Would cutting milk delay lactic buildup?

Halterb said:

I wondered if cutting back on milk consumption (containing
lactic acid) might delay the lactic acid threshhold.

Any thoughts?

Milk contains lactose, a sugar which is broken down in
the gut to

glucose galactose

Not the same thing as lactic acid.

Lyle

Lyle wrote:

<Milk contains lactose, a sugar which is broken down in the
gut to glucose galactose Not the same thing as lactic acid.>

Hmmmm. I suppose we'd have to get into chemistry, or biology
(on the way to physiology). My understanding is that lactic
acid's origination is in milk (lactose being the sugar as
Lyle correctly notes). Old milk, in the process of turning
sour, is converting its lactose into lactic acid. Of course,
some people buy and drink "sour milk" or use it in cooking
(sourmilk rolls, etc.). Then there's cottage cheese, another
dairy product, and yogurt, both of which already contain
lactic acid.

So, if lactic acid originates in lactose, then it would seem
if the body had less lactose to work with (or dairy
products), there would be less lactic acid ending up in the
muscles. At the very least, cutting back on cottage cheese
and yogurt could directly reduce ready-to-use lactic acid.

Or, there may be entirely other processes at work as
muscles tire. In any case, there might be something here to
look into.

Halterb said:

I wondered if cutting back on milk consumption (containing
lactic acid) might delay the lactic acid threshhold.

Any thoughts?

There were some studies that purported to show how
ingesting sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) would reduce
lactic acid buildup. The following, from www.drmirkin.com,
discusses this:

BICARBONATE NOT ENHANCE PERFORMANCE Report #6394 12/19/94

In an effort to increase their endurance, some athletes
drink sodium bicarbonate solutions before a competition. A
recent study in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise
shows that the only benefit from sodium bicarbonate is that
it helps your body to retain water.

This recent study explains the flaw in the previous studies
that showed that sodium bicarbonate solutions prolong
endurance. The sodium in sodium bicarbonate helps the body
to hold extra water and extra water can increase endurance.
The bicarbonate does not offer any additional benefit.

The theory behind the previous research was that /during
intense exercise, your muscles do not get all the oxygen
that they need, causing lactic acid to accumulate in muscles
and spill over into the bloodstream. This causes the muscles
to hurt and burn and it causes you to feel tired. Doctors
felt that the base, sodium bicarbonate, would neutralize the
acid, lactic acid, and help you to exercise longer. However,
fatigue during exercise is much more complicated than that.
Researchers at the University of Washington found no
difference between sodium bicarbonate and sodium chloride
which is table salt. That means that it is the sodium, and
not the bicarbonate, that prolongs endurance. Salt helps
your body to retain water/ and exercise constantly deprives
your body of water. It is impossible to drink enough water
to replace all the water that you lose during intense
exercise, so anything that helps you to retain water will
increase your endurance. When I go on bicycle rides lasting
several hours, I drink water and eat heavily salted peanuts.
The salt keeps the water in my system and helps me to
exercise longer.

By Gabe Mirkin, M.D., for CBS Radio News

1) Kozak-Collins K, Burke E, Schoene RB. Sodium
bicarbonate ingestion does not improve performance
in woman cyclists. Medicine and Science in Sports
and Exercise. 1994(Dec);26(12):1510-1515.

2) Gao and Costill Eur J of Appl Physiology 1988;58:171-
174.

3) Med and Sci in Sports and Exercise. 19(2);S67-
S68:1987(April) Papers number 400, 401, 402 and
403.

Lactate in milk is not the same as lactic acid.

"Halterb" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040628083123.04588.00000690@mb-
m10.aol.com...

Quoted message said:

I wondered if cutting back on milk consumption (containing
lactic acid)

might

Quoted message said:

delay the lactic acid threshhold.

Any thoughts?

Halterb said:

Lyle wrote:

<Milk contains lactose, a sugar which is broken down in
the gut to glucose galactose Not the same thing as
lactic acid.>

Hmmmm. I suppose we'd have to get into chemistry, or
biology (on the way to physiology). My understanding is
that lactic acid's origination is in milk (lactose being
the sugar as Lyle correctly notes). Old milk, in the
process of turning sour, is converting its lactose into
lactic acid. Of course, some people buy and drink "sour
milk" or use it in cooking (sourmilk rolls, etc.). Then
there's cottage cheese, another dairy product, and yogurt,
both of which already contain lactic acid.

