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Would-be mums told to avoid soya

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
23 June 2005
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25 June 2005
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TC
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  1. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7559

    Would-be mums told to avoid soya
    13:05 22 June 2005
    NewScientist.com news service
    Michael Le Page, Copenhagen
    Women trying to conceive should consider not consuming soya for the few
    days around ovulation, according to a UK researcher. Her study shows a
    compound found in soya causes human sperm in a dish to "pop their
    caps" prematurely, rendering them useless. But it remains unclear
    whether eating soya has any actual effect on fertility.

    Lynn Fraser of King's College London studied the effect of very low
    levels of genistein - a compound found in leguminous plants such as
    soya - on human sperm in a liquid medium similar to that found in the
    female reproductive tract. "It was very striking," she says.
    "Within an hour a third of the sperm had gone all the way."

    This means that the genistein had prematurely triggered the sperm to
    undergo what is known as the acrosome reaction. The acrosome is the cap
    on the tip of sperm that contains the enzymes needed to penetrate the
    thick outer layer of the female's egg once the sperm has reached it.
    If it is lost early, sperm have no chance of fertilising an egg.

    Fraser says other studies have shown that genistein gets into the blood
    of people who eat soya products. She believes that in women, it could
    end up in the reproductive tract and damage their chances of
    conceiving. "From what we have seen, women should restrict their diet
    for a short time over the period of ovulation."

    Effects on males
    But other experts are not convinced such advice is necessary. James
    Kumi-Diaka of Florida Atlantic University, US, says his team has also
    found that genistein has a dramatic effect on sperm - so much so that
    he has toyed with the idea of incorporating genistein into condoms as a
    contraceptive.

    His team has also found that when genistein is injected into male rats
    three times a week, it reduces the size of the litters they father,
    from about 11 pups at most to five. Even low doses had an effect, he
    says. That would seem to hint that men, too, should worry about eating
    soya when trying to father children.

    But Kumi-Diaka stops short of such advice. "It depends on so many
    things," he says. "How the food is prepared, how often you eat it,
    whether it is eaten alone." If genistein really does affect
    fertility, Kumi-Diaka points out, you would expect to see fertility
    problems in Asian countries, where many people consume soya products
    daily - but there is no such evidence.

    Combining chemicals
    Fraser first reported that genistein triggers the acrosome reaction in
    mouse sperm in 2003. In other studies on mouse sperm, she has found two
    other chemicals can also trigger the acrosome reaction. One, called
    8-prenylnaringenin, is found in hops and is thus is present in some
    beers, but Fraser does not know what levels are typical. The second
    chemical, nonylphenol, is found in products such paints, pesticides and
    cleaning products. "There could be a whole range of chemicals with
    this effect," she says.

    What is more, Fraser found that combinations of these chemicals, which
    she calls xenobiotics, had a much greater effect than any one alone.
    "Given the likelihood that we are exposed to several xenobiotics at
    any one time, we need to investigate their possible effects on
    fertility as quickly as possible."

    Her latest studies were presented at a meeting of the European Society
    for Human Reproduction and Embryology in Copenhagen, Denmark, on
    Wednesday.

    --------

    Soy is not real food. And it ain't a healthy food, by anyone's
    standards.

    TC

  2. TC said:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7559

    Would-be mums told to avoid soya
    13:05 22 June 2005
    NewScientist.com news service
    Michael Le Page, Copenhagen
    Women trying to conceive should consider not consuming soya for the few
    days around ovulation, according to a UK researcher. Her study shows a
    compound found in soya causes human sperm in a dish to "pop their
    caps" prematurely, rendering them useless. But it remains unclear
    whether eating soya has any actual effect on fertility.

    Lynn Fraser of King's College London studied the effect of very low
    levels of genistein - a compound found in leguminous plants such as
    soya - on human sperm in a liquid medium similar to that found in the
    female reproductive tract. "It was very striking," she says.
    "Within an hour a third of the sperm had gone all the way."

    This means that the genistein had prematurely triggered the sperm to
    undergo what is known as the acrosome reaction. The acrosome is the cap
    on the tip of sperm that contains the enzymes needed to penetrate the
    thick outer layer of the female's egg once the sperm has reached it.
    If it is lost early, sperm have no chance of fertilising an egg.

    Fraser says other studies have shown that genistein gets into the blood
    of people who eat soya products. She believes that in women, it could
    end up in the reproductive tract and damage their chances of
    conceiving. "From what we have seen, women should restrict their diet
    for a short time over the period of ovulation."

