Woohoo!

Mark Leuck said:

Well yea they are European after all

I must say -- I think we need more of the modern European ethos in our
society.

Legalize prostitution!

Six weeks of paid vacation -- on top of paid sick days!!

And no darned helmet laws!

NYC XYZ said:

Mark Leuck said:

Well yea they are European after all

Meaning that we use pragmatism and personal responsibility instead of
sueing or laws to protect us from ourselves when we do something stupid
that we and we alone are responsible for, right? :-)

Ever wonder why so many (also U.S.) tourists come to Amsterdam? They
want to try legal marihuana, legal prostitution and a society that
thinks more pragmatically than paternalistically. Personally, I couldn't
care less if prostitution or soft drugs are legal. I don't have a need
for either, but it sure helps to decriminalize the people involved. They
pay taxes and get healthcare benefits like everyone else, and don't need
to do their business in shady corners.

Quoted message said:

I must say -- I think we need more of the modern European ethos in our
society.

Legalize prostitution!

Six weeks of paid vacation -- on top of paid sick days!!

And no darned helmet laws!

Ehm, make that five weeks of paid vacation in my country, unless you
work for a company that allows you to buy more (I got ten weeks the last
couple of years), but that's on top of paid sick leave, of course.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko<a t)dse(d o t>nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

"Wilko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

NYC XYZ said:

Mark Leuck said:

Well yea they are European after all

Meaning that we use pragmatism and personal responsibility instead of
sueing or laws to protect us from ourselves when we do something stupid
that we and we alone are responsible for, right? :-)

Ever wonder why so many (also U.S.) tourists come to Amsterdam? They
want to try legal marihuana, legal prostitution and a society that
thinks more pragmatically than paternalistically. Personally, I couldn't
care less if prostitution or soft drugs are legal. I don't have a need
for either, but it sure helps to decriminalize the people involved. They
pay taxes and get healthcare benefits like everyone else, and don't need
to do their business in shady corners.

I don't recall ever mentioning marijuana or prostitution or legalizing
helmets, you've got some serious pent up anger going there

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Leuck said:

Well yea they are European after all

I must say -- I think we need more of the modern European ethos in our
society.

Legalize prostitution!

It is in parts of Nevada

Quoted message said:

Six weeks of paid vacation -- on top of paid sick days!!

And you get France and Germany's 10% unemployment rate to go with it

Quoted message said:

And no darned helmet laws!

Most states do not have any

Mark Leuck said:

Only a fool would ride without a mirror, please get one

I had a friend who assumed the same thing. Though she had ridden
many, many fewer miles than I have, she told me of the several times
the mirror saved her life by allowing her to dive into the ditch to
avoid the car that was about to run her down.

Now I can't say for sure that she wouldn't have been run down several
times had she not chosen to crash, but let's just say that
statistically it would be very, very unlikely. In the end all I know
for sure is that she crashed several times because of the mirror.

Not that there's anything "wrong" with a mirror, but to assume you're
being suicidal by NOT wearing one is to ignore an astonishing amount
of data.

YMMV.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Wilko said:

NYC XYZ said:

Mark Leuck said:

Well yea they are European after all

Meaning that we use pragmatism and personal responsibility instead of
sueing or laws to protect us from ourselves when we do something stupid
that we and we alone are responsible for, right? :-)

Ever wonder why so many (also U.S.) tourists come to Amsterdam? They
want to try legal marihuana, legal prostitution and a society that
thinks more pragmatically than paternalistically. Personally, I couldn't
care less if prostitution or soft drugs are legal. I don't have a need
for either, but it sure helps to decriminalize the people involved. They
pay taxes and get healthcare benefits like everyone else, and don't need
to do their business in shady corners.

Quoted message said:

I must say -- I think we need more of the modern European ethos in our
society.

Legalize prostitution!

Six weeks of paid vacation -- on top of paid sick days!!

And no darned helmet laws!

Ehm, make that five weeks of paid vacation in my country, unless you
work for a company that allows you to buy more (I got ten weeks the last
couple of years), but that's on top of paid sick leave, of course.

Oh no! Not another thread deteriorating into Europe vs USA!

They are apples and oranges. You cannot compare them directly.

The only thing one can say with certainty is that some people like
apples, some like oranges.