So, if lactic acid originates in lactose, then it would
seem if the body had less lactose to work with (or dairy
products), there would be less lactic acid ending up in
the muscles. At the very least, cutting back on cottage
cheese and yogurt could directly reduce ready-to-use
lactic acid.

Or, there may be entirely other processes at work as
muscles tire. In any case, there might be something here
to look into.

Lactic acid production in muscles has nothing to do
with lactose.

It has to do with anaerobic metabolism of glycogen/glucose
in the muscle (note: this is probably how the lactic acid in
sour milk/yogurt is produces, from anaerobic metabolism of
the glucose).

So during exercise glucose goes through glycolysis,
producing pyruvate as an end product.

If there is sufficient oxygen, the pyruvate gets completely
oxidized to make ATP, producing CO2 and water.

If there is not (i.e. anaerobic metabolism), the pyruvate
gets converted to lactate.

Lactate dissociates into lactic acid and a proton (the
proton being responsible for the burning in the first
place).

Lactose per se has zilch to do with it.

Lyle

Bill said:

Halterb said:

I wondered if cutting back on milk consumption (containing
lactic acid) might delay the lactic acid threshhold.

Any thoughts?

There were some studies that purported to show how
ingesting sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) would reduce
lactic acid buildup. The following, from www.drmirkin.com,
discusses this:

A pretty selective reading of the studies as there are
way more than 3 out there on bicarbonate. The big problem
with bicarb for this purpose is that effective doses tend
to cause major GI upset (read: explosive diarrhea) in
most people.

Dibasic sodium phosphate (4 g/day for 3 days or 8 g/day for
one day before a race) has been shown to lower lactic acid
production. A new compound called citrulline malate may also
have relevance.

Lyle

Quoted message said:

BICARBONATE NOT ENHANCE PERFORMANCE Report #6394 12/19/94

In an effort to increase their endurance, some athletes
drink sodium bicarbonate solutions before a competition. A
recent study in Medicine and Science in Sports and
Exercise shows that the only benefit from sodium
bicarbonate is that it helps your body to retain water.

This recent study explains the flaw in the previous
studies that showed that sodium bicarbonate solutions
prolong endurance. The sodium in sodium bicarbonate helps
the body to hold extra water and extra water can increase
endurance. The bicarbonate does not offer any additional
benefit.

The theory behind the previous research was that /during
intense exercise, your muscles do not get all the oxygen
that they need, causing lactic acid to accumulate in
muscles and spill over into the bloodstream. This causes
the muscles to hurt and burn and it causes you to feel
tired. Doctors felt that the base, sodium bicarbonate,
would neutralize the acid, lactic acid, and help you to
exercise longer. However, fatigue during exercise is much
more complicated than that. Researchers at the University
of Washington found no difference between sodium
bicarbonate and sodium chloride which is table salt. That
means that it is the sodium, and not the bicarbonate, that
prolongs endurance. Salt helps your body to retain water/
and exercise constantly deprives your body of water. It is
impossible to drink enough water to replace all the water
that you lose during intense exercise, so anything that
helps you to retain water will increase your endurance.
When I go on bicycle rides lasting several hours, I drink
water and eat heavily salted peanuts. The salt keeps the
water in my system and helps me to exercise longer.

By Gabe Mirkin, M.D., for CBS Radio News

1) Kozak-Collins K, Burke E, Schoene RB. Sodium
bicarbonate ingestion does not improve
performance in woman cyclists. Medicine and
Science in Sports and Exercise. 1994(Dec);26(12):1510-
1515.

2) Gao and Costill Eur J of Appl Physiology 1988;58:171-
174.

3) Med and Sci in Sports and Exercise. 19(2);S67-
S68:1987(April) Papers number 400, 401, 402 and
403.

[email hidden] (Halterb) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Lyle wrote:

<Milk contains lactose, a sugar which is broken down in
the gut to glucose galactose Not the same thing as
lactic acid.>

Hmmmm. I suppose we'd have to get into chemistry, or
biology (on the way to physiology).

You have no understanding...but it's funny to watch
you try...

Quoted message said:

So, if lactic acid originates in lactose, then it would
seem if the body had less lactose to work with (or dairy
products), there would be less lactic acid ending up in
the muscles.

Only if you eject yogurt directly into your muscles. Might
cause bigger problems than "lactic acid" build up to my way
of thinking.

At the very least, cutting back on cottage cheese and

Quoted message said:

yogurt could directly reduce ready-to-use lactic acid.

Nope. Lyle's on the money. You eat/drink milk sugars and
your body breaks them down into other simple sugars.