    Effects on males
    But other experts are not convinced such advice is necessary. James
    Kumi-Diaka of Florida Atlantic University, US, says his team has also
    found that genistein has a dramatic effect on sperm - so much so that
    he has toyed with the idea of incorporating genistein into condoms as a
    contraceptive.

    His team has also found that when genistein is injected into male rats
    three times a week, it reduces the size of the litters they father,
    from about 11 pups at most to five. Even low doses had an effect, he
    says. That would seem to hint that men, too, should worry about eating
    soya when trying to father children.

    But Kumi-Diaka stops short of such advice. "It depends on so many
    things," he says. "How the food is prepared, how often you eat it,
    whether it is eaten alone." If genistein really does affect
    fertility, Kumi-Diaka points out, you would expect to see fertility
    problems in Asian countries, where many people consume soya products
    daily - but there is no such evidence.

    Combining chemicals
    Fraser first reported that genistein triggers the acrosome reaction in
    mouse sperm in 2003. In other studies on mouse sperm, she has found two
    other chemicals can also trigger the acrosome reaction. One, called
    8-prenylnaringenin, is found in hops and is thus is present in some
    beers, but Fraser does not know what levels are typical. The second
    chemical, nonylphenol, is found in products such paints, pesticides and
    cleaning products. "There could be a whole range of chemicals with
    this effect," she says.

    What is more, Fraser found that combinations of these chemicals, which
    she calls xenobiotics, had a much greater effect than any one alone.
    "Given the likelihood that we are exposed to several xenobiotics at
    any one time, we need to investigate their possible effects on
    fertility as quickly as possible."

    Her latest studies were presented at a meeting of the European Society
    for Human Reproduction and Embryology in Copenhagen, Denmark, on
    Wednesday.

    --------

    Soy is not real food. And it ain't a healthy food, by anyone's
    standards.

    TC

    New method of birth control?

    Well perhaps not:

    "If genistein really does affect fertility, Kumi-Diaka points out, you
    would expect to see fertility problems in Asian countries, where many
    people consume soya products daily - but there is no such evidence."

    Zee

  3. Quoted message said:
    TC said:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7559

    Would-be mums told to avoid soya
    13:05 22 June 2005
    NewScientist.com news service
    Michael Le Page, Copenhagen
    Women trying to conceive should consider not consuming soya for the few
    days around ovulation, according to a UK researcher. Her study shows a
    compound found in soya causes human sperm in a dish to "pop their
    caps" prematurely, rendering them useless. But it remains unclear
    whether eating soya has any actual effect on fertility.

    Lynn Fraser of King's College London studied the effect of very low
    levels of genistein - a compound found in leguminous plants such as
    soya - on human sperm in a liquid medium similar to that found in the
    female reproductive tract. "It was very striking," she says.
    "Within an hour a third of the sperm had gone all the way."

    This means that the genistein had prematurely triggered the sperm to
    undergo what is known as the acrosome reaction. The acrosome is the cap
    on the tip of sperm that contains the enzymes needed to penetrate the
    thick outer layer of the female's egg once the sperm has reached it.
    If it is lost early, sperm have no chance of fertilising an egg.

    Fraser says other studies have shown that genistein gets into the blood
    of people who eat soya products. She believes that in women, it could
    end up in the reproductive tract and damage their chances of
    conceiving. "From what we have seen, women should restrict their diet
    for a short time over the period of ovulation."

    Effects on males
    But other experts are not convinced such advice is necessary. James
    Kumi-Diaka of Florida Atlantic University, US, says his team has also
    found that genistein has a dramatic effect on sperm - so much so that
    he has toyed with the idea of incorporating genistein into condoms as a
    contraceptive.

    His team has also found that when genistein is injected into male rats
    three times a week, it reduces the size of the litters they father,
    from about 11 pups at most to five. Even low doses had an effect, he
    says. That would seem to hint that men, too, should worry about eating
    soya when trying to father children.

    But Kumi-Diaka stops short of such advice. "It depends on so many
    things," he says. "How the food is prepared, how often you eat it,
    whether it is eaten alone." If genistein really does affect
    fertility, Kumi-Diaka points out, you would expect to see fertility
    problems in Asian countries, where many people consume soya products
    daily - but there is no such evidence.

    Combining chemicals
    Fraser first reported that genistein triggers the acrosome reaction in
    mouse sperm in 2003. In other studies on mouse sperm, she has found two
    other chemicals can also trigger the acrosome reaction. One, called
    8-prenylnaringenin, is found in hops and is thus is present in some
    beers, but Fraser does not know what levels are typical. The second
    chemical, nonylphenol, is found in products such paints, pesticides and
    cleaning products. "There could be a whole range of chemicals with
    this effect," she says.

