Yay, my kick improved...

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zOf1b.10471$S_.10399@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

...slightly. This is the end of the 6th week of just about every day swim practice. I've been
stretching my ankles 🙂 My coach said one of the best ways to stretch them is to sit on them.
Stretches your quads too!

I actually dared to kick without fins today, and instead of going

backwards

Quoted message said:

or being at the standstill, or barely inching forward, there was actually deliberate moving
forward. Still not very fast, but it's an improvement.

My swimmer friend, the one that has been swimming for 28 years gave me a

tip

Quoted message said:

that made me think. She said, you probably move your feet and legs differently with fins on vs.
without. Try to duplicate that movement

without

Quoted message said:

fins. Well, it helped. Of course, I only had 2-3 days to practice it, but I can duplicate my old
non-propulsive kick now, and then deliberately change something, and start moving forward. I'm not
sure I can put into words what exactly I'm doing just yet.

PS. Larry, I'm not using a kickboard, I'm not holding my head like a periscope or bobbing my bum
up in the air.

As a swimming instructor who teaches adults, I find that the vast majority of people with
inefficient kicks simply do not keep their legs straight enough. As a drill, kick while keeping your
knees completely locked, as though your legs were wooden boards. Remember to point your toes!

Focus on kicking from the hip, not the knee, and you should improve quite quickly.

As a general note, there's no shame in asking the lifeguard for tips on technique. They're generally
quite strong swimmers and many of them also instruct.

-Jim

"Hitchking" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zOf1b.10471$S_.10399@fed1read01...

Quoted message said:

...slightly. This is the end of the 6th week of just about every day swim practice. I've been
stretching my ankles 🙂 My coach said one of the best ways to stretch them is to sit on them.
Stretches your quads too!

I actually dared to kick without fins today, and instead of going

backwards

Quoted message said:

or being at the standstill, or barely inching forward, there was

actually

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

deliberate moving forward. Still not very fast, but it's an improvement.

My swimmer friend, the one that has been swimming for 28 years gave me a

tip

Quoted message said:

that made me think. She said, you probably move your feet and legs differently with fins on vs.
without. Try to duplicate that movement

without

Quoted message said:

fins. Well, it helped. Of course, I only had 2-3 days to practice it, but I

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

duplicate my old non-propulsive kick now, and then deliberately change something, and start
moving forward. I'm not sure I can put into words what exactly I'm doing just yet.

PS. Larry, I'm not using a kickboard, I'm not holding my head like a periscope or bobbing my bum
up in the air.

As a swimming instructor who teaches adults, I find that the vast majority of people with
inefficient kicks simply do not keep their legs straight enough. As a drill, kick while keeping
your knees completely locked, as though your legs were wooden boards. Remember to point your toes!

yea, I noticed with fins, when I stiffen my lower leg, I tend to zoom through the water, AND get
propulsion from the kick. I also noticed it helps keep my lower body from weaving and creating more
drag. When I take my fins off... well, my feet are relatively small, and I'm working on getting my
ankles more flexible... they didn't even use to flex to 90, in last 6 weeks I got them just barely
past 90, and that seems to have coincided with some improvement in my kick. (I only started swimming
about 6 weeks ago)

Okay, a question for you, at the moment, without fins my kick seems to be somewhat more productive
when I bend my knees some. I understand that is a function of not pointing my toes enough (ankles
not bending enough). Is that correct?

Wit fins, my little blue zoomers, right now my kick is about 4 times more propulsive then without.
I'm guessing, there's more than just ankles at play here???

Quoted message said:

Focus on kicking from the hip, not the knee, and you should improve quite quickly.

Yea! Actually, I really like the vertical kicking exerscise for that. Being new to swimming, and
till quite a bit out of shape, up/down the pool kicking drills, even though I like them for calorie
burning reason, still provide a bit much sensory input for me to be able to keep the mental tally of
what all my body parts are doing. With vertical kick, I can concentrate better on the kick. I
suppose other than stretching my ankles, I'm starting to get a slight clue as to what a more
propulsive kick feels like. I'm hoping with practice, it will becoime more a second nature rather
than an involved mental exercise. I'll hopefully be able to do it better while swiming and doing the
more traditional kicking drills too (and be able to concentrate on other parts). Like abs! I keep
forgetting the abs and start weaving (bending sideways at the waist). Man, there is a lot of detail
to remember, then add that I still need a lot of conditioning, I see it's going to take time and a
lot of practice. Good thing is I'm really liking it all.

I just need to get used to the pace of the progress, and get over the idea that if I don't see
progress each day, I'm not working hard enough! (okay, I'm overanalyzing here... probably more for
my own benefit. Hopefully I didn't bore you too much.)

Quoted message said:

As a general note, there's no shame in asking the lifeguard for tips on technique. They're
generally quite strong swimmers and many of them also instruct.

Now, that's a good idea! thanks 🙂

I swim on a masters team, we have good coach, very likeable too 🙂 He offers stroke clinics and
private lessons too. I'm figuring I'll give myself maybe another month or so (3 month mark), to
build up my conditioning a bit more, and then ask him for some lessons. Doesn't look like he's
planning on doing any stroke clinics in the next month or so.

