Working Out "off the bike" ...

...Understanding that weight training does nothing for cycling True

For example, core strength comes to mind; will it benefit a cyclist to engage in an ab program? No
a lower back program? No

Another question comes to mind is rehabilitating the muscles with heat/hot tub or sauna? See Ice
ice? If you injure or sprain something alternating between hot and cold works better than just using one or the other.
stretching or flexibility exercises? Won't improve athletic performance
massage? Won't improve athletic performance

In other words, should it only come down to rest, ride and diet? Mostly

or are there other things that should be utilized to fully charge the endurance engine? Mental stress and lifestyle should also be taken into consideration.

Morb: Probably the only partial surprise in the answers is massage. I expected that there would be little or no positive results from the others. I've been using heat/hot bath a little on the legs and, although I feel better from it, I think it actually might hurt cycling performance.

Curiously though, I find heat/hot tub does help for non-endurance training.

At least intuitively, massage might assist in blood flow and circulation to the lower leg. I'm not sure why it wouldn't help a cyclist- the only thing I can think of is that massage is a temporary benefit and irrelevant during actual process of endurance work.

Beer Guzzling....very important part of "off the bike training". Is mostly mental.

This is really depressing if true. I would of thought at least an AB program might improve breathing technique and take a little of the fat off..........

Doctor Morbius said:

...Understanding that weight training does nothing for cycling True

For example, core strength comes to mind; will it benefit a cyclist to engage in an ab program? No
a lower back program? No

Another question comes to mind is rehabilitating the muscles with heat/hot tub or sauna? See Ice
ice? If you injure or sprain something alternating between hot and cold works better than just using one or the other.
stretching or flexibility exercises? Won't improve athletic performance
massage? Won't improve athletic performance

In other words, should it only come down to rest, ride and diet? Mostly

or are there other things that should be utilized to fully charge the endurance engine? Mental stress and lifestyle should also be taken into consideration.

Doing proper core stability exercises will help you if you have lower back problems and is generally good for preventing injury, same for flexibility. They won't give you any direct improvement in power output but are worth doing and won't decrease your performance either if you do them properly and at the right time. Massage I believe helps recovery.

-I agree and understand this, but what about the relationship between an AB program and more efficient/improved breathing.
-It just doesnt seem possible that nothing besides an indoor trainer will help improve endurance cycling during the off season.....excluding beer drinking

Eldrack said:

Doing proper core stability exercises will help you if you have lower back problems and is generally good for preventing injury, same for flexibility. They won't give you any direct improvement in power output but are worth doing and won't decrease your performance either if you do them properly and at the right time. Massage I believe helps recovery.

My experience has been that core strength and flexibility training is worthwhile. It may not translate directly into stronger riding, but it's helped me to ride farther and faster without suffering lower back pain.

Believe indoor trainer workouts are best for maintaining cycling endurance over the winter when outdoor riding isn't possible. Running may maintain overall cardio fitness, but it does little or nothing for the cycling-specific muscles.

dhk said:

My experience has been that core strength and flexibility training is worthwhile. It may not translate directly into stronger riding, but it's helped me to ride farther and faster without suffering lower back pain.

Believe indoor trainer workouts are best for maintaining cycling endurance over the winter when outdoor riding isn't possible. Running may maintain overall cardio fitness, but it does little or nothing for the cycling-specific muscles.

Exactly. DO NOT IGNORE CORE STRENGTH! You MUST have good core strength to be a good cyclist. If you think that you don't work your upper body in mountain biking, tag along with some elites through winding, bumpy-ass trail rides. Core strength helps to improve your efficiency by keeping you in a proper, more efficient riding position. You need lower back strength, and some ab strength. That's my two cents..

About Leg Stength, how can it not add any aid to cycling power? Why would Joe Friel say to keep leg strength up in the gym 3 times per week if it is totally ineffective? Joe Friel is highly regarded, is he not? Strength training isn't even good for an ectomorph? I just don't see how it can be useless but recommended by a top coach.

Doctor Morbius said:

...Understanding that weight training does nothing for cycling True

For example, core strength comes to mind; will it benefit a cyclist to engage in an ab program? No
a lower back program? No

Another question comes to mind is rehabilitating the muscles with heat/hot tub or sauna? See Ice
ice? If you injure or sprain something alternating between hot and cold works better than just using one or the other.
stretching or flexibility exercises? Won't improve athletic performance
massage? Won't improve athletic performance

In other words, should it only come down to rest, ride and diet? Mostly

or are there other things that should be utilized to fully charge the endurance engine? Mental stress and lifestyle should also be taken into consideration.