    What is more, Fraser found that combinations of these chemicals, which
    she calls xenobiotics, had a much greater effect than any one alone.
    "Given the likelihood that we are exposed to several xenobiotics at
    any one time, we need to investigate their possible effects on
    fertility as quickly as possible."

    Her latest studies were presented at a meeting of the European Society
    for Human Reproduction and Embryology in Copenhagen, Denmark, on
    Wednesday.

    --------

    Soy is not real food. And it ain't a healthy food, by anyone's
    standards.

    TC

    New method of birth control?

    Well perhaps not:

    "If genistein really does affect fertility, Kumi-Diaka points out, you
    would expect to see fertility problems in Asian countries, where many
    people consume soya products daily - but there is no such evidence."

    Zee

    In Asian countries they eat only fermented soy. Fermentation
    neutralizes phyto-toxins. Westerners eat or drink (as in "soymilk"😉 the
    soy bean without properly fermenting it to neutralize the phyto-toxins.

    And in Asian countries much of the soy eaten is properly fermented and
    used only as a condiment (as in soya sauce, Miso and Natto). They only
    use soy as a protein replacement irregularly or when there is a
    shortage of real protein foods.

    Soy is not real food, especially when it is just ground up and
    consumed. You must neutralize the phyto-toxins.

    TC

  4. On 23 Jun 2005 11:07:50 -0700, TC wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on
    sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    [89 quoted lines suppressed]

    In Asian countries they eat only fermented soy.

    Hmm... At a Chinese restaurant I ate soy noodles.
    They also use soy sprouts.

    Quoted message said:

    Fermentation
    neutralizes phyto-toxins.

    So does cooking, doesn't it?

    Quoted message said:

    Westerners eat or drink (as in "soymilk"😉 the
    soy bean without properly fermenting it to neutralize the phyto-toxins.
    And in Asian countries much of the soy eaten is properly fermented and
    used only as a condiment (as in soya sauce, Miso and Natto). They only
    use soy as a protein replacement irregularly or when there is a
    shortage of real protein foods.

    Soy is not real food, especially when it is just ground up and
    consumed. You must neutralize the phyto-toxins.

    Well, I guess you need to cook some other legumes (red beans for instance)
    as well 🙂

  5. Enrico C said:

    On 23 Jun 2005 11:07:50 -0700, TC wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on
    sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    [89 quoted lines suppressed]

    In Asian countries they eat only fermented soy.

    Hmm... At a Chinese restaurant I ate soy noodles.
    They also use soy sprouts.

    In China? Did the soy noodles originate from China? Produced the
    traditional way?

    Soy noodles are made with wheat and soy flours, and they were developed
    in the West, the US specifically.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Fermentation
    neutralizes phyto-toxins.

    So does cooking, doesn't it?

    Nope. You wish.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Westerners eat or drink (as in "soymilk"😉 the
    soy bean without properly fermenting it to neutralize the phyto-toxins.
    And in Asian countries much of the soy eaten is properly fermented and
    used only as a condiment (as in soya sauce, Miso and Natto). They only
    use soy as a protein replacement irregularly or when there is a
    shortage of real protein foods.

    Soy is not real food, especially when it is just ground up and
    consumed. You must neutralize the phyto-toxins.

    Well, I guess you need to cook some other legumes (red beans for instance)
    as well 🙂

    Could be. I haven't looked into it..... yet.

    TC

  6. On 23 Jun 2005 11:58:11 -0700, TC wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on
    sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:
    Enrico C said:

    On 23 Jun 2005 11:07:50 -0700, TC wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on
    sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] wrote:
    > [89 quoted lines suppressed]

    In Asian countries they eat only fermented soy.

    Hmm... At a Chinese restaurant I ate soy noodles.
    They also use soy sprouts.

    In China? Did the soy noodles originate from China? Produced the
    traditional way?

    Soy noodles are made with wheat and soy flours, and they were developed
    in the West, the US specifically.

    Correct, according to "A Primer on Soy, Questions and Concerns About Soy
    Answered by the Soyfoods Association of North America"
    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1

    "In the United States, the introduction of the soybean is documented in
    Georgia, where Samuel Bowen first planted soybeans on his plantation in the
    1760s, and patented processes to make soy sauce and vermicelli (soy
    noodles). Almost two hundred and fifty years later, pastas made with soy
    were introduced into the American market."

    ====

    Even so, soy noodles is a 250-year-old food, lots of people have eaten it
    for years, haven't they?

    Also, tofu is a traditional Chinese food, and I gather it's made from
    soymilk...

