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Words failed me (Warning - contains the H word)

Started by Richard Bates · · Last activity · 30 posts · 1,139 views

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UK and Europe
Published
1 December 2004
Last activity
6 December 2004
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Richard Bates
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30
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  1. Taking my rightful place in a mandatory bus/bike/taxi lane today, I
    heard the BEEEEEP of a motor vehicle.

    It couldn't get past me, you see, as the traffic in the lane to my
    right was in a long queue to enter a roundabout.

    At the subsequent set of traffic lights I was told that I should have
    been wearing a helmet, because then she could have squeezed past me
    safely.

    No matter how many stock phrases you have in your repertoire, there
    will always be a situation that leaves you totally gobsmacked, and
    unfortunately, I didn't have the ability to tell her what a stupid
    twunt s/he [1] was.

    Love and amazement from Rich x

    [1] I'll let you guess

  2. On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:57:43 +0000, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Richard Bates said:


    At the subsequent set of traffic lights I was told that I should have
    been wearing a helmet, because then she could have squeezed past me
    safely.

    It goes toward the view I am forming that motorists unconciously take
    more care around an unhelmeted cyclist because they see them as more
    vulnerable. Its certainly been my experience since I stopped wearing
    one and maybe it helps explain the counter-intuitive situation that
    wearing a helmet increases the risk.

    Risk compensation by proxy, if such a term exists...?

    I really *must* get the John Adams book!

  3. Richard Bates said:

    On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:57:43 +0000, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Richard Bates said:


    At the subsequent set of traffic lights I was told that I should have
    been wearing a helmet, because then she could have squeezed past me
    safely.

    It goes toward the view I am forming that motorists unconciously take
    more care around an unhelmeted cyclist because they see them as more
    vulnerable. Its certainly been my experience since I stopped wearing
    one and maybe it helps explain the counter-intuitive situation that
    wearing a helmet increases the risk.

    Risk compensation by proxy, if such a term exists...?

    I really *must* get the John Adams book!

    Ouch £23.50 paperback from Amazon.

    Perhaps I *don't* need it after all

  4. Richard Bates said:


    At the subsequent set of traffic lights I was told that I should have
    been wearing a helmet, because then she could have squeezed past me
    safely.

    It goes toward the view I am forming that motorists unconciously take
    more care around an unhelmeted cyclist because they see them as more
    vulnerable. Its certainly been my experience since I stopped wearing
    one and maybe it helps explain the counter-intuitive situation that
    wearing a helmet increases the risk.

    Tony

  5. Tony Raven said:


    Richard Bates said:


    At the subsequent set of traffic lights I was told that I should have
    been wearing a helmet, because then she could have squeezed past me
    safely.

    It goes toward the view I am forming that motorists unconciously take
    more care around an unhelmeted cyclist because they see them as more
    vulnerable. Its certainly been my experience since I stopped wearing
    one and maybe it helps explain the counter-intuitive situation that
    wearing a helmet increases the risk.

    I've had at least two instances where having nearly been taken out by a
    motorist I've had the retort that I should have been wearing a helmet.
    IMO it seems that motorists are seeing cyclists as fair game if they
    are helmetless and that by not wearing one it gives them immunity from
    any responsibility.
    If you don't wear a helmet *you* are to blame for the motorists'
    dangerous driving.

    John B

  6. JohnB said:

    If you don't wear a helmet *you* are to blame for the motorists'
    dangerous driving.

    That is as ridiculous as the attitude that women are responsible in the
    way they dress for rape.

    Nothing makes me responsible for their dangerous driving.

    Tony

  7. Richard Bates said:

    Taking my rightful place in a mandatory bus/bike/taxi lane today, I
    heard the BEEEEEP of a motor vehicle.

    It couldn't get past me, you see, as the traffic in the lane to my
    right was in a long queue to enter a roundabout.

    At the subsequent set of traffic lights I was told that I should have
    been wearing a helmet, because then she could have squeezed past me
    safely.