Joseph

quote='Mark Hickey''Mark Leuck said:

Only a fool would ride without a mirror, please get one

I had a friend who assumed the same thing. Though she had ridden
many, many fewer miles than I have, she told me of the several times
the mirror saved her life by allowing her to dive into the ditch to
avoid the car that was about to run her down.

Now I can't say for sure that she wouldn't have been run down several
times had she not chosen to crash, but let's just say that
statistically it would be very, very unlikely. In the end all I know
for sure is that she crashed several times because of the mirror.
[/QUOTE]Since you have no statistics you can really rely on, you do not "know" anything for sure. Deaths and injuries are statistics, close calls rarely make the numbers game. What I know, equally certainly, is that she feels safer with the mirror. If that gets her riding more and enjoying it that's great.

I'd say one is domed riding without a helmet. For you furriners, that's a really lousy pun.

Very dangerous to get into statistics. Holland for instance, or most of Europe in general, drivers there are much better than here, GENERALLY, France and Italy being two notable exceptions where I have experience too. With better drivers cyclists should not need mirrors as much. That's probability, not statistics. Without access to all the data, well, speaking as a long (30+ years) term student of Stats, there are Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.

For me and mine, mirror (left side) is mandated. Not so much for the immediate surroundings, but for long distance detection of autos and lurking DF riders.

Autos/Trucks(Lorries, Pete) because I was forced off the road last week by some silly [censored] doing her eyelashes while operating a 3,000 lb Death Machine. With the mirror I saw her coming, swerve into the shoulder once, and start drifting to the right (and me!) again. Statistically, should I have stayed where I had the legal right do be? Only if I wanted to be a statistic.

Lurking DF riders so I can craftily increase spin waiting for them to get close, then innocently not let them quite catch me. Well, until the damn 25 year old with legs of steel gets [censored] and blows by me. At least I make them work for it, without really seeming to. 😎

So back on thread, NY, glad you are happy with your 'bent. I can see where you relate it to kayaking in a general sense, however, I relate it more to downhill skiing, where the legs do the work while the upper body is there for balance and timing.

5 mph slower?!? Are you using the same speedo? Did you measure the wheel circumference correctly? Do you accidently have the one on your roadie set to kph? Have you checked your brakes, maybe you are dragging one or two pads? Even with all the shocks and things, and the street machines' rep for being slower, that is relative to other bents, surely? Tell me it ain't THAT slow!

Charlie Dwyer

Mark Leuck said:

On a normal bike I can see your point however on a recumbent it's a
different matter

"a recumbent" covers a /huge/ range of designs, some of which make it
practically impossible to look behind easily (extreme lowracers), and
some where it's a complete non-issue. So sweeping everything into one
pot just doesn't make sense.

I have a mirror on my Streetmachine, but I don't need it. OP has a
Streetmachine, and finds he can look around, so what's the problem?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Mark Leuck said:

"Wilko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

NYC XYZ said:

Mark Leuck wrote:
> Well yea they are European after all

Quoted message said:

Meaning that we use pragmatism and personal responsibility instead of
sueing or laws to protect us from ourselves when we do something stupid
that we and we alone are responsible for, right? :-)

Ever wonder why so many (also U.S.) tourists come to Amsterdam? They
want to try legal marihuana, legal prostitution and a society that
thinks more pragmatically than paternalistically. Personally, I couldn't
care less if prostitution or soft drugs are legal. I don't have a need
for either, but it sure helps to decriminalize the people involved. They
pay taxes and get healthcare benefits like everyone else, and don't need
to do their business in shady corners.

I don't recall ever mentioning marijuana or prostitution or legalizing
helmets, you've got some serious pent up anger going there

I wasn't angry, but then again I didn't call anyone fools either.

As for picking what you feel like responding to with empty one liners,
instead of going into a discussion about the argumentation behind those
one liners, be my guest. It sure says something about you...

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko<a t)dse(d o t>nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Quoted message said:

Oh no! Not another thread deteriorating into Europe vs USA!

They are apples and oranges. You cannot compare them directly.

The only thing one can say with certainty is that some people like
apples, some like oranges.

Sorry Joseph, I didn't see that as deterioration.

But a lot can be compared directly between the two, and besides the
difference in flavour, which I respect, there are also some advantages
to each and some lessons learned by one of the two which the other side
can learn and gain from. Ignoring those is asking for more trouble...