    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1
    "Tofu is the curd formed by adding certain salts to soymilk, and is not
    fermented."

    Here is what the soy people say...

    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1
    Soyfoods containing isoflavones provide a variety of health benefits.
    Lowered risks of certain cancers, cardiovascular disease, and osteoporosis
    have all been attributed to soyfoods containing isoflavones. Isoflavones
    are described as phytoestrogens (plant estrogens) because their structure
    and metabolism resembles that of human estrogens. These plant estrogens are
    much weaker than naturally circulating human estrogens and they have
    approximately 1/1000th of the biological activity of synthetic estrogens.
    Some groups have raised concerns about fertility of soyfood consumers.
    People consuming diets rich in phytoestrogens from soy have not
    shown signs of infertility (J Nutr, 2002).

    ====

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Fermentation
    neutralizes phyto-toxins.

    So does cooking, doesn't it?

    Nope. You wish.

    Well, I am not *that* fond, neither expert, of soy.
    Perhaps, they recommend cooking soybeans for some different reason...

    http://missvickie.com/howto/beans/beantoxins.htm
    "Soya Soy beans: Contain an anti-trypsin factor (or trypsin inhibitor)
    which prevents the assimilation of the amino acid methionine. Soya beans
    also require careful cooking to ensure destruction of this factor."

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Westerners eat or drink (as in "soymilk"😉 the
    soy bean without properly fermenting it to neutralize the phyto-toxins.
    And in Asian countries much of the soy eaten is properly fermented and
    used only as a condiment (as in soya sauce, Miso and Natto). They only
    use soy as a protein replacement irregularly or when there is a
    shortage of real protein foods.

    Soy is not real food, especially when it is just ground up and
    consumed. You must neutralize the phyto-toxins.

    Well, I guess you need to cook some other legumes (red beans for instance)
    as well 🙂

    Could be. I haven't looked into it..... yet.

    So they say...
    http://missvickie.com/howto/beans/beantoxins.htm
    "Red kidney beans: Incidents of food poisoning have been reported
    associated with the consumption of raw or undercooked red kidney beans.
    Symptoms may develop after eating only four raw beans and include nausea,
    vomiting and abdominal pain followed by diarrhrea. For this reason, kidney
    beans must not be sprouted. A naturally occurring hemaglutin is responsible
    for the illness, but can be destroyed by high temperature cooking, making
    the beans completely safe to eat. The beans must boil for 10 minutes to
    destroy the toxin."

    ===

    Anyway, I once ate a full dish of raw red Borlotti beans. Afterwards, I was
    still alive and kicking! Not that I recommend doing that 🙂

    --
    Enrico C

  7. Enrico C said:

    On 23 Jun 2005 11:58:11 -0700, TC wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on
    sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:
    Enrico C said:

    On 23 Jun 2005 11:07:50 -0700, TC wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on
    sci.med.nutrition :

    > [email hidden] wrote:
    >> [89 quoted lines suppressed]
    >
    > In Asian countries they eat only fermented soy.

    Hmm... At a Chinese restaurant I ate soy noodles.
    They also use soy sprouts.

    In China? Did the soy noodles originate from China? Produced the
    traditional way?

    Soy noodles are made with wheat and soy flours, and they were developed
    in the West, the US specifically.

    Correct, according to "A Primer on Soy, Questions and Concerns About Soy
    Answered by the Soyfoods Association of North America"
    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1

    "In the United States, the introduction of the soybean is documented in
    Georgia, where Samuel Bowen first planted soybeans on his plantation in the
    1760s, and patented processes to make soy sauce and vermicelli (soy
    noodles). Almost two hundred and fifty years later, pastas made with soy
    were introduced into the American market."

    ====

    Even so, soy noodles is a 250-year-old food, lots of people have eaten it
    for years, haven't they?

    Also, tofu is a traditional Chinese food, and I gather it's made from
    soymilk...

    As I said, soy is not used as a protein replacement except very
    irregularly and usually when times are tough. Tofu is not fermented.
    Most of the soy products used traditionally in Asia are fermented and
    used as condiments like soya sauce, miso and natto.

    Tofu or soy in the US has not been used as a food to any large extent
    until the last couple of decades and the marketters had been waging an
    uphill battle for people to use tofu as a food item. Even today, most
    people will tell you that tofu sucks no matter how it is prepared.

    Quoted message said:


    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1
    "Tofu is the curd formed by adding certain salts to soymilk, and is not
    fermented."

    Here is what the soy people say...