Never ignore stretches, unless you like to use your ice a lot. STRETCHES ARE IMPORTANT... I don't see how you can deny any benefit of stretching. "Cyclists are notorius for tight hamstrings" as quoted from Bicycling magazine... I can tell you on days that I have intense rides on hot days, stretching is very important. I'm telling Ric Stern on you. lol.
You need to stretch to loosen up the muscles. Muscles get tight after being used, and very tight after improper warmups and cool downs, expecially when the intensity is high.

K50 said:

Never ignore stretches, unless you like to use your ice a lot. STRETCHES ARE IMPORTANT... I don't see how you can deny any benefit of stretching. "Cyclists are notorius for tight hamstrings" as quoted from Bicycling magazine... I can tell you on days that I have intense rides on hot days, stretching is very important. I'm telling Ric Stern on you. lol.
You need to stretch to loosen up the muscles. Muscles get tight after being used, and very tight after improper warmups and cool downs, expecially when the intensity is high.

You go right ahead and tell Ric Stern on me. He will tell you himself that he hasn't done any stretching since 1985. Think I'm making this up? PM him if you don't. PM Biker_linz too. He'll give you the scoop.

K50 said:

Exactly. DO NOT IGNORE CORE STRENGTH! You MUST have good core strength to be a good cyclist.

I already know what Ric would say about this too.

NO SOUP FOR YOU!! 😉
(Soup Nazi)

K50 said:

Never ignore stretches, unless you like to use your ice a lot. STRETCHES ARE IMPORTANT... I don't see how you can deny any benefit of stretching. "Cyclists are notorius for tight hamstrings" as quoted from Bicycling magazine... I can tell you on days that I have intense rides on hot days, stretching is very important. I'm telling Ric Stern on you. lol.
You need to stretch to loosen up the muscles. Muscles get tight after being used, and very tight after improper warmups and cool downs, expecially when the intensity is high.

as the good doctor states above, i've not done any structured stretching since 85. sometimes, when i'm sat at the office in my chair, i stretch out my back, and lift my arms up. usually after i've yawned.

there are perhaps, some conditions when stretching maybe useful, but this would perhaps be advised by a physio or osteopath, rather than a coach/sports scientist.

you can go straight into supramaximal intensity workouts without warming up. for e.g., back in the day when i was at uni, we did a study looking at O2 kinetics for a modified Wingate (90-secs, all-out, unpaced) with no prior warm up allowed. all we were allowed to do is sit on the bike and pedal backwards for a few revs to make sure the seat height was correct. for the test to be accepted we had to either hit our known peak(sprint) power or be very close to it.

no (muscular) harm came to anyone who did the test. mentally, we were all scarred for life after such a brutal all-out long test. and a few people needed longer than the "2 hrs prior no food", as witnessed by the hurling at the end of the test. Ahhh happy days!

ric

K50 said:

Exactly. DO NOT IGNORE CORE STRENGTH! You MUST have good core strength to be a good cyclist. If you think that you don't work your upper body in mountain biking, tag along with some elites through winding, bumpy-ass trail rides. Core strength helps to improve your efficiency by keeping you in a proper, more efficient riding position. You need lower back strength, and some ab strength. That's my two cents..

About Leg Stength, how can it not add any aid to cycling power? Why would Joe Friel say to keep leg strength up in the gym 3 times per week if it is totally ineffective? Joe Friel is highly regarded, is he not? Strength training isn't even good for an ectomorph? I just don't see how it can be useless but recommended by a top coach.

increasing leg strength will likely help you increase the maximal force you can generate at the pedals, *providing* there has been an increase in muscle cross sectional area (hypertrophy). This is extremely important for e.g., 200-m track sprinters, 500-m and 1-km track TT, etc.

However, this increase in muscle X sectional area will result in a relative decrease in muscle mitochondrion and capillary density. This will lead to a decrease in the unloading of O2 in the muscles, which will slow you down. additionally, you would have a greater mass, and therefore more to drag when going uphill (i.e., slower). your power would only be increased in sprints.

there's the gymming for power thread, which goes into this in more detail and also my article at cyclingnews, see http://www.cyclingforums.com/t126133-gyming-to-improve-power.html, and http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=strengthstern. there are actually many threads on this forum about the benefits or not of strength/resistance training, and many about stretching (linds is your man for stretching). finally, andy coggan has a great article too about strength training, but i can't recall the url for it. paging andy...

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

increasing leg strength will likely help you increase the maximal force you can generate at the pedals, *providing* there has been an increase in muscle cross sectional area (hypertrophy). This is extremely important for e.g., 200-m track sprinters, 500-m and 1-km track TT, etc.