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko<a t)dse(d o t>nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://kayaker.nl/

Wilko said:

Quoted message said:

Oh no! Not another thread deteriorating into Europe vs USA!

They are apples and oranges. You cannot compare them directly.

The only thing one can say with certainty is that some people like
apples, some like oranges.

Sorry Joseph, I didn't see that as deterioration.

But a lot can be compared directly between the two, and besides the
difference in flavour, which I respect, there are also some advantages
to each and some lessons learned by one of the two which the other side
can learn and gain from. Ignoring those is asking for more trouble...

I was merely trying to stave off a series of silly simplistic out of
context comparisons. Any society is a complex combination of
interworking variables which can perhaps be presented in both a good
and bad light particularly when one is free to do so without having to
provide any backing information or context. I am American, but I have
lived for 12 years in Europe and Scandinavia (in both instances "going
native"😉, so I have a broader perspective on these issues than both the
average American, and the average European. (I don't mean to imply that
you are an average European, nor that you have a poor knowledge of the
US, just pointing out my "qualifications"😉

You are most certainly correct. There are indeed things to compare, and
as you say more importantly, learn from. But nothing is learned from
one-line comments disparaging one at the cost of another posted to a
bicycle newsgroup!

Joseph

"Wilko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

NYC XYZ said:

Mark Leuck said:

Well yea they are European after all

Meaning that we use pragmatism and personal responsibility instead of
sueing or laws to protect us from ourselves when we do something stupid
that we and we alone are responsible for, right? :-)

Jeez, where has this idiot been all of my life?

Quoted message said:

Ever wonder why so many (also U.S.) tourists come to Amsterdam? They want
to try legal marihuana, legal prostitution and a society that thinks more
pragmatically than paternalistically.

Those American tourists who go to Amsterdam are into slumming and would
never behave that badly back home. Very many European cities have long
enjoyed the reputation as ideal spots for us Americans to go abroad and
behave like baboons. Amsterdam is like Las Vegas for us, but without any of
the glitz.

Personally, I couldn't

Quoted message said:

care less if prostitution or soft drugs are legal. I don't have a need for
either, but it sure helps to decriminalize the people involved. They pay
taxes and get healthcare benefits like everyone else, and don't need to do
their business in shady corners.

There can never be too many laws to control human behavior. I would make it
a death sentence to even spit on the street. Jay walking would get you 20
years in prison. Also, I would have severe penalties for anyone who even
looked at me crosswise. The g.d. Dutch are the laughing stock of the world.
Your Muslim emigrants are going to cut you up and feed you to your own
swine. Since the Dutch behave like swine, that is where they belong.
[...]

Quoted message said:

Wilko van den Bergh wilko<a t)dse(d o t>nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe

You don't have to tell us that tiny little postage stamp sized Holland is
located in Europe. Even we dumb Americans know that much. Why are you living
in Eindhoven when you could be living in wonderful Amsterdam, consorting
with prostitutes and shooting yourself up with drugs. What's the matter?
Don't like those good solid folks there in Freaking Amsterdam?

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Wilko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Leuck said:

"Wilko" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

NYC XYZ wrote:
> Mark Leuck wrote:
>> Well yea they are European after all

Quoted message said:

Meaning that we use pragmatism and personal responsibility instead of
sueing or laws to protect us from ourselves when we do something stupid
that we and we alone are responsible for, right? :-)

Ever wonder why so many (also U.S.) tourists come to Amsterdam? They
want to try legal marihuana, legal prostitution and a society that
thinks more pragmatically than paternalistically. Personally, I couldn't
care less if prostitution or soft drugs are legal. I don't have a need
for either, but it sure helps to decriminalize the people involved. They
pay taxes and get healthcare benefits like everyone else, and don't need
to do their business in shady corners.

I don't recall ever mentioning marijuana or prostitution or legalizing
helmets, you've got some serious pent up anger going there

I wasn't angry, but then again I didn't call anyone fools either.

Actually, Mark is quite right about any cyclist not wearing a rear view
mirror being a fool, but it is especially true if you are riding a recumbent
style of bicycle. It is just way too difficult to be turning your head and
looking backwards on a recumbent. Furthermore, you will not do it often
enough to be safe. All recumbent cyclists should be wearing a rear view
mirror attached to their helmets or else attached to their eyeglasses.

