whole training thing is. I think the most important thing (and the key to my improvement last year) was applying the correct amount of total training stress. For me this is considerably below the maximum level that I can handle. I only need to apply a very slight overload during each cycle (whether it's 2 days or 2 months) to gain the most benefit. Anything above this and I plateau or even go backwards. I've only found this level through years of getting it wrong. It's taken me a long time to realise that I can go faster than people by doing a lot less time and intensity, as long as it's the correct amount for me. It almost feels like your robbing people when you win!

Originally posted by TTer, i responded with >>

I think it was Ric who said that for some of his athletes he scheduled almost year round (I think 40+weeks of the year anyway) TT power interval sessions.

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it was me!

It makes absolute sense to try to raise maximal sustainable power as much as possible as this is the backbone of all good racers. Now it's the off-season I'm using the time to focus on training my TT power. I know about the dangers of becoming a 'Christmas star', flying by Christmas and worn out by April, but if I can keep up with the sessions for say 6 months then is a 40W power gain achievable?

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so long as you have some recovery periods and limit (but not totally exclude) efforts ~MAP and greater you should be fine. Many racers, do X, track or move to another part of the world to race a greater period of time than the 'traditional' season

What improvements have your athletes seen with this type of training Ric? Do you have any power numbers you could share?

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seen some big improvements with riders. often power gains of 10 to 20% plus at sustainable/TT effort and/or MAP.

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however, it's important to understand that as your fitness increases, the magnitude of increases will become smaller (law of diminishing returns!)

What about anyone else working on TT power over the period of many months? What have your results been?

Do you use strength work (e.g. 50-60rpm intervals) and short higher power VO2max intervals to break through a plateau in TT power?

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i don't low cadence sessions per se (these do nothing to increase strength, as velocity is still high and force isn't high enough), however, due to the terrain i train over (i.e., lumpy, hilly and small mountains) in Wales, there's plenty of times my power is at ~MAP and my cadence is low. I don't feel that the low cadence adds anything, i.e., it's training at that power that does, and i just ride at low cadence because i'm going up some steep grade at low velocity.

Ric

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Markster
TTer, I managed to increase my power by 10% (approx.30W) between October and March, with no intensity above 95% of TT power. .... It's taken me a long time to realise that I can go faster than people by doing a lot less time and intensity, as long as it's the correct amount for me. It almost feels like your robbing people when you win!

Thanks for the reply Markster.

That's a good improvement in six months. What kind of level were you at before that improvement (what's was your PB for 10/25 before that?)? I'm a relatively new to TTing (just over a year racing TTs), but I gather from a previous message that you competed in the Nationals? I expect the same gains are possible for me since I'm still at the early stages of specialized training.

Also how many hours per week do you train? I seem to recall from the CTS coaching thread you were doing about 6 hours per week (pre-CTS coaching)? I'm experimenting with low hours myself now and getting off the habit of looking at weekly hours/mileage (I've stopped counting it so I don't fret about only doing 7hours per week and about 80-100miles (almost all of which is TT work though :-)).

Last September I posted a 19:53 10mTT and a 53min 25 (slower course). This year I improved the 25 time but only did a few low 20min 10m TT's. Power outputs were much higher this year, but on slower courses/windy days (the nice thing about racing with SRM's is that you know whether you're getting better independent of the course or weather conditions).
I've been racing 4 years (road races and TT's), and have done plenty of high mileage and high intensity training in the past (too much), so the improvement last winter felt pretty amazing. Like I said, I don't believe it was the specifics of the training, more the fact that I stayed fresh and healthy throughout by gradually increasing the loads without ever digging too deep.

During last Winter I did 2 * 1hr turbo sessions, and 3 * long (2-4hr) rides per week. Longest week was 14hrs, but the longest weeks were during a block where my power increased the least. As I moved into the season I did more TT power and above intervals and I peaked in about 5 weeks, then plateaued (unfortunately 5 weeks early, so I'd faded a bit by my goal events).

