Yanai vs "TI"--2nd Front Opened

I found the article interesting, but hardly in opposition to TI:

"Observations have consistently suggested that swimmers improve their performance over a period of
training, being able to attain faster speed with an increased stroke length: In other words,
swimmers learn to swim at a given speed with a reduced stroke frequency."

"It suggests that swimmers should adopt the lowest stroke frequency possible at given speeds of
swimming, because a lowered stroke frequency requires a reduced amount of fluid forces in the
non-propulsive directions to maintain the same amount of bodyroll. This allows the swimmers to
either increase the amplitude of bodyroll or learn to redirect this surplus into the propulsive
direction to swim faster."

The "swimming-like-a-log" thing is just a part of that "TI swimming must be exactly like TI
drilling" trope that Larry trots out with varying amplitude and frequency.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

In article <[email hidden]>, Donal Fagan

Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com said:

The "swimming-like-a-log" thing is just a part of that "TI swimming must be exactly like TI
drilling"

trope that Larry trots out with varying amplitude and frequency.

I find this line of argument to be confusing and exasperating.

Here is the issues:

What are you trying to achieve? What is the best way to achieve this?

Rather than opening up this thread to a global discussion of all the issues we've been
discussing/arguing for literally years, let's just focus, can we, for the sake of simplicity and
understanding, on the issue of body roll?

There is absolutely nothing that I have read or heard anywhere in the context of "TI" which states
that "rolling like a log" is used as a drill to prepare you for swimming in an entirely different
way when you race. Nowhere does it state that the hips should remain relatively flat in the water
when you are trying to swim fast (among other things, this makes the kick more efficient, which is
why, I think, Ian Thorpe swims in this manner). In point of fact, "TI" literature has stated (as
quoted by others on this newsgroup) that kicking is more effective when the lower body is constantly
rolling back and forth in a wide arch. So if "rolling like a log" is simply a "drill" for coiling
and uncoiling like Tiger Woods and Ian Thorpe, then why not state this? How many "TI" trained
swimmers get the take home message that rolling like a log is simply a stepping stone to coiling and
uncoiling?

I surmise from Donal's comment here and from Terry Laughlin's comments of this past Winter, that
"TI" methods are simply drills which prepare swimmers to swim in entirely different ways when they
are actually racing. So this pretty much "covers" them in the case of almost any fact, insight, or
discovery which is contradictory to their points of view.

By this reasoning, "hiding the head" in practice is a perfectly logical way to "drill" for lifting
the head in competition.

With respect to the comments concerning stroke frequency and stroke length, we've been arguing this
for years. I have consistently agreed that the most ideal way to swim is by combining a long stroke
with a great kick: the models being Popov, Thorpe, Erik Vendt, Larsen Jensen, and (in an albeit
unconventional manner) Grant Hackett. However, I have consistently taken the position (and again
re-affirm this) that the most effective way to swim in the absence of a proficient kick, is to swim
with a more rapid stroke rate. The evidence supporting my point of view is quite overwhelming, to
anyone who observes how kickers swim versus how non-kickers swim at elite levels. From the point of
view Yanai-style research, what needs to be factored into the overall equation is the disadvantage
of losing forward momentum through infrequent stroking (inceased interval between successive
applications of propulsive force), in the absence of kicking to maintain momentum.

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

I find this line of argument to be confusing and exasperating.

Shucks.

Quoted message said:

Rather than opening up this thread to a global discussion of all the issues we've been
discussing/arguing for literally years, let's just focus, can we, for the sake of simplicity and
understanding, on the issue of body roll?

When I'm doing a TI drill, I try to roll 180 degrees; other than that, I don't really worry about
it. If my shoulders rotate more than my hips in a race, so be it.

Quoted message said:

I surmise from Donal's comment here and from Terry Laughlin's comments of this past Winter, that
"TI" methods are simply drills which prepare swimmers to swim in entirely different ways when they
are actually racing.

That is almost correct. TI trains swimmers for a weekend. They teach them good balance, streamlining
and some drills that will keep reinforcing those ideas. Just as Popov and Klim swim noticably
different styles despite having the same coach, so will TI graduates use those basic drills but
develop individually.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Donal Fagan
<Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com> writes:

<Snipped>

Having gone through some of the TI stuff, mostly via reading and self coaching, I can only
give my impression of what "rolling Like a log" meant to me. When reading "roll like a log"
I in no way interpreted it to mean "keep shoulders and hips inline" For the most part the
roll like a log was used in context of holding a straight axis roll. Rolling around the
spine or not "fish tailing" I can't recall in any book or article where "roll like a log"
was used in a context of stroke initiation. On the other hand I read several TI articles and
books that stressed using the hips as anchors initiating the roll with the hips, which BTW
sound eerily similar to your Tiger Woods golf swing. Maybe I'm just inordinately intutive
but what I pulled from teh TI stuff sounds alot like what you are suggesting and please
correct me if I'm misinterpreting you.