Quoted message said:

As for picking what you feel like responding to with empty one liners,
instead of going into a discussion about the argumentation behind those
one liners, be my guest. It sure says something about you...

Mark Leuck is the master of the one liner. I have taken him to task for this
many times as I have for his lack of punctuation. But it does no good. He
likes himself the way he is - and he is not even Great like I am. Go figure!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Leuck said:

Only a fool would ride without a mirror, please get one

That's completely over the top. Thousands of riders don't use mirrors
and get about quite safely.

It's almost as dopey as saying you're doomed without a helmet...

Pete.

On a normal bike I can see your point however on a recumbent it's a
different matter

Nope, even on a regular upright bike you should be wearing a rear view
mirror. Most cyclists simply will not look back often enough without a rear
view mirror. With a rear view mirror you are more or less CONSTANTLY
monitoring what is coming from behind. Anyone who does not do this is a
fool. Mark and I agree on that much at least.

Peter Clinch is a nut from the UK who has idiosyncratic opinions on just
about everything. You listen to nuts like him at your peril. Instead, you
want always to listen to Great Ones like MYSELF who have distilled the
wisdom of the ages. That is why I am known far and wide as Ed Dolan the
Great.

I am also possessed of Great Holiness, but that is another story for another
thread when Saint Edward the Great will kick in and lead all your sorry
asses to salvation. Do not go near those street prostitutes that Wilko van
den Berg of Eindhoven, The Netherlands, wants you to visit in wonderful old
Amsterdam. They have every venereal disease known to mankind and all they
want to do is to give you a good dose of it.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"NYC XYZ" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Leuck said:

On a normal bike I can see your point however on a recumbent it's a
different matter

Dude, I was real surprised myself -- I'd even bought a $20 German
rear-view mirror in anticipation. But I'd taken it out for a spin
before installing the mirror, having forgotten all about it -- then I
realized, hey! I'm looking behind me naturally, instinctively turning
my head after scanning the road ahead and slowing down, and I've been
turning my head all along without realizing it!!

I'll need a few more rides to be real sure, but for now I honestly
believe that I don't "need" a mirror! At no time did I feel
inconvenienced, such that I totally forgot I didn't have a mirror at
first!

You will get lazy and you will not turn your head and look back as often as
you should. Use your rear view mirror. It is just so much easier and it soon
becomes second nature to be looking in it every few seconds. Finally, it
will save your life when you least expect it.

Any recumbent cyclist who does not use a rear view mirror is a fool. Mark
said it first but I am saying it last.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Leuck said:

On a normal bike I can see your point however on a recumbent it's a
different matter

"a recumbent" covers a /huge/ range of designs, some of which make it
practically impossible to look behind easily (extreme lowracers), and some
where it's a complete non-issue. So sweeping everything into one pot just
doesn't make sense.

All recumbents have more in common than they do not. There is no recumbent
that makes it easy for you to turn your head and see what is coming behind
you. What an idiot Peter Clinch is!

Quoted message said:

I have a mirror on my Streetmachine, but I don't need it. OP has a
Streetmachine, and finds he can look around, so what's the problem?

The problem is that Peter Clinch is a nut case. He always has been and he
always will be.

Oddly enough I have never yet known a single cyclist from the UK whom I did
not regard as a nut case. Apparently, that is the only kind of folks that
cycling attracts in the UK. I would never listen to anything any of them
have to say about anything - unless they wanted to explain how they got to
be so crazy.

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Screw him and his stupid signature. That alone is reason enough to despise
him. He is crazy!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Don't hold it in, Ed, let us know how you really feel. Strange how
you're so het up about Muslim immigrants. Your posts make me think
you're a Taliban.

I would also like to point out that this seems to always happen when
someone crossposts to a lot of groups. Those biker types appear to be a
surly crowd. Oh, no I didn't mean _you_, Ed.

r.b.p posters might want to read the newsgroup routings a little better.
No point arguing about 'bents in r.b.p. Wilko, go ahead and have at 'em.

Steve

Edward Dolan said:

There can never be too many laws to control human behavior. I would make it
a death sentence to even spit on the street. Jay walking would get you 20
years in prison. Also, I would have severe penalties for anyone who even
looked at me crosswise. The g.d. Dutch are the laughing stock of the world.
Your Muslim emigrants are going to cut you up and feed you to your own
swine. Since the Dutch behave like swine, that is where they belong.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

Wilko said:

Meaning that we use pragmatism and personal responsibility instead of
sueing or laws to protect us from ourselves when we do something stupid
that we and we alone are responsible for, right? :-)

Ever wonder why so many (also U.S.) tourists come to Amsterdam? They
want to try legal marihuana, legal prostitution and a society that
thinks more pragmatically than paternalistically.