    No matter how many stock phrases you have in your repertoire, there
    will always be a situation that leaves you totally gobsmacked, and
    unfortunately, I didn't have the ability to tell her what a stupid
    twunt s/he [1] was.

    Love and amazement from Rich x

    [1] I'll let you guess

    Stupid [censored].

  8. Tony Raven said:


    JohnB said:

    If you don't wear a helmet *you* are to blame for the motorists'
    dangerous driving.

    That is as ridiculous as the attitude that women are responsible in the
    way they dress for rape.

    Nothing makes me responsible for their dangerous driving.

    Quite, but try telling that to the motorist who can do no wrong.
    I fear its the way things are going.
    Someone else is *always* to blame :-((

    John B

  9. Richard Bates said:
    Quoted message said:

    I really *must* get the John Adams book!

    Ouch £23.50 paperback from Amazon.

    Perhaps I *don't* need it after all

    Well, if you strapped it to your head, it could Save Your Life. Then it
    would be money well spent.

    --
    Rob

    Please keep conversations in the newsgroup so that all may contribute
    and benefit.

  10. Tony Raven <[email hidden]> wrote:

    | Richard Bates wrote:
    | >
    | > At the subsequent set of traffic lights I was told that I should have
    | > been wearing a helmet, because then she could have squeezed past me
    | > safely.
    | >
    |
    | It goes toward the view I am forming that motorists unconciously take
    | more care around an unhelmeted cyclist because they see them as more
    | vulnerable. Its certainly been my experience since I stopped wearing
    | one and maybe it helps explain the counter-intuitive situation that
    | wearing a helmet increases the risk.

    I'm impressed (with myself <g>😉. I was saying this in August 1996
    (yep, eight years and nothing's changed):

    | From: [email hidden] (Patrick Herring)
    | Subject: Re: Helmets
    | Date: 1996/08/03
    | Message-ID: <[email hidden]>#1/1
    | distribution: world
    | references: <[email hidden]>
    | organization: Anweald Systems
    | newsgroups: uk.rec.cycling
    |
    | Joe writes in article <[email hidden]>:
    | >
    | > In article <[email hidden]>, James Murray <james.murr
    | > [email hidden]> writes
    | > >There are 2 issues in the helmet debate:
    | > >
    | > >1. should governments force or encourage people to wear helmets?
    | > >
    | > >2. should you as an individual wear a helmet?
    | ...
    | > >for 2., ask yourself two questions. First, will you ride more
    | > >dangerously when wearing a helmet (risk compensation)? Second, in a
    | > >given accident, will the helmet save your life, reduce injuries, prevent
    | > >cosmetic damage etc. ?
    |
    | & thirdly, will drivers, at speeds over 15mph, know & understand that your
    | helmet is irrelevant & that you haven't 'got the main thing covered'? That's
    | the biggest element of risk compensation here.
    |
    | Yours, Patrick
    | _____________________________________________________________________________
    |
    | Patrick Herring, Primrose Hill, London, UK
    | I tend to eat my UUCP feed once a day, so replies can take two days

    --
    Patrick Herring, http://www.anweald.co.uk

  11. JohnB <[email hidden]> wrote:
    ....
    | If you don't wear a helmet *you* are to blame for the motorists'
    | dangerous driving.

    This raises a good one-liner response to the BeHittists: "I'll wear a
    helmet if you find me one intended for use against bad driving".

    --
    Patrick Herring, http://www.anweald.co.uk

  12. "JohnB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Tony Raven said:


    JohnB said:

    If you don't wear a helmet *you* are to blame for the motorists'
    dangerous driving.

    That is as ridiculous as the attitude that women are responsible in the
    way they dress for rape.

    Nothing makes me responsible for their dangerous driving.

    Quite, but try telling that to the motorist who can do no wrong.
    I fear its the way things are going.
    Someone else is *always* to blame :-((

    I well remember being overtaken dangerously closely by a vehicle which
    pulled in as it passed me. The driver's excuse "you accelerated away from
    the lights too quickly" These people have passed a test? and have a
    licence?!