So if you think fruit/bread/vegetables and even proteins
and fats (broken down through other mechanisms but all
eventually turn into sugars) will give you lactic acid
build up...you would be correct to your (very wrong) way
of thinking.

Quoted message said:

Or, there may be entirely other processes at work as
muscles tire.

Yeah...it's called lactic acid build up. It because your
body is doing a really good job of doing anaerobic
oxidation in order to keep your body going. Of course, the
by-products of anaerobic oxidation make your muscles hurt
hence the acid name.

In any case,

Quoted message said:

there might be something here to look into.

Nope...not even at all.

Damn, I just realized I typed lactate and not lactose. Damn, need more
sleep.
"Lyle McDonald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Halterb said:

I wondered if cutting back on milk consumption
(containing lactic acid)

might

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

delay the lactic acid threshhold.

Any thoughts?

Milk contains lactose, a sugar which is broken down in
the gut to

glucose galactose

Not the same thing as lactic acid.

Lyle

Actually "bicarb loading" has been shown to be beneficial.
Check PubMed. Sodium citrate might work even better without
as many negative side effects.

"Bill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:2kara9F4p5aU1@uni-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

Halterb said:

I wondered if cutting back on milk consumption
(containing lactic acid) might delay the lactic acid
threshhold.

Any thoughts?

There were some studies that purported to show how
ingesting sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) would reduce
lactic acid buildup. The

following,

Quoted message said:

from www.drmirkin.com, discusses this:

BICARBONATE NOT ENHANCE PERFORMANCE Report #6394 12/19/94

In an effort to increase their endurance, some athletes
drink sodium bicarbonate solutions before a competition. A
recent study in Medicine and Science in Sports and
Exercise shows that the only benefit from sodium
bicarbonate is that it helps your body to retain water.

This recent study explains the flaw in the previous
studies that showed

that

Quoted message said:

sodium bicarbonate solutions prolong endurance. The sodium
in sodium bicarbonate helps the body to hold extra water
and extra water can

increase

Quoted message said:

endurance. The bicarbonate does not offer any additional
benefit.

The theory behind the previous research was that /during
intense exercise, your muscles do not get all the oxygen
that they need, causing lactic acid to accumulate in
muscles and spill over into the bloodstream. This causes
the muscles to hurt and burn and it causes you to feel
tired. Doctors felt that the base, sodium bicarbonate,
would neutralize the acid, lactic acid, and help you to
exercise longer. However, fatigue during exercise is much
more complicated than that. Researchers at the University
of Washington found no difference between sodium
bicarbonate and sodium chloride which

is

Quoted message said:

table salt. That means that it is the sodium, and not the
bicarbonate,

that

Quoted message said:

prolongs endurance. Salt helps your body to retain water/
and exercise constantly deprives your body of water. It
is impossible to drink enough water to replace all the
water that you lose during intense exercise, so anything
that helps you to retain water will increase your
endurance. When

I

Quoted message said:

go on bicycle rides lasting several hours, I drink water
and eat heavily salted peanuts. The salt keeps the water
in my system and helps me to exercise longer.

By Gabe Mirkin, M.D., for CBS Radio News

1) Kozak-Collins K, Burke E, Schoene RB. Sodium
bicarbonate

ingestion

Quoted message said:

does not improve performance in woman cyclists. Medicine
and Science in Sports and Exercise. 1994(Dec);26(12):1510-
1515.

2) Gao and Costill Eur J of Appl Physiology 1988;58:171-
174.

3) Med and Sci in Sports and Exercise. 19(2);S67-
S68:1987(April) Papers number 400, 401, 402 and
403.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sam said:

Lactate in milk is not the same as lactic acid.

BTW, when you're sprinting and your muscles start to burn,
I've discovered that it is not really correct to tell your
training partners that you're lactating. That apparently
means something different, which they find amusing for
some reason.

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Th-
en it was every other day. . . ."
- Homer J. Simpson

"Lyle McDonald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Halterb said:

Lyle wrote:

<Milk contains lactose, a sugar which is broken down in
the gut to glucose galactose Not the same thing as
lactic acid.>

Hmmmm. I suppose we'd have to get into chemistry, or
biology (on the way

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

physiology). My understanding is that lactic acid's
origination is in

milk

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(lactose being the sugar as Lyle correctly notes). Old
milk, in the

process of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

turning sour, is converting its lactose into lactic
acid. Of course,

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people buy and drink "sour milk" or use it in cooking
(sourmilk rolls,

etc.).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Then there's cottage cheese, another dairy product, and
yogurt, both of

which

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

already contain lactic acid.