Thanks for your input 🙂

"Hitchking" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As a swimming instructor who teaches adults, I find that the vast majority of people with
inefficient kicks simply do not keep their legs straight enough. As a drill, kick while keeping
your knees completely locked, as though your legs were wooden boards. Remember to point your toes!

Focus on kicking from the hip, not the knee, and you should improve quite quickly.

I've always been amazed that the best kickers on the planet have a leg motion that seems to defy the
two-pivot structure of the leg. Rather than being like board in the water, Klim, Popov, and Thorpe
have a pronounced whip to their freestyle kick that makes it appear they lack a rigid bone below the
hip. Their knees bend at an angle approaching 45 degrees, and hyper-flex at the bottom of the
down-stroke to well-past 180 degrees. The motion in their ankles is a continuation of the knee
undulation, timed to complete the snap of the whip.

My kick only began to improve when I was able to visualize and feel the fluid motion and the
whipping action. 'Kicking from the hip' is like suggesting a baseball pitcher throws from the
shoulder: the movement starts well before that, and is a far more complex motion beyond that point.

-- Mark

"Mark Miller" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Hitchking" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

As a swimming instructor who teaches adults, I find that the vast

majority

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of people with inefficient kicks simply do not keep their legs straight enough. As a drill, kick
while keeping your knees completely locked, as though your legs were wooden boards. Remember to
point your toes!

Focus on kicking from the hip, not the knee, and you should improve

quite

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

quickly.

I've always been amazed that the best kickers on the planet have a leg motion that seems to defy
the two-pivot structure of the leg. Rather than being like board in the water, Klim, Popov, and
Thorpe have a pronounced whip to their freestyle kick that makes it appear they lack a rigid bone
below the hip. Their knees bend at an angle approaching 45 degrees, and hyper-flex at the bottom
of the down-stroke to well-past 180 degrees. The motion in their ankles is a continuation of the
knee undulation, timed to complete the snap of the whip.

My kick only began to improve when I was able to visualize and feel the fluid motion and the
whipping action. 'Kicking from the hip' is like suggesting a baseball pitcher throws from the
shoulder: the movement

starts

Quoted message said:

well before that, and is a far more complex motion beyond that point.

-- Mark

the way I see kicking from the hip is more of a mental exercise. Your legs will bend some anyway,
but at some point a swimmer needs to learn the difference between a leg bend getting in the way, and
it actually being helpful.

You know, it's much like my coach telling me yesterday to put my left arm in a 10'o'clock position,
and my right in a 2'o'clock position. (I have a tendency to cross my arms too much, especially when
I tire out) And he held his arms up in the air as if doing a "Y" in the YMCA song.

I giggled (cause I know that's not the way to swim), and said, I got it, if I think I'm putting my
arms at 10 and 2 they'll actually end up being straight and not crossing. The coach nodded and said,
that's the way it works, you need to cheat your brain, right now your brain thinks it's going
straight, but in reality, your arms are still crossing. (Especially when you don't really get to see
where they are going, but you go by feel only)

Similar with kicking, I noticed when I do the straight leg kicking exercise, I remember to point my
toes more. When I bend to kick, I tend to not point my toes. So, until pointing toes starts coming
naturally, I can probably benefit from the straight leg kicking exercises. Then again, those are not
the only kicking exercises I do.

I can't find the thread where this belongs: At age 53, before my knee went seriously bad, I swam a
1650 at Y nationals in 25:59. I regularly kicked the same 1650 under 32 minutes. Not surprisingly,
my toes can touch the floor when flexed, but only if they turn in, so that each leg and foot makes a
right angle and is flat-footed against the floor when the toes touch. It looks pretty weird. When my
kids and I had contests about who could make their body do the weirdest stuff, this was one of my
favorites. I can still do it although my kicking has been slowed down by my no longer being able to
hyperextend the one knee. How's that, Larry?

Ruth Kazez

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I regularly kicked the same 1650 under 32 minutes [at age 53].

That is awesome, therefore, I am in awe.

Don

"rtk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I can't find the thread where this belongs: At age 53, before my knee went seriously bad, I swam a
1650 at Y nationals in 25:59. I regularly kicked the same 1650 under 32 minutes. Not surprisingly,
my toes can touch the floor when flexed, but only if they turn in, so that each leg and foot makes
a right angle and is flat-footed against the floor when the toes touch. It looks pretty weird.
When my kids and I had contests about who could make their body do the weirdest stuff, this was
one of my favorites. I can still do it although my kicking has been slowed down by my no longer
being able to hyperextend the one knee. How's that, Larry?

Ruth Kazez

Wow! I think I want your feet!!!! Pretty impressive 🙂

Donald Graft said:

That is awesome, therefore, I am in awe.

What's really odd (I wish I could say really awesome) is that I swim with a very diminished kick,
but if use a pull-buoy I'm at least 5 seconds per lap slower. I dread when wet suits are allowed at
a triathlon because they slow me down and I'm too wimpy about cold to go without. Plus everyone else
gains a lot by using them.