    Quoted message said:


    John B

  13. Richard Bates said:
    Richard Bates said:

    On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 17:57:43 +0000, Tony Raven


    <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Richard Bates wrote:
    >
    > At the subsequent set of traffic lights I was told that I should


    have

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > been wearing a helmet, because then she could have squeezed past


    me

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > safely.
    >

    It goes toward the view I am forming that motorists unconciously


    take

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    more care around an unhelmeted cyclist because they see them as


    more

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    vulnerable. Its certainly been my experience since I stopped


    wearing

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    one and maybe it helps explain the counter-intuitive situation that

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    wearing a helmet increases the risk.

    Risk compensation by proxy, if such a term exists...?

    I really *must* get the John Adams book!

    Ouch £23.50 paperback from Amazon.

    Perhaps I *don't* need it after all

    Try "Target Risk" by G. Wilde. It's on-line at
    http://pavlov.psyc.queensu.ca/target/index.html

  14. JohnB said:

    I've had at least two instances where having nearly been taken out by a motorist I've had the retort that I should have been wearing a helmet.
    IMO it seems that motorists are seeing cyclists as fair game if they
    are helmetless and that by not wearing one it gives them immunity from
    any responsibility.
    If you don't wear a helmet *you* are to blame for the motorists'
    dangerous driving.

    John B

    Similarly I had a driver cut across my path such that I had to brake to avoid being side-swiped into the culvert. I chased after the driver and caught up with him when he stopped at a house nearby. I was angry and went on the verbal offensive telling him that he had almost taken me out by cutting in front of me. His response - (at this point my eyes roll skyward) "well you should have been wearing a helmet." What's that supposed to mean? Surely he wasn't suggesting that he wouldn't have cut in front of me if I was wearing one? Was he implying that it's OK for him to endanger me by cutting in front and I have to accept that and armour up?

    That sort of response is infuriating but it's difficult to put into words or try to argue against - how on earth can you reason with unreason?
    Firstly the retort from the driver shows that he's engaging in the sort of reasoning that one might expect from a child or a imbecile. I'm confronting this person who has shown a complete disregard for my safety - he was using his vehicle in such a way (cutting in front of me) that it amounted to using his vehicle in a dangerous manner. His act of reckless disregard was the transgression that I was confronting him about - and what is his reasoning - that somehow his behaviour is excusable because I wasn't wearing a helmet?

    This is the aspect of this hullabaloo about helmets that makes me sick. Even before cycling helmets became compulsory in NZ I had experienced more than a few instances of motorist's complete disregard for my safety (as a cyclist).
    My experiences of motorists acting in a manner of callous indifference to my safety wasn't unique to me. It seems to be every cyclist's lot. The biggest threat to my safety on the road seemed to me to come from motorists who either seemed oblivious to the presence of cyclists, or seemed to get some satisfaction from intimidating cyclists by cutting in too close or other similar actions. But what happens? Rather than initiatives being taken to change motorists attitudes and behaviour with respect to cyclist safety (no, that would be too difficult) we the cyclists are being charged with responsibility for the results of motorists contempt for us on the road.

    This is the detrimental downside of this helmet business - what we cyclists need most from motorists is for them to afford us due care and consideration for our safety. The emphasis and attention given to helmets puts the onus onto cyclists to protect ourselves (and of course helmets offer s.f.a. protection) and convenniently takes the focus away from what would really give us the best improvement in terms of safety - motorists treating us with due care and consideration.

    That's what sucks about this - the greatest threat to our safety is motorists continued callous disregard for us - and what does this helmet hoopla do? It transfers responsibility away from them and puts it onto us to don a poly-bonnet, which does squat to address and reduce the greatest threat to our safety.

    That brings us to the truly sad part of this charade - that many cyclists amongst us not only accept this state of affairs but are strong voices in support of a measure that is effectively deleterious to our safety on the road.
    Unfortunately these cyclists are allowing themselves to be duped by accepting the exaggerated claims of helmet protection.