    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1
    Soyfoods containing isoflavones provide a variety of health benefits.
    Lowered risks of certain cancers, cardiovascular disease, and osteoporosis
    have all been attributed to soyfoods containing isoflavones. Isoflavones
    are described as phytoestrogens (plant estrogens) because their structure
    and metabolism resembles that of human estrogens. These plant estrogens are
    much weaker than naturally circulating human estrogens and they have
    approximately 1/1000th of the biological activity of synthetic estrogens.
    Some groups have raised concerns about fertility of soyfood consumers.
    People consuming diets rich in phytoestrogens from soy have not
    shown signs of infertility (J Nutr, 2002).

    Of course they would say that. hat else would they say? Their trying to
    sell a product. If they didn't they'd be out of business.

    Quoted message said:


    ====

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    > Fermentation
    > neutralizes phyto-toxins.

    So does cooking, doesn't it?

    Nope. You wish.

    Well, I am not *that* fond, neither expert, of soy.
    Perhaps, they recommend cooking soybeans for some different reason...

    http://missvickie.com/howto/beans/beantoxins.htm
    "Soya Soy beans: Contain an anti-trypsin factor (or trypsin inhibitor)
    which prevents the assimilation of the amino acid methionine. Soya beans
    also require careful cooking to ensure destruction of this factor."

    And fermentation for other phyto-toxins.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Westerners eat or drink (as in "soymilk"😉 the
    > soy bean without properly fermenting it to neutralize the phyto-toxins.
    > And in Asian countries much of the soy eaten is properly fermented and
    > used only as a condiment (as in soya sauce, Miso and Natto). They only
    > use soy as a protein replacement irregularly or when there is a
    > shortage of real protein foods.
    >
    > Soy is not real food, especially when it is just ground up and
    > consumed. You must neutralize the phyto-toxins.

    Well, I guess you need to cook some other legumes (red beans for instance)
    as well 🙂

    Could be. I haven't looked into it..... yet.

    So they say...
    http://missvickie.com/howto/beans/beantoxins.htm
    "Red kidney beans: Incidents of food poisoning have been reported
    associated with the consumption of raw or undercooked red kidney beans.
    Symptoms may develop after eating only four raw beans and include nausea,
    vomiting and abdominal pain followed by diarrhrea. For this reason, kidney
    beans must not be sprouted. A naturally occurring hemaglutin is responsible
    for the illness, but can be destroyed by high temperature cooking, making
    the beans completely safe to eat. The beans must boil for 10 minutes to
    destroy the toxin."

    ===

    Anyway, I once ate a full dish of raw red Borlotti beans. Afterwards, I was
    still alive and kicking! Not that I recommend doing that 🙂

    --
    Enrico C

    Well, try eating a full dish every day of your life and see what
    happens. Some people eat tofu every day and they pay for it over time.

    Soy is not real food.

    TC

  8. Enrico C said:

    On 23 Jun 2005 11:58:11 -0700, TC wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on
    sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:
    Enrico C said:

    On 23 Jun 2005 11:07:50 -0700, TC wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on
    sci.med.nutrition :

    > [email hidden] wrote:
    >> [89 quoted lines suppressed]
    >
    > In Asian countries they eat only fermented soy.

    Hmm... At a Chinese restaurant I ate soy noodles.
    They also use soy sprouts.

    In China? Did the soy noodles originate from China? Produced the
    traditional way?

    Soy noodles are made with wheat and soy flours, and they were developed
    in the West, the US specifically.

    Correct, according to "A Primer on Soy, Questions and Concerns About Soy
    Answered by the Soyfoods Association of North America"
    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1

    "In the United States, the introduction of the soybean is documented in
    Georgia, where Samuel Bowen first planted soybeans on his plantation in the
    1760s, and patented processes to make soy sauce and vermicelli (soy
    noodles). Almost two hundred and fifty years later, pastas made with soy
    were introduced into the American market."

    ====

    Even so, soy noodles is a 250-year-old food, lots of people have eaten it
    for years, haven't they?

    Also, tofu is a traditional Chinese food, and I gather it's made from
    soymilk...

    As I said, soy is not used as a protein replacement except very
    irregularly and usually when times are tough. Tofu is not fermented.
    Most of the soy products used traditionally in Asia are fermented and
    used as condiments like soya sauce, miso and natto.

    Tofu or soy in the US has not been used as a food to any large extent
    until the last couple of decades and the marketters had been waging an
    uphill battle for people to use tofu as a food item. Even today, most
    people will tell you that tofu sucks no matter how it is prepared.

    Quoted message said:


    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1
    "Tofu is the curd formed by adding certain salts to soymilk, and is not
    fermented."