I joined CTS to help time my peak, and because I'd had so much success with 'aerobic' training. Unfortunately they decided to load me with way too much intensity and volume and I went back into my old overtrained state and lost over 10% of my power.

So for next season my plan is to do more 'Tempo' intensity work, less endurance work and a reduced amount of intense training, timed closer to my objectives.

I have a suspicion, probably completely unscientific, that may account for some of this: Part of the trouble with CTS was that I was able to put out a load of power during the field test, but when they used this data to assign zones the endurance zones where way, way too high. They said that it was due to an underdeveloped aerobic system relative to the anaerobic system, so they loaded me up with tonnes of endurance miles at too high an intensity.
- Maybe I am able to sustain a higher lactate le

....- Maybe I am able to sustain a higher lactate level than the norm during TT's, which results in high intensity (TT power +) intervals doing me more damage than for other people, and a need to complete LT endurance rides at a lower power than normal compared to TT power.

Everyone (mostly) tends to TT at the approximately same % of MAP, irrespective of absolute fitness.

I don't know how CTS calculate their training levels, so i'm not sure how they compare to the other two systems that i'm aware of (mine and andy coggans).

Ric

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Originally posted by ricstern
Everyone (mostly) tends to TT at the approximately same % of MAP, irrespective of absolute fitness.

I don't know how CTS calculate their training levels, so i'm not sure how they compare to the other two systems that i'm aware of (mine and andy coggans).

Ric

CTS ask you to do 2 * 3 mile max efforts with (I think) 8mins recovery inbetween. The average of these efforts is your 'TT effort' which should equate roughly to the level you can TT at for less than an hour. Sure doesn't for me! They then prescribe what they call Steady State training at 90% of this value (supposed to be below TT power), Tempo at 80%, and endurance at 70%.

- a funny thing is that they also prescribe Climbing repeats at 100% of this value, and they aren't supposed to be maximal efforts. So my coach was prescribing 3 * 10min climbs at 100% of the maximal effort that I could hold in a 2 * 8min test, with the same recovery times! Anyone else see a problem with that?
(I think I'm right with the details as they are confirmed in Carmichaels 'Ultimate Ride' book)

Are these % of power or HR?

Ric

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by ricstern
Are these % of power or HR?

Ric

Sorry, % of power

m.

p.s. their HR zones (based on the test) worked out well, but the coach insisted I should use the power zones.

with those power zones on my estimated 8-min power data (using a regression equation and data from 4km, 16.1km and 40.2km TT) they come out at higher powers than my training zones. however, it depends how long you'd ride at the intensities for, as to how difficult they are. for e.g., the 90% effort is roughly the power that i do my 4min intervals at.

Ric

CTS prescribes SS (steady state) as 8-15minute intervals at that 90% power level!!

CR (climbing repeats) are done at 100%, and are 8-12minutes in my experience.

Tempo, 80%, is done for 20-50minutes. Most Tempo sessions were 40 or 50minutes for me.

Endurance varied, 1hr15 to 4hrs (for 1hour TTing). My coach put a 'cap' on the highest power level rather than prescribe an intensity.

looking at the powers again, using my own estimated 8-min power, they're both possible. for instance the 90% effort is about the power i can sustain for a 16km TT, so 8 to 15 -mins at this level is doable. the tempo effort is quite a bit (about 6%) below my 40kmTT power.

however, the endurance is about 30% higher than the *average* power i can maintain for my 2 to 3 hr endurance sessions.

Markster, would it be okay if you posted your *actual* zones? if it's not, no problem.

on the other hand 3*10-mins at 100% of 8-min TT power would be (almost) impossible.

ric

Ric, I should have mentioned that they are the interval durations and you will do 3-4 CR/SS intervals of that kind of duration. So 3 x 12mins at 100% for CR, or 4x8mins at 90% for SS.

I don't think the power zones were too far out for me, but the quantity of endurance work to LT/CR was silly. I would be doing one CR/SS session per week with sprints as the other interval session. My TT pace didn't budge in the 3months, and actually went backwards. Not enough volume for me at those levels, or maybe they were too high anyway to do much volume.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by ricstern
Markster, would it be okay if you posted your *actual* zones? if it's not, no problem.

I like to keep my actual power between me and my SRM's, so i've multiplied ALL the data below by a factor. Initial zones:

Average of Field Test (2 * 8mins) = 343W
Steady state (3-4 * 8-15mins) = 304 - 312W
Tempo (40-60mins @ 70-75rpm) = 273 - 282W
Endurance miles (1-4.5hrs) = 243 - 261W

Needless to say, I blew completely when attempting to do the endurance rides, and also all the interval work was embedded in long endurance rides as well.

After asking them to lower the zones many times I got them down to:

Average of Field Test (2 * 8mins) = 343W
Climbing Repeats (3-4 * 8-10mins) = 314 - 327W
Steady state (3-4 * 8-15mins) = 282 - 291W
Tempo (40-60mins @ 70-75rpm) = 251 - 260W
Endurance miles (1-4.5hrs) = 202 - 228W

This was just achievable in that I could complete the prescribed workouts, but in combination with the ridiculous volume (and working full time) I became impressively overtrained.

To put the zones in context, at the start of the training I did a couple of 1hr TT's at 282W

The CTS literature seems to be at odds with the zones, as it states that Steady State intervals should be below TT pace. The HR zone for these intervals is 159-162bpm, compared to my TT HR of 175bpm, and my max of 191bpm.

Originally posted by Markster, i responded with >>

I like to keep my actual power between me and my SRM's, so i've multiplied ALL the data below by a factor. Initial zones:

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that's fair enough, but as an aside without other data (e.g., height and mass it's not overly important)

Average of Field Test (2 * 8mins) = 343W
Steady state (3-4 * 8-15mins) = 304 - 312W
Tempo (40-60mins @ 70-75rpm) = 273 - 282W
Endurance miles (1-4.5hrs) = 243 - 261W

After asking them to lower the zones many times I got them down to:

Average of Field Test (2 * 8mins) = 343W
Climbing Repeats (3-4 * 8-10mins) = 314 - 327W
Steady state (3-4 * 8-15mins) = 282 - 291W
Tempo (40-60mins @ 70-75rpm) = 251 - 260W
Endurance miles (1-4.5hrs) = 202 - 228W

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using some regression equations, i've estimated what you'd be capable of at other distances and then used that to back calculate what power you'd likely have achieved in the test i recommend (a 25 W/min incremental test to exhaustion).

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This would give you these training zones

Recovery rides: up to 156 W
very long rides 156 to 215 W (up to 6 hrs)
quality endurance 195 to 254 W (1 to 3 hrs)
tempo sessions 234 to 273 W (30mins to 2 hrs)
sub TT efforts 254 to 293 W (these would be the 15 to 30 min intervals i'm always going on about!!)
TT pace 273 to 332 W
VO2 max intervals 312 to 429 W
30sec intervals 429 to 585 W+

with my guesstimate of your ability, you'd probably TT a 16km TT @ 293 to 316 W
and a 40km TT @ 281 to 300 W

You mention that you could/can do a 40k at 282 W, was this out on the road (which will have some coasting periods/low power) or indoors?

Ric

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by ricstern

with my guesstimate of your ability, you'd probably TT a 16km TT @ 293 to 316 W
and a 40km TT @ 281 to 300 W

You mention that you could/can do a 40k at 282 W, was this out on the road (which will have some coasting periods/low power) or indoors?

Ric

Spot on!

A week or so before the test I did the National 10m TT at 310W, and a week after the National 25m TT at 282W. Both very windy days, and pretty nervous.

Your power zones look realistic for me.

Hope you try them out and let us know how they go for you. or give me a shout if you want any more advice

Ric

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by ricstern
Hope you try them out and let us know how they go for you. or give me a shout if you want any more advice

Cheers Ric. The zones are very similar to some I had worked out for myself based on my power during a 30min TT on the turbo, so I will be effectively trying them out. It's reassuring to know I'm on the right track, particularly with the endurance zones (and that I'm not abnormally deficient in 'aerobic' power!)

m.