    If we are asked what measure could be taken to improve our safety on the road wouldn't having motorists being held more to account for their carnage on us - wouldn't that be more likely to give us the sort of safety that cyclists in various countries on the continent enjoy?

    Roger

  15. RogerDodger <[email hidden]>typed

    <other excellent stuff snipped>

    Quoted message said:

    This is the aspect of this hullabaloo about helmets that makes me sick.
    Even before cycling helmets became compulsory in NZ I had experienced
    more than a few instances of motorist's complete disregard for my
    safety (as a cyclist).

    Quoted message said:

    My experiences of motorists acting in a manner of callous indifference
    to my safety wasn't unique to me.

    Quoted message said:

    That's what sucks about this - the greatest threat to our safety is
    motorists continued callous disregard for us - and what does this
    helmet hoopla do? It transfers responsibility away from them and puts
    it onto us to don a poly-bonnet, which does squat to address and reduce
    the greatest threat to our safety.

    Excellent post Roger. Shame the Liddites won't buy it.

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

  16. Richard Bates said:


    Risk compensation by proxy, if such a term exists...?

    I was going to post something like that!

    A whole new(?) concept.

    BugBear

  17. Helen Deborah Vecht said:

    RogerDodger <[email hidden]>typed

    <other excellent stuff snipped>

    Quoted message said:

    This is the aspect of this hullabaloo about helmets that makes me sick.
    Even before cycling helmets became compulsory in NZ I had experienced
    more than a few instances of motorist's complete disregard for my
    safety (as a cyclist).

    Quoted message said:

    My experiences of motorists acting in a manner of callous indifference
    to my safety wasn't unique to me.

    Quoted message said:

    That's what sucks about this - the greatest threat to our safety is
    motorists continued callous disregard for us - and what does this
    helmet hoopla do? It transfers responsibility away from them and puts
    it onto us to don a poly-bonnet, which does squat to address and reduce
    the greatest threat to our safety.

    Excellent post Roger. Shame the Liddites won't buy it.


    Excellent indeed. Also, sadly reminiscent of an equally well-argued
    piece written decades ago and reprinted in the CTC magazine a few years
    back. It pointed out the injustice and stupidity of insisting that
    cyclists have lights on their bikes at night to warn cars of their
    presence. It argued it is a fundamental principle that it is for the
    drivers of other vehicles to drive in a way that they can see what is
    ahead and avoid running into it. The effect of this law requiring lights
    on the bicycle, said the author, would be that drivers would now use
    less care and would blame the cyclist for any collision; even if the
    cyclist had lights, how could it be proved afterwards they were working?
    This law was not, he said, to protect cyclists at all; it was to speed
    up cars, to the detriment of cyclists.

    --
    Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

  18. Quoted message said:

    This law was not, he said, to protect cyclists at all; it was to speed
    up cars, to the detriment of cyclists.

    Load of bollox that was. I take it he'd never had a car pull out of a side
    road in front of him?

  19. Mark Thompson <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    This law was not, he said, to protect cyclists at all; it was to speed
    up cars, to the detriment of cyclists.

    Quoted message said:

    Load of bollox that was. I take it he'd never had a car pull out of a side
    road in front of him?

    Well I did when I was *very* well illuminated so the lights didn't may
    the driver *look* did they???

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
    Edgware.

  20. Mark Thompson said:
    Quoted message said:

    This law was not, he said, to protect cyclists at all; it was to speed
    up cars, to the detriment of cyclists.

    Load of bollox that was. I take it he'd never had a car pull out of a side
    road in front of him?

    If I recall correctly he wrote it around 1920-ish, when lights for bikes
    was a new law, and I have no idea how often he dealt with cars at side
    roads. I could guess that on the occasions he heard a car approaching a
    side road ahead at night he would have been well aware of what reaction
    was appropriate on his part.

    Getting back to the point, his prediction of the consequences of the law
    are demonstrably accurate.

    Since then we have other demonstrations of the same principle, such as
    these helpful cycle lanes that do so much for cyclists.

    --
    Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

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