Winter skills: Lakes

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 07:09:42 +0000, Peewiglet <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I plan to camp throughout the winter

Why, have you fallen behind on the mortgage payments?

Simon Caldwell said:

Quoted message said:

I plan to camp throughout the winter

Why, have you fallen behind on the mortgage payments?

Not yet, but nobody will put up with me at home.

<fx: sob>

hehe.... :-)

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Caldwell said:

Quoted message said:

I plan to camp throughout the winter

'tis the best time to camp. Everything is crisp, still, and pure......
Unless I decide to go out in which case all the snow melts and +0.1 degree
rain and hail swarm towards my face in 40mph winds. Still, it's better than
summer.

As for the winter skills course, you'll be lucky to find one in the lakes
because the snow conditions are so fickle. I suggest you do what I did;
teach yourself.
Trail/TGO/Climber and such always do articles on winter skills around about
now, read um, then try it.
I found walking with crampons to be no challenge at all and practising self
arrest with an axe was/is great fun (just make sure we wear full water
proofs and gaiters) and take a friend incase you don't quite make the arrest
;o) Obviously, choose a slope with an easy runout and not a 60ft cliff.
The chances are that if you're wearing crampons, you wont need the axe - but
you'd be pretty upset if you did and didn't have it.
Step cutting is, from my experience (which is admitidly limited), difficult
to practice because whenever there's been snow in the lakes it's been 90%
powder so steps are useless anyway.

Finally, a little foot note. If you don't have any friends that understand
the need to subject yourself to hours of cold and wet, but still want to
practice the self arrest, you could get yourself a 50/60m length of rope,
setup a bomber anchor (or three) and tie into the other end of the rope,
that way, if you fail to stop yourself after 50m, the rope will do it for
you, albeit quite abruptly.

Good Luck Peewiglet!

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 10:32:09 -0000, "Treefrog"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I plan to camp throughout the winter

'tis the best time to camp. Everything is crisp, still, and pure......
Unless I decide to go out in which case all the snow melts and +0.1 degree
rain and hail swarm towards my face in 40mph winds. Still, it's better than
summer.

As for the winter skills course, you'll be lucky to find one in the lakes
because the snow conditions are so fickle. I suggest you do what I did;
teach yourself.

<snip helpful stuff>

Thanks Treefrog 🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

In message <[email hidden]>, Peewiglet
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

I plan to camp throughout the winter, and so I'd like to brush up on
simple winter skills, like how not to slip and break my neck on a
snowy rock. I'm thinking maybe crampons, ice axe: that sort of thing.

Can anyone please recommend a simple, inexpensive course in the
Lakes/similar, or maybe an outfit up there that can do this sort of
thing one to one in the course of a day?

Many thanks for any help.

Best wishes,

The Blencathra Centre at Threlkeld do various courses but admit that
they are dependent on conditions. It's a long time since I went there
but their number is 017687 79633. They are part of the LDNPA.

--
Michael Farthing
Aardvark Ltd

Treefrog said:

I found walking with crampons to be no challenge at all

The problem with stuff like cramponing is the basics really /are/ very
easy: you just walk around, but with crampons on! But that easiness
leads to sloppy technique that can, very literally, trip you up when
things get trickier. There's more to crampons than walking in crampons,
which is not to say you can't teach yourself but you must be aware that
flatfooting a steep slope of hard nevee safely is a non-trivial game and
making it up as you go along isn't the most Cunning Plan.

Quoted message said:

and practising self
arrest with an axe was/is great fun (just make sure we wear full water
proofs and gaiters) and take a friend incase you don't quite make the arrest

The problem with teach yourself is you don't have an objective eye to
tell you what you're doing less well than you might. If you've got a
friend along that knows what they're at then they can provide this, and
it's probably more useful than a "catching service", especially if
you've got a good spot where worst case is getting buried in a drift at
the bottom.

Quoted message said:

The chances are that if you're wearing crampons, you wont need the axe

If the terrain you're travelling through is all gentle gradients and
there's little but hard nevee and water ice down then maybe, but IME
terrain changes on many walks and there are places you need an axe
(steep ground, generally) where crampons alone are no substitute, and in
fresh, deep snow in UK conditions crampons usually ball up terribly and
are more trouble than they're worth.
IME an axe is considerably more use than a pair of crampons in the UK hills.