However, this increase in muscle X sectional area will result in a relative decrease in muscle mitochondrion and capillary density. This will lead to a decrease in the unloading of O2 in the muscles, which will slow you down. additionally, you would have a greater mass, and therefore more to drag when going uphill (i.e., slower). your power would only be increased in sprints.

there's the gymming for power thread, which goes into this in more detail and also my article at cyclingnews, see cyclingforums.comt126133 gyming to improve power.htmlOpen ↗, and cyclingnews.comfitnessOpen ↗. there are actually many threads on this forum about the benefits or not of strength/resistance training, and many about stretching (linds is your man for stretching). finally, andy coggan has a great article too about strength training, but i can't recall the url for it. paging andy...

ric

Ric:

Just give me a comment or two on massage and ice/heat. Morb is a quality source for advice and I trust his input; I'm also I'm inclined to agree with him. But I was wondering about your comments as well ... if you've done research or read relevant journals ...

(Again, I play a variety of sports and cycling is only a fraction of my athletic endeavors. In my case, massage seems to help performance while heat seems to hurt it a bit, although it aids in alleviating pain. In any case, I'm interested to hear your comments as they relate to cycling only.)

K50- definitely check out the thread "gyming to improve power" - I'm a gym rat and I build muscle quickly with weights. This summer, I put in a solid effort to follow Ric's and Andy Coggan's guidelines regarding training. My experience: both these guys are "dead on" with their analysis. I've never been faster on a bike and my results were amazing.

blkhotrod- explain what you mean about correlating ab/core strength to breathing please. Do you mean specific exercises to target the diaphragm? Or a general ab/lower back workout to strengthen your torso? I've read about breathing exercising in tennis and martial arts; as I recall, notable success has been garnered through the experimentation (e.g. exhale through contact, breathe "in" through the nose, etc.). I'm not sure how it might work with endurance training though, where you're talking about LIMITED resistance over a longer duration.

comments?

ric_stern/RST said:

as the good doctor states above, i've not done any structured stretching since 85. sometimes, when i'm sat at the office in my chair, i stretch out my back, and lift my arms up. usually after i've yawned.

there are perhaps, some conditions when stretching maybe useful, but this would perhaps be advised by a physio or osteopath, rather than a coach/sports scientist.

you can go straight into supramaximal intensity workouts without warming up. for e.g., back in the day when i was at uni, we did a study looking at O2 kinetics for a modified Wingate (90-secs, all-out, unpaced) with no prior warm up allowed. all we were allowed to do is sit on the bike and pedal backwards for a few revs to make sure the seat height was correct. for the test to be accepted we had to either hit our known peak(sprint) power or be very close to it.

no (muscular) harm came to anyone who did the test. mentally, we were all scarred for life after such a brutal all-out long test. and a few people needed longer than the "2 hrs prior no food", as witnessed by the hurling at the end of the test. Ahhh happy days!

ric

Wow, I have to say I'm shocked... Well, now I know for next time. Personally, once I got to a good fitness level a year or two ago, stretching never helped me anymore in general. But on hot days I had a tendancy to cramp up in my hamstrings for some reason. I still Can't figure out why though. I had 2 bananas a day (potassium), enough sodium from energy drinks and other stuff, and drank lot's of water. But something was still missing causing me to cramp up. Stretching helped a bit but I'm sure there's a deeper underlying problem. I must be missing some other electrolyte or ions that needed to be replenished.

How can you go into a max workout without warmup? That shocks me the most. I was always told that can cause bad injuries and muscle damage.

Doctor Morbius said:

I already know what Ric would say about this too.

NO SOUP FOR YOU!! 😉
(Soup Nazi)

lol..yeah, I've been denied.

Just playing devils advocate here:

I find it hard to believe that if you took a week bodied individual (core strength), and put them on a bike and compaired it to a individual who has been lightly training at the gym (better core strength), that the week bodied person would be a better cyclist.

With that being said could someone please give me a link or a document that provides documented proof that core strength doesn't help a cyclist, compiled by a someone qualified.

Thanks,

Cam

P.S. obviously i am nobody to doubt anyone on these forums, and im not, i just want to see the proof baby!

K50 said:

lol..yeah, I've been denied.

foild1 said:

Just playing devils advocate here:

I find it hard to believe that if you took a week bodied individual (core strength), and put them on a bike and compaired it to a individual who has been lightly training at the gym (better core strength), that the week bodied person would be a better cyclist.

With that being said could someone please give me a link or a document that provides documented proof that core strength doesn't help a cyclist, compiled by a someone qualified.

Thanks,

Cam

P.S. obviously i am nobody to doubt anyone on these forums, and im not, i just want to see the proof baby!

I don't have any documents that suit your criteria. But I'm curious, why do you think core strength has anything to do with being a (road) cyclist?

I believe Ric's position on core strength for cyclists has been that the forces in cycling are very low for the legs, and therefore even less in the "core" area. (Sorry if I misquoted you Ric)