Ruth Kazez

DaKitty said:

"Hitchking" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DaKitty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zOf1b.10471$S_.10399@fed1read01...

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My swimmer friend, the one that has been swimming for 28 years gave me a

tip

Quoted message said:

that made me think. She said, you probably move your feet and legs differently with fins on vs.
without. Try to duplicate that movement

without

Quoted message said:

fins.

Great point - efficient kicking seems to be largely about optimizing the angle of the propulsive
surface ie: pushing back as much as possible without all that inconvenient vertical vector you'd get
in the middle of your kick if you bent your knees to 90deg. Keeping your knees stiff and letting the
flippers do the flexing for you would seem an efficient way to 'trim your sails' while keeping the
kick small (small gaps between propulsive phases).

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As a swimming instructor who teaches adults, I find that the vast majority of people with
inefficient kicks simply do not keep their legs straight enough. As a drill, kick while
keeping your knees completely locked, as though your legs were wooden boards. Remember to
point your toes!

it's amazing how a really bad/green kicker will seem to do a 'hokey pokey kick' - jack hammering the
foot in & out of an imaginary hole behind them, piston style. Admittedly, it's been a long time
since my preswimming days, but I have trouble believing that the motion is at all intuitive. Makes
me wonder what the corresponding mental imagery is like.

Quoted message said:

yea, I noticed with fins, when I stiffen my lower leg, I tend to zoom through the water, AND get
propulsion from the kick. I also noticed it helps keep my lower body from weaving and creating
more drag. When I take my fins off... well, my feet are relatively small, and I'm working on
getting my ankles more flexible... they didn't even use to flex to 90, in last 6 weeks I got them
just barely past 90, and that seems to have coincided with some improvement in my kick. (I only
started swimming about 6 weeks ago)

Okay, a question for you, at the moment, without fins my kick seems to be somewhat more productive
when I bend my knees some. I understand that is a function of not pointing my toes enough (ankles
not bending enough). Is that correct?

There will always be noticeable knee bend - that's where the 'snap' in the kick comes from. Ankle
flexibility just takes this 'gross motor skill' and turns it into an finely tuned instrument
propulsion 😉. The problem starts when the ankle is so inflexible that the knee must bend more to
catch any water at all. OTOH this advice should prob be taken with a grain of salt - my flutter kick
has defied several coaches trying to improve it. It just keep just plodding along despite any
improvements in my other kicks or (pretty good actually) ankle flexibility.

Quoted message said:

Wit fins, my little blue zoomers, right now my kick is about 4 times more propulsive then without.
I'm guessing, there's more than just ankles at play here???

Quoted message said:

Focus on kicking from the hip, not the knee, and you should improve quite quickly.

Yea! Actually, I really like the vertical kicking exerscise for that. Being new to swimming, and
till quite a bit out of shape, up/down the pool kicking drills, even though I like them for
calorie burning reason, still provide a bit much sensory input for me to be able to keep the
mental tally of what all my body parts are doing. With vertical kick, I can concentrate better on
the kick. I suppose other than stretching my ankles, I'm starting to get a slight clue as to what
a more propulsive kick feels like.

/me shudders in horror of hours spent doing vertical kick in the dive tank... Actually a little
vkick can really help if you've got a lopsided kick or the legs just can't seem to learn the
difference between 'hard' and 'explosive'. A great way to get in some lower body work you _know_
isn't going to turn into social hour 😉

Quoted message said:

I'm hoping with practice, it will becoime more a second nature rather than an involved mental
exercise. I'll hopefully be able to do it better while swiming and doing the more traditional
kicking drills too (and be able to concentrate on other parts). Like abs! I keep forgetting the
abs and start weaving (bending sideways at the waist). Man, there is a lot of detail to remember,
then add that I still need a lot of conditioning, I see it's going to take time and a lot of
practice. Good thing is I'm really liking it all.

I just need to get used to the pace of the progress, and get over the idea that if I don't see
progress each day, I'm not working hard enough! (okay, I'm overanalyzing here... probably more for
my own benefit. Hopefully I didn't bore you too much.)

Quoted message said:

As a general note, there's no shame in asking the lifeguard for tips on technique. They're
generally quite strong swimmers and many of them also instruct.

Now, that's a good idea! thanks 🙂

I swim on a masters team, we have good coach, very likeable too 🙂 He offers stroke clinics and
private lessons too. I'm figuring I'll give myself maybe another month or so (3 month mark), to
build up my conditioning a bit more, and then ask him for some lessons. Doesn't look like he's
planning on doing any stroke clinics in the next month or so.

Thanks for your input 🙂

Another thought, esp if you've got access to substantially better swimmers is to watch both them and
yourself. It's funny but one can watch a strong smooth swimmer and think 'Aha! that's what it should
look like!' and then jump in the pool and discover the body has _absolutely_ no idea how to corelate
the visual & the tactile. The whole change of focus(es) vertical -> horizontal/center of gravity ->
center of buoyancy seems to really throw the hind brain off. Video taping yourself, preferably with
a really short feedback loop say a viewing every 25-50m, can be a great way to learn this
coordination making, in the process, much easier to learn from others.

--Mike