So, if lactic acid originates in lactose, then it would
seem if the body

had

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

less lactose to work with (or dairy products), there
would be less

lactic acid

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ending up in the muscles. At the very least, cutting
back on cottage

cheese and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

yogurt could directly reduce ready-to-use lactic acid.

Or, there may be entirely other processes at work as
muscles tire. In

any case,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there might be something here to look into.

Lactic acid production in muscles has nothing to do with
lactose.

It has to do with anaerobic metabolism of glycogen/glucose
in the muscle (note: this is probably how the lactic acid
in sour milk/yogurt is produces, from anaerobic metabolism
of the glucose).

So during exercise glucose goes through glycolysis,
producing pyruvate as an end product.

If there is sufficient oxygen, the pyruvate gets
completely oxidized to make ATP, producing CO2 and water.

If there is not (i.e. anaerobic metabolism), the pyruvate
gets converted to lactate.

Pyruvate goes to lactic acid. When lactic acid leaves
the muscle and enters the bloodstream it takes on the
salt form, lactate, and a hydrogen ion is released.

Quoted message said:

Lactate dissociates into lactic acid and a proton
(the proton being responsible for the burning in the
first place).

the other way around.

Quoted message said:

Lactose per se has zilch to do with it.

Lyle

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Actually "bicarb loading" has been shown to be beneficial.
Check PubMed. Sodium citrate might work even better
without as many negative side effects.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. It's not so much the
basicness (to fight the "lactic acid"😉 of the blood that is
helping your muscles as it is the Sodium.

Sodium helps your muscles perform. It's one of 3 salts
involved in muscle contraction. Plus your cells use the
Na+/K+ pump for all sorts of other good stuff.

The problem with excess sodium bicarb (besides that
it's very similar to the experience of swallowing
semen) is that your body works really, really hard to
keep a happy blood pH.

In the case of bicarbonate, the opposing acid H2CO3 will
convert to H20 and CO2. You then lose the CO2 through
respiration. So the acid that would usually help to buffer
your blood is actually escaping.

This means your blood can become to basic.

Fortunately, your body has a solution to keep your blood
from being too basic. It's called an extra renal mechanism
and your body will actively transport the bases across until
corrected.

That would be that explosive diarrhea refered to by a
previous poster.

Plus you will also see an increase in respiration from the
bicarbonate as your body works to return your blood acidity
to a more normal level.

It's a rather strange panting feeling that can occur even
when you are at rest.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There were some studies that purported to show how
ingesting sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) would reduce
lactic acid buildup. The

following,

Quoted message said:

from www.drmirkin.com, discusses this:

BICARBONATE NOT ENHANCE PERFORMANCE Report #6394
12/19/94

In an effort to increase their endurance, some athletes
drink sodium bicarbonate solutions before a competition.
A recent study in Medicine and Science in Sports and
Exercise shows that the only benefit from sodium
bicarbonate is that it helps your body to retain water.

This recent study explains the flaw in the previous
studies that showed

that

Quoted message said:

sodium bicarbonate solutions prolong endurance. The
sodium in sodium bicarbonate helps the body to hold
extra water and extra water can

increase

Quoted message said:

endurance. The bicarbonate does not offer any additional
benefit.

The theory behind the previous research was that /during
intense exercise, your muscles do not get all the oxygen
that they need, causing lactic acid to accumulate in
muscles and spill over into the bloodstream. This causes
the muscles to hurt and burn and it causes you to feel
tired. Doctors felt that the base, sodium bicarbonate,
would neutralize the acid, lactic acid, and help you to
exercise longer. However, fatigue during exercise is
much more complicated than that. Researchers at the
University of Washington found no difference between
sodium bicarbonate and sodium chloride which

is

Quoted message said:

table salt. That means that it is the sodium, and not
the bicarbonate,

that

Quoted message said:

prolongs endurance. Salt helps your body to retain
water/ and exercise constantly deprives your body of
water. It is impossible to drink enough water to replace
all the water that you lose during intense exercise, so
anything that helps you to retain water will increase
your endurance. When

I

Quoted message said:

go on bicycle rides lasting several hours, I drink water
and eat heavily salted peanuts. The salt keeps the water
in my system and helps me to exercise longer.