    Here is what the soy people say...

    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1
    Soyfoods containing isoflavones provide a variety of health benefits.
    Lowered risks of certain cancers, cardiovascular disease, and osteoporosis
    have all been attributed to soyfoods containing isoflavones. Isoflavones
    are described as phytoestrogens (plant estrogens) because their structure
    and metabolism resembles that of human estrogens. These plant estrogens are
    much weaker than naturally circulating human estrogens and they have
    approximately 1/1000th of the biological activity of synthetic estrogens.
    Some groups have raised concerns about fertility of soyfood consumers.
    People consuming diets rich in phytoestrogens from soy have not
    shown signs of infertility (J Nutr, 2002).

    Of course they would say that. hat else would they say? Their trying to
    sell a product. If they didn't they'd be out of business.

    Quoted message said:


    ====

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    > Fermentation
    > neutralizes phyto-toxins.

    So does cooking, doesn't it?

    Nope. You wish.

    Well, I am not *that* fond, neither expert, of soy.
    Perhaps, they recommend cooking soybeans for some different reason...

    http://missvickie.com/howto/beans/beantoxins.htm
    "Soya Soy beans: Contain an anti-trypsin factor (or trypsin inhibitor)
    which prevents the assimilation of the amino acid methionine. Soya beans
    also require careful cooking to ensure destruction of this factor."

    And fermentation for other phyto-toxins.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Westerners eat or drink (as in "soymilk"😉 the
    > soy bean without properly fermenting it to neutralize the phyto-toxins.
    > And in Asian countries much of the soy eaten is properly fermented and
    > used only as a condiment (as in soya sauce, Miso and Natto). They only
    > use soy as a protein replacement irregularly or when there is a
    > shortage of real protein foods.
    >
    > Soy is not real food, especially when it is just ground up and
    > consumed. You must neutralize the phyto-toxins.

    Well, I guess you need to cook some other legumes (red beans for instance)
    as well 🙂

    Could be. I haven't looked into it..... yet.

    So they say...
    http://missvickie.com/howto/beans/beantoxins.htm
    "Red kidney beans: Incidents of food poisoning have been reported
    associated with the consumption of raw or undercooked red kidney beans.
    Symptoms may develop after eating only four raw beans and include nausea,
    vomiting and abdominal pain followed by diarrhrea. For this reason, kidney
    beans must not be sprouted. A naturally occurring hemaglutin is responsible
    for the illness, but can be destroyed by high temperature cooking, making
    the beans completely safe to eat. The beans must boil for 10 minutes to
    destroy the toxin."

    ===

    Anyway, I once ate a full dish of raw red Borlotti beans. Afterwards, I was
    still alive and kicking! Not that I recommend doing that 🙂

    --
    Enrico C

    Well, try eating a full dish every day of your life and see what
    happens. Some people eat tofu every day and they pay for it over time.

    Soy is not real food.

    TC

  9. I'm sorry, no, they don't.

    Fermented soy is primarily used by the Japanese, but they don't
    primarily use fermented soy.

    The Chinese, including the nutritionist I spoke to this afternoon with
    you in mind TC, told me she grew up in Hong Kong and can attest both
    personally, and professionally, that fermented soy is not the bulk of
    soy, and that she grew up eating tofu and drinking soy milk, daily. She
    came to Canada for university, and recently graduated, so this was not
    distant memory.

    No, soy is not used primarily as a condiment in Asian countries. That
    is the Western use.

    I don't disagree with you about soy and phyto-toxins. I don't agree
    either because I don't know.

    Zee

  10. As I mentioned in another thread, TC had better not enjoy any rhubarb
    this summer, or Saskatoon berry pie either. Both these traditional
    prairie treats have dangerous chemicals hiding under the yummy.

    zee

  11. Quoted message said:

    I'm sorry, no, they don't.

    Fermented soy is primarily used by the Japanese, but they don't
    primarily use fermented soy.

    The Chinese, including the nutritionist I spoke to this afternoon with
    you in mind TC, told me she grew up in Hong Kong and can attest both
    personally, and professionally, that fermented soy is not the bulk of
    soy, and that she grew up eating tofu and drinking soy milk, daily. She
    came to Canada for university, and recently graduated, so this was not
    distant memory.

    No, soy is not used primarily as a condiment in Asian countries. That
    is the Western use.

    I don't disagree with you about soy and phyto-toxins. I don't agree
    either because I don't know.

    Zee

    The nutritionist, did she say that eating unfermented tofu and soymilk
    is the traditional way of consuming it? Is that what her parents and
    her grandparents consumed? Is it the exact same product(s) that has
    always been used? I kinda doubt it.