1) roll like a log - Around a center axis
2) Initiate with the hips then snap "Uncoil" for the stroke. I was actually told to "Roll
with authority"

Without doing the above I'm not quite sure how anyone could recruit the core muscles of the
back and abdomen, which as far as I know is also pushed very strongly by TI. Seems if one
were to truely roll like a log that all stroke propulsion would be coming from the arms
only, Like paddeling on a surfboard. In which case rolling at all would be moot.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

That's precisely the point; perhaps you should "worry" about it! If the paradigm for fast swimming
is coiling and uncoiling, rather than log rolling, perhaps you should be practicing coiling and
uncoiling, rather than log rolling.

If, perhaps, whatever. Coach Monique didn't see anything wrong with my stroke.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

(Larry Weisenthal) said:

The deal with the Tiger Woods golf swing dates to an article I read in Sports Illustrated a number
of years ago. It said that the reason Tiger's drives were so long, relative to his slender stature,
is that the other golf pros tended to rotate their shoulders not much beyond the rotation of their
hips, while Tiger's shoulders rotated to a markedly greater degree than his hips. I got into a
little private debate with Terry Laughlin at the time. His position was that, to his eye, Tiger's
shoulders and hips seemed to move in concert. In the TI video I have of Laughlin swimming (not
drilling; swimming), he rolls back and forth, exactly like a log. This is the way body position is
depicted in TI literature. It derives, I think, from the concept of "skating" on the side. I think
that it's pretty clear that TI did not formerly promote the concept that the hips should be
relatively flat in the water, while the shoulders coil and uncoil to a much greater extent. If
there has been a change in thinking, or the institution of drills to teach this skill, then I just
haven't seen them, as yet.

I'm not sure about an actual teaching , drill or conversation from TI that specifically
promotes the idea of not rotating the shoulders seperately from hips. As I stated before it
was explained to me to actaully snap the hips, and allow the power generated in the core to
be transfered through the shoulders and arms. Honestly if I had heard or thought that TI or
anyone associated with TI was promoting that idea I woudl have staunchly apposed or at least
strongly questioned the idea. For the most part every sports activity from swinging a
racquet, bat or running and swimming uses a similar core body propulsion. Golfers to my
knowledgestart the swing with the hip in essence preloading the swing. The same would follow
for swimming. Initiate with the hip and "Uncoil" the stroke. As far as the hips laying
flatter than the shoulders again this seems to me only to make sense particularly at a
faster pace. Preload the stroke with the hip, "snap" or "uncoil" the stroke which will
overotate the shoulders past teh hips. Reverse in the other direction. Unless the hips
follow the shoulders back to there "overotated" position the hips will never rotate as far
as the shoudlers.

~Matt

Quoted message said:

From Mjuric

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On the other hand I read several TI articles and books that

stressed using the hips as anchors initiating the roll with the hips, which BTW sound eerily
similar to your Tiger Woods golf swing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe I'm just inordinately intutive but what I pulled from

teh TI stuff sounds alot like what you are suggesting and please correct me if I'm misinterpreting
you.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Larry Weisenthal

Certitude is poison; curiosity is life

[email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

The amplitude of hip rotation vis a vis shoulder rotation is something else we've been debating on
this newsgroup for years. The issue is whether or not the hips and body and shoulder should roll
as a unit, analogous to a log (as taught by "TI" and some others), or whether there should be
disproportionately large shoulder rotation, relative to hip rotation (analogous to the Tiger Woods
golf swing or the Ian Thorpe freestyle).

And, when expert swimmers go faster, do they do this by increasing the amplitude of hip and/or
shoulder roll? Or do they rotate more frequently and maintain the same amplitude of rotation? Or
do they rotate more frequently and decrease the amplitude of rotation?

My favorite swimming biomechanicist, Dr. Yanai, has found that, as expert swimmers go faster:

1. Frequency of back and forth rotation increases.
2. Amplitude of shoulder rotation increases, relative to hip rotation.
3. Amplitude of hip rotation decreases markedly. As the net amplitude of shoulder rotation is
equal to the amplitude of hip rotation plus the amplitude of shoulder rotation, relative to hip
rotation, the absolute amount of shoulder rotation decreases...i.e. the shoulders are rotating
more, but the "platform" to which they are attached, namely the hips, rotate much less.

I think that this shows that what Tiger does with his golf swing is similar to what expert
swimmers do when they want to maximize their speed. Both increase their shoulder rotation,
relative to their hip rotation, using hip rotation only as a starting point for the (greater
amount of) shoulder rotation, which is really what provides the power for the stroke.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

Just as an aside, not totally on the topic of this thread, Dr. Yanai has studied the forces
responsible for generating bodyroll. His findings are pertinent to the question of whether hip
rotation should be active or passive. I couldn't obtain all of his articles, nor could I completely
understand those articles I did obtain. However, it's my impression that his conclusion is that the
main force generating bodyroll is a torque resulting from the position of the arms. This is why when
doing the skating-on-your-side drill, you are naturally on your side. If I correctly understand his
result, it would be inconsistent with the advice given on this newsgroup: "the conductor leads the
orchestra and the hips lead the stroke". Any comments?