Quoted message said:

Finally, a little foot note. If you don't have any friends that understand
the need to subject yourself to hours of cold and wet, but still want to
practice the self arrest, you could get yourself a 50/60m length of rope,
setup a bomber anchor (or three) and tie into the other end of the rope,
that way, if you fail to stop yourself after 50m, the rope will do it for
you, albeit quite abruptly.

As it stands that information is potentially very dangerous. This sort
of thing needs a rope designed to take dynamic loads, like a climbing
rope, and they aren't cheap. If you use any other rope you'll stop
/very/ abruptly and quite possibly hurt yourself badly, and maybe break
the rope too. Not too clever. You'd be much better off just looking
for a safe runout.

You don't need a winter skills course for this sort of thing, but
working with someone who knows what they're at (note this does /not/
necessarily mean professional guide) will get you up to speed quicker,
and probably a higher level. One thing self teaching requires is
confidence in your own ability to do it, and if you're not sure then it
may be worth throwing some money at it and take a course at PYB or
Glenmore Lodge. Sort of thing that you can put on your Christmas Wish
List, in fact.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

The problem with stuff like cramponing is the basics really /are/ very
easy: you just walk around, but with crampons on! But that easiness
leads to sloppy technique [...]

<snip good stuff>

Thanks, Pete.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Finally, a little foot note. If you don't have any friends that

understand

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the need to subject yourself to hours of cold and wet, but still want to
practice the self arrest, you could get yourself a 50/60m length of

rope,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

setup a bomber anchor (or three) and tie into the other end of the rope,
that way, if you fail to stop yourself after 50m, the rope will do it

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you, albeit quite abruptly.

As it stands that information is potentially very dangerous. This sort
of thing needs a rope designed to take dynamic loads, like a climbing
rope, and they aren't cheap. If you use any other rope you'll stop
/very/ abruptly and quite possibly hurt yourself badly, and maybe break
the rope too. Not too clever. You'd be much better off just looking
for a safe runout.

Indeed, sorry about that, I presumed that everybody would know I meant
dynamic climbing rope. It was meant as a last resort suggestion, a safe
runout is obviously the prefered option. Although, knowing there's a drop
ahead would probably perfect your self arrest ability quite quickly. ;o)

Also, as for the axe, I can only speak from experience. I have never
actually *needed* an axe whilst walking, but would never dream of walking in
snow/ice without one. Another point I didn't make clear enough. Gosh, I'd
make a good winter skills instructor.

In article <[email hidden]>, Treefrog
<URL:[email hidden]> wrote:
[snip]

Quoted message said:

The chances are that if you're wearing crampons, you wont need the axe
- but you'd be pretty upset if you did and didn't have it.

I can think of a few situations where wearing crampons but not carrying
an axe might be OK, but not many. Generally having an ice-axe ready, and
knowing how to use it, is an important part of winter skills.

A piece of advice I can offer you about carrying an ice-axe is that
generally it isn't much use to you strapped to the ice axe loops on the
back of most rucksacks! When you don't need it at all, and you are just
transporting it, then using the loops might be OK, but better still if
you can manage it, is to put it inside the sack so that it can't do much
harm to others. Generally when the axe is likely to be needed, either
carry it ready in your hand, or slide it down between the rucksack and
your shoulder blade. When stowed there it is a simple matter to reach up
and retrieve it as soon as you reach ground where it is needed.

Mike <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

Treefrog said:

Also, as for the axe, I can only speak from experience. I have never
actually *needed* an axe whilst walking

It's not so much the /walking/ side that you need one, they're primarily
for security on steep ground (and by security I mean more not falling in
the first place than self arrest). But if you're hill walking anywhere
you /might/ normally use a hand in summer, and a lot of people do, then
an axe is quite likely going to be the best tool.

And while crampons are only much use on hard stuff, axes work in soft
and porridgy which is quite often what you're confronted with in the UK.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Treefrog said:

Finally, a little foot note. If you don't have any friends that understand
the need to subject yourself to hours of cold and wet, but still want to
practice the self arrest, you could get yourself a 50/60m length of rope,
setup a bomber anchor (or three) and tie into the other end of the rope,
that way, if you fail to stop yourself after 50m, the rope will do it for
you, albeit quite abruptly.