    TC

  12. Enrico C said:

    On 23 Jun 2005 11:07:50 -0700, TC wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on
    sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    [89 quoted lines suppressed]

    In Asian countries they eat only fermented soy.

    Hmm... At a Chinese restaurant I ate soy noodles.
    They also use soy sprouts.

    Do they? I've eaten chow mein in Chinese restaurants but as you know
    Chow Mein is American Chinese food. You won't find it in China. So the
    question is, do the eat soy noodles in China?

    rr

  13. Enrico C said:


    Even so, soy noodles is a 250-year-old food, lots of people have eaten it
    for years, haven't they?

    I dunno. Have they?

    Quoted message said:

    Also, tofu is a traditional Chinese food, and I gather it's made from
    soymilk...

    I think the Japanese eat more soy than the Chinese.

    Quoted message said:


    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1
    "Tofu is the curd formed by adding certain salts to soymilk, and is not
    fermented."

    Well there ya go! However, the soy people (sounds like a grade C
    horror flick) tell us that soy milk is a healthy cow milk alternative.

    Quoted message said:


    Here is what the soy people say...

    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1
    Soyfoods containing isoflavones provide a variety of health benefits.
    Lowered risks of certain cancers, cardiovascular disease, and osteoporosis
    have all been attributed to soyfoods containing isoflavones. Isoflavones
    are described as phytoestrogens (plant estrogens) because their structure
    and metabolism resembles that of human estrogens. These plant estrogens are
    much weaker than naturally circulating human estrogens and they have
    approximately 1/1000th of the biological activity of synthetic estrogens.
    Some groups have raised concerns about fertility of soyfood consumers.
    People consuming diets rich in phytoestrogens from soy have not
    shown signs of infertility (J Nutr, 2002).

    Well if the *soy* people say its good for us then it *must* be good
    for us. :o.

    rr

  14. Quoted message said:


    The Chinese, including the nutritionist I spoke to this afternoon with
    you in mind TC, told me she grew up in Hong Kong and can attest both
    personally, and professionally, that fermented soy is not the bulk of
    soy, and that she grew up eating tofu and drinking soy milk, daily. She
    came to Canada for university, and recently graduated, so this was not
    distant memory.

    She sounds young, this nutritionist. Hong Kong and Shanghai are two of
    the biggest and most westernized cities you could find in that area.
    They are moving away from the traditional diets and are adopting our
    bad habits. Soy milk was not a traditional food. Certainly not for the
    nutritionist's parents or grandparents. I'll grant you tofu, however.
    BTW, did you ask her about amounts typically eaten?

    Quoted message said:

    No, soy is not used primarily as a condiment in Asian countries. That
    is the Western use.

    Really? I thought they use it as a meat replacement and if you can
    believe what we've been told all these years about the Asian diet,
    they *do* use meat as a condiment. They are not heavy meat eaters, I'm
    sure you'll agree. (or not)

    Quoted message said:

    I don't disagree with you about soy and phyto-toxins. I don't agree
    either because I don't know.

    You just love being argumentative. Admit it! ;o)

    Quoted message said:


    Zee

  15. TC said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'm sorry, no, they don't.

    Fermented soy is primarily used by the Japanese, but they don't
    primarily use fermented soy.

    The Chinese, including the nutritionist I spoke to this afternoon with
    you in mind TC, told me she grew up in Hong Kong and can attest both
    personally, and professionally, that fermented soy is not the bulk of
    soy, and that she grew up eating tofu and drinking soy milk, daily. She
    came to Canada for university, and recently graduated, so this was not
    distant memory.

    No, soy is not used primarily as a condiment in Asian countries. That
    is the Western use.

    I don't disagree with you about soy and phyto-toxins. I don't agree
    either because I don't know.

    Zee

    The nutritionist, did she say that eating unfermented tofu and soymilk
    is the traditional way of consuming it? Is that what her parents and
    her grandparents consumed? Is it the exact same product(s) that has
    always been used? I kinda doubt it.

    TC

    I kinda doubt it also. If this girl is young, and it sounds like she
    is, then what is "traditional" in her eyes is probably different from
    what her grandparents were used to eating. Note also that this girl is
    from Hong Kong, a highly industrialized, polluted and westernized
    city. Don't ask me why I added "polluted" in there. I think I did it
    for effect. ;o)

    Anyway, my point is that cities like Hong Kong and Shanghai are not
    the best models to use in determining what their traditional diets are
    like. Try looking at rural Chinese diets.

    rr

  16. On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:27:57 -0400, Roger Rabbit wrote in
    <news:[email hidden]> on sci.med.nutrition :

    Quoted message said:
    Enrico C said:


    Even so, soy noodles is a 250-year-old food, lots of people have eaten it
    for years, haven't they?

    Quoted message said:

    I dunno. Have they?

    One sees soy noodles in menus, so one wonders.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Also, tofu is a traditional Chinese food, and I gather it's made from
    soymilk...

    I think the Japanese eat more soy than the Chinese.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1
    "Tofu is the curd formed by adding certain salts to soymilk, and is not
    fermented."

    Well there ya go! However, the soy people (sounds like a grade C
    horror flick)

    Alien soybean-pods from outer space 😉

    Quoted message said:

    tell us that soy milk is a healthy cow milk alternative.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Here is what the soy people say...

    http://www.silkissoy.com/index.php?id=17&cid=1
    Soyfoods containing isoflavones provide a variety of health benefits.
    Lowered risks of certain cancers, cardiovascular disease, and osteoporosis
    have all been attributed to soyfoods containing isoflavones. Isoflavones
    are described as phytoestrogens (plant estrogens) because their structure
    and metabolism resembles that of human estrogens. These plant estrogens are
    much weaker than naturally circulating human estrogens and they have
    approximately 1/1000th of the biological activity of synthetic estrogens.
    Some groups have raised concerns about fertility of soyfood consumers.
    People consuming diets rich in phytoestrogens from soy have not
    shown signs of infertility (J Nutr, 2002).

    Well if the *soy* people say its good for us then it *must* be good
    for us. :o.

    Of course not. 🙂
    Though, they quote The Journal of Nutrition to support their claims.
    I guess they must refer to this article.

    http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/3/570S?maxtoshow=&HITS=150&hits=150&RESULTFORMAT=&andorexacttitle=and&andorexacttitleabs=and&fulltext=soy+fertility&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1119660675411_6050&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&fdate=1/1/2002&tdate=1/31/2003&journalcode=nutrition
    [...]
    "These recent studies in men consuming soyfoods or supplements containing
    40¡V70 mg/d of soy isoflavones showed few effects on plasma hormones or
    semen quality. These data do not support concerns about effects on
    reproductive hormones and semen quality."

  17. Neither of us used the word traditional. We discussed whether or not
    this was the way she ate soy growing up and if her family ate soy as
    Westerners knew it, or only fermented. She said no, it was really the
    Japanese who eat fermented soy, but I know that's so, since tempeh is a
    Japanese word, but also because among my Japanese aquaintances
    fermented soy *is* eaten but is not the only soy they eat. She said soy
    milk is used and drunk by everyone, but she doesn't think it's
    fortified or with added calcium as it is here, and she thought that was
    probably a cause of the high rates of osteoporosis there.

    She added her parents bought tofu in blocks from street merchants who
    come around selling it, and it was the same style tofu we see here in
    vats in the Chinese grocers. She said some people still make their own
    in Hong Kong, but mostly it's a thing bought from these small business
    vendors and every family buys from a favourite vendor who comes to them
    and a few others.

    Zee

  18. I should also add that I've never had the pleasure of traveling to
    Asia, but I have as a reporter covered the Asian community, taught ESL
    to only Asians, studied Asian culture and mythology, and have taken
    Asian cookery classes from Asians who could not speak English and who
    brought their pre-teen children to translate. I eat and cook Asian
    foods regularly, and not Westernized Asian foods either. I can cook
    Sezchuan, Japanese, Thai, Vietnamese, Korean and a couple East Indian
    culture foods. The latter two do not use tofu.

    zee

  19. Quoted message said:

    Neither of us used the word traditional. We discussed whether or not
    this was the way she ate soy growing up and if her family ate soy as
    Westerners knew it, or only fermented. She said no, it was really the
    Japanese who eat fermented soy, but I know that's so, since tempeh is a
    Japanese word, but also because among my Japanese aquaintances
    fermented soy *is* eaten but is not the only soy they eat. She said soy
    milk is used and drunk by everyone, but she doesn't think it's
    fortified or with added calcium as it is here, and she thought that was
    probably a cause of the high rates of osteoporosis there.

    She added her parents bought tofu in blocks from street merchants who
    come around selling it, and it was the same style tofu we see here in
    vats in the Chinese grocers. She said some people still make their own
    in Hong Kong, but mostly it's a thing bought from these small business
    vendors and every family buys from a favourite vendor who comes to them
    and a few others.

    Meant to say tempeh is not a Chinese word.

    Zee

    Quoted message said:

    Zee

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