By Gabe Mirkin, M.D., for CBS Radio News

1) Kozak-Collins K, Burke E, Schoene RB. Sodium
bicarbonate

ingestion

Quoted message said:

does not improve performance in woman cyclists. Medicine
and Science in Sports and Exercise. 1994(Dec);26(12):1510-
1515.

2) Gao and Costill Eur J of Appl Physiology 1988;58:171-
174.

3) Med and Sci in Sports and Exercise. 19(2);S67-
S68:1987(April) Papers number 400, 401, 402 and
403.

Sam said:

"Lyle McDonald" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Halterb said:

Lyle wrote:

<Milk contains lactose, a sugar which is broken down in
the gut to glucose galactose Not the same thing as
lactic acid.>

Hmmmm. I suppose we'd have to get into chemistry, or
biology (on the way

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

physiology). My understanding is that lactic acid's
origination is in

milk

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(lactose being the sugar as Lyle correctly notes). Old
milk, in the

process of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

turning sour, is converting its lactose into lactic acid.
Of course,

some

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people buy and drink "sour milk" or use it in cooking
(sourmilk rolls,

etc.).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Then there's cottage cheese, another dairy product, and
yogurt, both of

which

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

already contain lactic acid.

So, if lactic acid originates in lactose, then it would
seem if the body

had

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

less lactose to work with (or dairy products), there
would be less

lactic acid

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ending up in the muscles. At the very least, cutting back
on cottage

cheese and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

yogurt could directly reduce ready-to-use lactic acid.

Or, there may be entirely other processes at work as
muscles tire. In

any case,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there might be something here to look into.

Lactic acid production in muscles has nothing to do with
lactose.

It has to do with anaerobic metabolism of glycogen/glucose
in the muscle (note: this is probably how the lactic acid
in sour milk/yogurt is produces, from anaerobic metabolism
of the glucose).

So during exercise glucose goes through glycolysis,
producing pyruvate as an end product.

If there is sufficient oxygen, the pyruvate gets
completely oxidized to make ATP, producing CO2 and water.

If there is not (i.e. anaerobic metabolism), the pyruvate
gets converted to lactate.

Pyruvate goes to lactic acid. When lactic acid leaves
the muscle and enters the bloodstream it takes on the
salt form, lactate, and a hydrogen ion is released.

D'oh, whoops. Always get those backwards.

Thanks for the correction.

Lyle

Becca said:

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:-
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Actually "bicarb loading" has been shown to be beneficial.
Check PubMed. Sodium citrate might work even better
without as many negative side effects.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. It's not so much the
basicness (to fight the "lactic acid"😉 of the blood that
is helping your muscles as it is the Sodium.

That's not it. It's increased buffering capacity from
the bicarb.

For example, on a lowcarb diet, the body loses some of this
buffering caapcity (although blood pH stays w/in the normal
range) because keto-acids are being buffered. This means
lactic acid is more poorly dealt with.

Quoted message said:

That would be that explosive diarrhea refered to by a
previous poster.

No. Explosive diarrhea is going to happen at the gut, has
nothing to do with the kidneys.

Lyle

Halterb said:

I wondered if cutting back on milk consumption (containing
lactic acid) might delay the lactic acid threshhold.

Good curious thought, but the answer is no. The lactose in
cow's milk is one of many carbohydrate sugars that we
consume. ALL carbohydrates, not just lactose, get converted
to lactic acid. Choosing one milk or carb source over
another makes no difference. Whether you are eating and
burning lactose, sucrose, glucose, galactose, or fructose,
you make lactic acid as the byproduct of burning them for
muscular activity.

-- Josh Steinberg MD, Syracuse

What have you got to lose? Besides, it's time to stop
nursing off Mom's mams anyway.

Joshua Steinberg said:

Halterb said:

I wondered if cutting back on milk consumption
(containing lactic acid) might delay the lactic acid
threshhold.

Good curious thought, but the answer is no. The lactose in
cow's milk is one of many carbohydrate sugars that we
consume. ALL carbohydrates, not just lactose, get
converted to lactic acid. Choosing one milk or carb source
over another makes no difference. Whether you are eating
and burning lactose, sucrose, glucose, galactose, or
fructose, you make lactic acid as the byproduct of burning
them for muscular activity.

-- Josh Steinberg MD, Syracuse

Proving again that MD's have no business talking about
exercise.

Lyle

Lyle McDonald said:

Proving again that MD's have no business talking about
exercise.

Huh?

"Lyle McDonald" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Proving again that MD's have no business talking about
exercise.

Not *every* MD. Josh is a twit, that's all.