Taking care not to drive the axe through the rope of course...
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Treefrog said:

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Simon Caldwell said:

>I plan to camp throughout the winter

'tis the best time to camp. Everything is crisp, still, and pure......
Unless I decide to go out in which case all the snow melts and +0.1 degree
rain and hail swarm towards my face in 40mph winds. Still, it's better than
summer.

Quoted message said:

Finally, a little foot note. If you don't have any friends that understand
the need to subject yourself to hours of cold and wet, but still want to
practice the self arrest, you could get yourself a 50/60m length of rope,
setup a bomber anchor (or three) and tie into the other end of the rope,
that way, if you fail to stop yourself after 50m, the rope will do it for
you, albeit quite abruptly.

Or, even better, replace the rope with a length of bungee cord. That
way, if you fail to stop yourself with the ice axe you won't have to
walk back to the top!!

Boing... :-)

--
Dave McLaughlin

[censored] Sapiens Non Urinat In Ventum

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris Malcolm

URL: said:

Treefrog said:

Finally, a little foot note. If you don't have any friends that understand
the need to subject yourself to hours of cold and wet, but still want to
practice the self arrest, you could get yourself a 50/60m length of rope,
setup a bomber anchor (or three) and tie into the other end of the rope,
that way, if you fail to stop yourself after 50m, the rope will do it for
you, albeit quite abruptly.

Taking care not to drive the axe through the rope of course...

I think if your plummeting down a slope for 50m out of control and are
suddenly brought to a halt by a climbing rope, and you are holding a
iceaxe in your hand, your're more likely to puncture yourself.

Clearly this is not a desirable outcome in a practice situation.....

Mike <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:09:47 +0000, Michael Farthing
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

The Blencathra Centre at Threlkeld do various courses but admit that
they are dependent on conditions. It's a long time since I went there
but their number is 017687 79633. They are part of the LDNPA.

Thanks, Michael.

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

In article <[email hidden]>, Peewiglet

URL: said:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:09:47 +0000, Michael Farthing
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

The Blencathra Centre at Threlkeld do various courses but admit that
they are dependent on conditions. It's a long time since I went there
but their number is 017687 79633. They are part of the LDNPA.

Thanks, Michael.

The other way of learning such skills would be to hire a qualified Guide
or mountain instructor for the day. The advantage is that you would get
personal tuition geared to your own level of abilities.

see www.bmg.org.uk for details

Mike <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

In message <[email hidden]>

Peewiglet said:

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 11:09:47 +0000, Michael Farthing
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

The Blencathra Centre at Threlkeld do various courses but admit that
they are dependent on conditions. It's a long time since I went there
but their number is 017687 79633. They are part of the LDNPA.

Thanks, Michael.

And talking of Blencathra, you can probably get up there quite happily
in winter without either crampons or ice axes. Depending on the way you go.
Others would be lethal (i.e. the ways up that aren't really dull). Of
course, you might not like the idea of slipping over all the time.

--
The Acorn Elite Pages: http://elite.acornarcade.com/
Three Dimensional Encounters:
http://www.helvellyn.plus.com/3dfrontier

On Fri, 19 Nov 2004 17:13:48 +0000, Mike Clark <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

The other way of learning such skills would be to hire a qualified Guide
or mountain instructor for the day. The advantage is that you would get
personal tuition geared to your own level of abilities.

see www.bmg.org.uk for details

Another helpful suggestion: many thanks 🙂

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

Treefrog said:

As for the winter skills course, you'll be lucky to find one in the lakes

The BMC do an annual doodah in Borrowdale over a weekend, shoose one
day or two.

SteveO

NE Climbers & walkers chat forum;
http://www.thenmc.org.uk/phpBB2/index.php

NMC website: http://www.thenmc.org.uk

SteveO said:

Treefrog said:

As for the winter skills course, you'll be lucky to find one in the lakes

The BMC do an annual doodah in Borrowdale over a weekend, shoose one
day or two.

Should have checked before I posted:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/event_det.asp?event_id=960
Conville Mountain Skills Workshops – February 2005
(Feb 26th or 27th)

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/event_det.asp?event_id=949
Conville Scottish Winter Mountaineering Courses
(five 2-day courses Jan/Feb 2005)

SteveO

NE Climbers & walkers chat forum;
http://www.thenmc.org.uk/phpBB2/index.php

NMC website: http://www.thenmc.org.uk