This prompted me to ask a question... where someone vacations says
very little about their support or love of much about the place.
Normally it's about the weather or the scenery or the beaches or
whatever... not about a sweeping endorsement of their form of
government or social programs (though this can obviously help with the
choice).

To get THAT kind of data, you don't look at vacationers - you look at
those who MOVE to a country. They're the ones who are putting their
money (and lifestyle) where their opinions are.

Thing is, unless I'm very much mistaken, the balance of that
particular measure is tilted wildly in favor of those who move from
those places TO the US. I could be mistaken - and would gladly
welcome documented evidence to the contrary... and wouldn't be too
surprised to find that a lot of US citizens DO move to cities like
Amersterdam or Copenhagen (a recent customer sent me dozens of photos
of his new Habby in Copenhagen, and I can think of a lot of worse
places to live!).

Am I wrong? Are there countries with which the US has a immigration
deficit (more leaving than arriving)? I'm curious...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

"Steve Cramer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

ALL TOP POSTERS ARE IDIOTS!

Quoted message said:

Don't hold it in, Ed, let us know how you really feel. Strange how you're
so het up about Muslim immigrants. Your posts make me think you're a
Taliban.

The Muslims are up to no good wherever they are located in this world. I
would keep them confined to the Mid-East where they can murder one another
to their heart's content. My fondest wish is that Israel would nuke them all
one of these fine days.

Quoted message said:

I would also like to point out that this seems to always happen when
someone crossposts to a lot of groups. Those biker types appear to be a
surly crowd. Oh, no I didn't mean _you_, Ed.

ARBR is now a dead newsgroup, so I want to get others involved here if at
all possible. The subject does not matter as I never interfere with on-topic
subjects.

Quoted message said:

r.b.p posters might want to read the newsgroup routings a little better.
No point arguing about 'bents in r.b.p. Wilko, go ahead and have at 'em.

I will not post about 'bents to newsgroups where it doesn't belong. However,
I am mostly off-topic and so other groups can benefit from my immortal
wisdom.

I do not like characters like Wilko running down the US. The Europeans have
been living off the US ever since the end of W.W.II. They are ungrateful
children. Wilko should keep his freaking Netherlandish opinions about the US
to himself or else he will hear from me. The US never needs any lessons from
Europeans, ever the continent of failed diplomacy and warfare.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Wilko said:

Meaning that we use pragmatism and personal responsibility instead of
sueing or laws to protect us from ourselves when we do something stupid
that we and we alone are responsible for, right? :-)

Ever wonder why so many (also U.S.) tourists come to Amsterdam? They
want to try legal marihuana, legal prostitution and a society that
thinks more pragmatically than paternalistically.

This prompted me to ask a question... where someone vacations says
very little about their support or love of much about the place.
Normally it's about the weather or the scenery or the beaches or
whatever... not about a sweeping endorsement of their form of
government or social programs (though this can obviously help with the
choice).

To get THAT kind of data, you don't look at vacationers - you look at
those who MOVE to a country. They're the ones who are putting their
money (and lifestyle) where their opinions are.

Thing is, unless I'm very much mistaken, the balance of that
particular measure is tilted wildly in favor of those who move from
those places TO the US. I could be mistaken - and would gladly
welcome documented evidence to the contrary... and wouldn't be too
surprised to find that a lot of US citizens DO move to cities like
Amersterdam or Copenhagen (a recent customer sent me dozens of photos
of his new Habby in Copenhagen, and I can think of a lot of worse
places to live!).

Am I wrong? Are there countries with which the US has a immigration
deficit (more leaving than arriving)? I'm curious...

No way Mark! The entire world wants to emigrate to the US and no one here
wants to immigrate anywhere else. Wilko can rot in the Netherlands and
thinks what he wants to think. He is a liberal nut case as are most of the
pitiful Dutch. The rest of the world votes with their feet. They will
literally risk their lives to get here. The only people emigrating to the
Netherlands are Muslims. Who the hell wants them?

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota