Windsor Bicycle Opinions?

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:48:45 -0400, "Michael S. Moorhead" <[email hidden]> from Cornell

University said:

I'm considering buying the '04 Windsor Knight from bikesdirect.com. The local bike guy says ...

"If you buy it, you're stabbing me in the back!"

I hope he charges you triple for setting it up.

--
home.sport.rr.comcuthuluOpen ↗ human rights = peace I had a lease on an OEDIPUS COMPLEX back
in '81 ...
4:33:33 PM 7 October 2003

"Kevan Smith" <[email hidden]/\/\> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 16:48:45 -0400, "Michael S. Moorhead"

<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

from Cornell University said:

I'm considering buying the '04 Windsor Knight from bikesdirect.com. The local bike guy says ...

"If you buy it, you're stabbing me in the back!"

I hope he charges you triple for setting it up.

I'm sure the LBS will make plenty on labor. Don't LBS make most money on accessories, anyway? I
mean, the profit margin on bikes is pretty slim.

On Tue, 07 Oct 2003 23:09:58 GMT, "Slider2699" <[email hidden]> from RoadRunner - Tampa

Bay said:

I'm sure the LBS will make plenty on labor. Don't LBS make most money on accessories, anyway? I
mean, the profit margin on bikes is pretty slim.

Accessories and labor. Yep. But building a bike from a box isn't that hard nowadays. My favorite
wrench tells me it takes him just over an hour. I just find somthing unpalatable about shopping for
a bike online, asking if your LBS can beat the price, then asking them to build it when they say no.
--
home.sport.rr.comcuthuluOpen ↗ human rights = peace a quickly singing knife cash an ice play
12:11:37 AM 8 October 2003

Kevan Smith said:

Accessories and labor. Yep. But building a bike from a box isn't that hard nowadays. My
favorite wrench tells me it takes him just over an hour. I just find somthing unpalatable about
shopping for a bike online, asking if your LBS can beat the price, then asking them to build it
when they say no.
--
home.sport.rr.comcuthuluOpen ↗ human rights = peace a quickly singing knife cash an ice play
12:11:37 AM 8 October 2003

I agree but still I can ship a surly 1*1 frame and fork to australia from Harris cyclery cheaper
than buying one here. I mean $350 cheaper too. Of course I'll be buying mechanical discs, wheels,
cranks, saddles etc locally so they shouldn't feel too hard done by. I like supporting my LBS but
still $350 is a lot of money. Especially on a US$400 frame.

--
Cheers Damian Harvey

This space reserved for standard disclaimer, witty quote, plug for own business in caps and large,
bad ASCII art.

Guys,

I didn't ask him to match/beat the price. I had been looking at a Fuji Roubaix, and knew that his
prices were already about as cheap as they could possibly get. I can't imagine that he was making an
absurd profit in the first place (<$100?). He has, and will continue to, make plenty of money off me
in the future. For maybe up to a 25% difference, I would certainly buy products from the LBS, but
beyond that, I have to weigh my options carefully. In this case, the savings would be $380 for a
comparably equipped bike. If $200 of that were directed back to his shop, I'm absolutely positive
that both he and I would be quite happy with the situation.

Anyhow, does anyone know anything about these bikes? The "support your LBS" line doesn't hold weight
with me because I already do.

MSM

P.S. - Certainly not intended to start a flame... I'm looking for serious buying advice.

"Damian Harvey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Kevan Smith said:

Accessories and labor. Yep. But building a bike from a box isn't that

hard

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nowadays. My favorite wrench tells me it takes him just over an hour. I

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

find somthing unpalatable about shopping for a bike online, asking if

your LBS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

can beat the price, then asking them to build it when they say no.
--
home.sport.rr.comcuthuluOpen ↗ human rights = peace a quickly singing knife cash an ice play
12:11:37 AM 8 October 2003

I agree but still I can ship a surly 1*1 frame and fork to australia from Harris cyclery cheaper
than buying one here. I mean $350 cheaper too. Of course I'll be buying mechanical discs, wheels,
cranks, saddles etc locally so they shouldn't feel too hard done by. I like supporting my LBS but
still $350 is a lot of money. Especially on a US$400 frame.

--
Cheers Damian Harvey

This space reserved for standard disclaimer, witty quote, plug for own business in caps and large,
bad ASCII art.

Michael S. Moorhead said:

I also know that Windsor, along with Motobecane and Mercier, are NOT the same companies that they
used to be.

Windsor never was the company it used to be.

Art "Yogi" Harris

Mike:

I haven't done research myself on Windsor's, but if you look farther down the posts there is someone
else who made the same basic inquiry you made. They are saying this bike is manufactured in a second
rate process in Mexico. I think supporting Windsor would be a mistake if this is true.

About your local bike shop; Of course he would not complain about servicing a Windsor if he already
knows you "WILL" need plenty of his service on a shoddy bike. I would think that if this is true, he
is not a very reputable businessman.

As for markup on bikes, do not fool yourself into believing the LBS makes very little profit. The
markup is as high as 120% on the higher end bike, i.e., Trek 2300/5200 and up, or the Klein Quantum
line and any other bike in the same price range. I say this from direct experience. I bought a bike
for my son from a shop where he worked. I dealt strictly with his boss/shopowner. He sold me the
bike at cost because he knew it was for my son, obviously from above his employee. The retail on
this Klein Quantum Race was $2500, I paid $1188.

In my opinion, wait for a better bike to go up for bid. A used and well taken care of bike would be
a far better choice then the Windsor.

Happy shopping, happy riding, -RB

"Michael S. Moorhead" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

All,

I'm considering buying the '04 Windsor Knight from bikesdirect.com. The local bike guy says he
couldn't even approach the price ($695) for a similar bike and that he'd be O.K. with setting it
up and swapping out anything that didn't fit.

Does ANYONE have an informed opinion on these bikes. Bikesdirect.com and Sprtymama on E-bay seem
to be the only U.S. sellers. Both appear to have excellent buyer feedback, so I don't think they
can get away with selling total [censored]. On the other hand, I realize that I'm not buying a $2000
bike here. I also know that Windsor, along with Motobecane and Mercier, are NOT the same companies
that they used to be.

I would feel slightly better if I knew ONE person out there who has had a good experience with
these bikes. On the other hand, I would be eternally grateful if anyone with first-hand experience
could tell me that they had a BAD experience before I go ahead and make this purchase.

Thanks,

Mike Moorhead

(RB) said:

I haven't done research myself on Windsor's, but if you look farther down the posts there is
someone else who made the same basic inquiry you made. They are saying this bike is manufactured
in a second rate process in Mexico. I think supporting Windsor would be a mistake if this is true.

Those were the Windsors of old. I'm pretty sure the current "Windsors" are made in Asia.

Quoted message said:

As for markup on bikes, do not fool yourself into believing the LBS makes very little profit. The
markup is as high as 120% on the higher end bike, i.e., Trek 2300/5200 and up, or the Klein
Quantum line and any other bike in the same price range.

Extremely unlikely.

Art Harris

"Art Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (RB) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for markup on bikes, do not fool yourself into believing the LBS makes very little profit.
The markup is as high as 120% on the higher end bike, i.e., Trek 2300/5200 and up, or the Klein
Quantum line and any other bike in the same price range.

Extremely unlikely.

Agree, the bicycle industry does NOT have very high mark up, unlike say cars. I would say, 40% is
getting close to max markup. LBS make their money off of service ($55-75/hr labor) and some
accessories which can have a markup as high as 50%. Don't believe me? Attend one of those seminars
at Interbike - where they *encourage* you to max profits of 38, 40, even 45%!

Hello Art and bfd:

If the LBS only makes 38/45% profit as you say, how in the world did I get a $2,500 retail bike for
$1,188? The math does not add up. Let us see...$1188 wholesale x 110.5% profit = a profit of
$1312.74. Now the retail would be what? Darn, it is $2,500.74! This is very simple math
wouldn’t you agree?

I do believe the lower end bikes have a much smaller profit margin. However, the high-end bikes
have an enormous mark up. Is it possible that you're referring to an average month end, or
year-end, profit for the LBS for "all" of his business? That could be far more reasonable.
Nevertheless, to take my comment out of context and dispute it as wrong would be a great
misrepresentation of the reality.

Personally, I do not support my LBS; most in my area are crooks who hire untrained kids as
mechanic/salespersons. This includes the shop where my son worked. I literally drive 25 miles
away to a shop that treats me and my bike like VIP's. I firmly believe that the professionalism
of this shop, the vast experience, and the mechanical knowledge of seasoned employees, is well
worth the mark up I paid. It affords me a grand return from their service. Choose your bike AND
your shop wisely.

Okay “crooks” is harsh I confess, they are not really crooks, but unworthy of my
business just the same. They were quickly and easily outgrown once I started biking seriously. I
suppose they have their place in the learning curve one goes through when one begins to ride and
study bikes. It’s not really reasonable to start out biking and spend thousands of dollars to
“see” if you’re going to “like” biking. The LBS’s I refer to are
like a grade school compared to a graduate school. On the other hand, the good shops also have a
wide variety of bikes and will accommodate almost anyone’s financial abilities. The main
question to ask first then when looking for a good bike should be what shop in my area is good.

-RB

"bfd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Art Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (RB) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for markup on bikes, do not fool yourself into believing the LBS makes very little profit.
The markup is as high as 120% on the higher end bike, i.e., Trek 2300/5200 and up, or the
Klein Quantum line and any other bike in the same price range.

Extremely unlikely.

Agree, the bicycle industry does NOT have very high mark up, unlike say cars. I would say, 40% is
getting close to max markup. LBS make their money off of service ($55-75/hr labor) and some
accessories which can have a markup as high as 50%. Don't believe me? Attend one of those seminars
at Interbike - where they *encourage* you to max profits of 38, 40, even 45%!

Did anyone buy one of these Windsor bikes? The prices look great, which leads me to believe that there is a catch.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rb
[B]Hello Art and bfd:

If the LBS only makes 38/45% profit as you say, how in the world did I get a $2,500 retail bike for
$1,188? The math does not add up. Let us see...$1188 wholesale x 110.5% profit = a profit of
$1312.74. Now the retail would be what? Darn, it is $2,500.74! This is very simple math
wouldn’t you agree?

I do believe the lower end bikes have a much smaller profit margin. However, the high-end bikes
have an enormous mark up. Is it possible that you're referring to an average month end, or
year-end, profit for the LBS for "all" of his business? That could be far more reasonable.
Nevertheless, to take my comment out of context and dispute it as wrong would be a great
misrepresentation of the reality.

Personally, I do not support my LBS; most in my area are crooks who hire untrained kids as
mechanic/salespersons. This includes the shop where my son worked. I literally drive 25 miles
away to a shop that treats me and my bike like VIP's. I firmly believe that the professionalism
of this shop, the vast experience, and the mechanical knowledge of seasoned employees, is well
worth the mark up I paid. It affords me a grand return from their service. Choose your bike AND
your shop wisely.

Okay “crooks” is harsh I confess, they are not really crooks, but unworthy of my
business just the same. They were quickly and easily outgrown once I started biking seriously. I
suppose they have their place in the learning curve one goes through when one begins to ride and
study bikes. It’s not really reasonable to start out biking and spend thousands of dollars to
“see” if you’re going to “like” biking. The LBS’s I refer to are
like a grade school compared to a graduate school. On the other hand, the good shops also have a
wide variety of bikes and will accommodate almost anyone’s financial abilities. The main
question to ask first then when looking for a good bike should be what shop in my area is good.

-RB

"bfd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Art Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (RB) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for markup on bikes, do not fool yourself into believing the LBS makes very little profit.
The markup is as high as 120% on the higher end bike, i.e., Trek 2300/5200 and up, or the
Klein Quantum line and any other bike in the same price range.

Extremely unlikely.

Agree, the bicycle industry does NOT have very high mark up, unlike say cars. I would say, 40% is
getting close to max markup. LBS make their money off of service ($55-75/hr labor) and some
accessories which can have a markup as high as 50%. Don't believe me? Attend one of those seminars
at Interbike - where they *encourage* you to max profits of 38, 40, even 45%! [/B]

Gang, RB is right. I worked several years at a small shop. An annual profit of 34-45 would be
correct. Low end bikes bring in more money after sale than high end bikes. The higher priced bike
are easlily more dependable. So accordingly there is less profit at the original sale of a lessor
priced bike than high priced bikes. The shop owners and the industry have this all worked out. It is
only the public who is unaware. In the end it really is cheaper to buy an expensive bike in the
beginning. Over a course of years you'll spend a great deal less when you combine the cost of
maintenance. You really do get what you pay for. Bike people in the shops will treat better as well
when you buy a more expensive bike, they want you to come back more often like their other
customers.

[email hidden] (RB) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello Art and bfd:

If the LBS only makes 38/45% profit as you say, how in the world did I get a $2,500 retail bike
for $1,188? The math does not add up. Let us see...$1188 wholesale x 110.5% profit = a profit of
$1312.74. Now the retail would be what? Darn, it is $2,500.74! This is very simple math
wouldn’t you agree?

I do believe the lower end bikes have a much smaller profit margin. However, the high-end bikes
have an enormous mark up. Is it possible that you're referring to an average month end, or
year-end, profit for the LBS for "all" of his business? That could be far more reasonable.
Nevertheless, to take my comment out of context and dispute it as wrong would be a great
misrepresentation of the reality.

Personally, I do not support my LBS; most in my area are crooks who hire untrained kids as
mechanic/salespersons. This includes the shop where my son worked. I literally drive 25 miles
away to a shop that treats me and my bike like VIP's. I firmly believe that the professionalism
of this shop, the vast experience, and the mechanical knowledge of seasoned employees, is well
worth the mark up I paid. It affords me a grand return from their service. Choose your bike AND
your shop wisely.

Okay “crooks” is harsh I confess, they are not really crooks, but unworthy of my
business just the same. They were quickly and easily outgrown once I started biking seriously.
I suppose they have their place in the learning curve one goes through when one begins to ride
and study bikes. It’s not really reasonable to start out biking and spend thousands of
dollars to “see” if you’re going to “like” biking. The
LBS’s I refer to are like a grade school compared to a graduate school. On the other
hand, the good shops also have a wide variety of bikes and will accommodate almost
anyone’s financial abilities. The main question to ask first then when looking for a good
bike should be what shop in my area is good.

-RB

"bfd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Art Harris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (RB) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> As for markup on bikes, do not fool yourself into believing the LBS makes very little
> profit. The markup is as high as 120% on the higher end bike, i.e., Trek 2300/5200 and up,
> or the Klein Quantum line and any other bike in the same price range.

Extremely unlikely.

Agree, the bicycle industry does NOT have very high mark up, unlike say cars. I would say, 40%
is getting close to max markup. LBS make their money off of service ($55-75/hr labor) and some
accessories which can have a markup as high as 50%. Don't believe me? Attend one of those
seminars at Interbike - where they *encourage* you to max profits of 38, 40, even 45%!

Quoted message said:

The shop owners and the industry have this all worked out. It is only the public who is unaware.

Um, this conspiracy is bigger than you have dared to imagine.

The consumer is encouraged to buy a high end bicycle by certain, uh, designated agents on bicycle
newsgroups. These agents naturally get an annual percentage of the average sale proceeds.

In return for tolerating and abetting these agents, the rest of the newsgroup members get to buy the
same bicycles back a few years later at garage sale prices from the original consumer.

Occasionally these aiders and abettors may go to an LBS and make a token purchase or two, to keep
the system going.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

Eric S. Sande said:

Quoted message said:

The shop owners and the industry have this all worked out. It is only the public who is unaware.

Um, this conspiracy is bigger than you have dared to imagine.

The consumer is encouraged to buy a high end bicycle by certain, uh, designated agents on bicycle
newsgroups. These agents naturally get an annual percentage of the average sale proceeds.

Of course, the best evidence of such a conspiracy is the massive amount of money being made by
bicycle dealers and manufacturers. Now, where did I leave my Bentley?

Todd Kuzma Heron Bicycles Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
heronbicycles.comheronbicycles.comOpen ↗ tullios.comtullios.comOpen ↗

Eric S. Sande said:

Quoted message said:

The shop owners and the industry have this all worked out. It is only the public who is unaware.

Quoted message said:

Um, this conspiracy is bigger than you have dared to imagine.

Quoted message said:

The consumer is encouraged to buy a high end bicycle by certain, uh, designated agents on bicycle
newsgroups. These agents naturally get an annual percentage of the average sale proceeds.

Quoted message said:

In return for tolerating and abetting these agents, the rest of the newsgroup members get to buy
the same bicycles back a few years later at garage sale prices from the original consumer.

Quoted message said:

Occasionally these aiders and abettors may go to an LBS and make a token purchase or two, to keep
the system going.

You had to let the cat out of the bag, didn't you.

Art Harris

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Michael S. Moor
All,

I'm considering buying the '04 Windsor Knight from bikesdirect.com. The local bike guy says he
couldn't even approach the price ($695) for a similar bike and that he'd be O.K. with setting it up
and swapping out anything that didn't fit.

Does ANYONE have an informed opinion on these bikes. Bikesdirect.com and Sprtymama on E-bay seem to
be the only U.S. sellers. Both appear to have excellent buyer feedback, so I don't think they can
get away with selling total [censored]. On the other hand, I realize that I'm not buying a $2000 bike
here. I also know that Windsor, along with Motobecane and Mercier, are NOT the same companies that
they used to be.

I would feel slightly better if I knew ONE person out there who has had a good experience with these
bikes. On the other hand, I would be eternally grateful if anyone with first-hand experience could
tell me that they had a BAD experience before I go ahead and make this purchase.

Thanks,

Mike Moorhead

I did purchase the Windsor Knight from Bikes direct and overall it was a good experience. I ended up emailing them and having them call me so I could get some information. The bike itself has been great so far. They are shipped directly so the people who own bikes direct never see the bikes. Just a middle man. The only thing I need to do is have it tuned up because it was not prepped by a bike shop. I would recommend the bike. You can't beat a full 105 group for $700. Good luck.

Eric

I was in same spot. Below is some info I posted last week. Hope it helps.

I have been shopping online and on E-Bay for a new bike. Two sellers with great deals on "2nd tier" products like Motobecane and Mercier are Bikesdirect.com and SPRTYMAMA, who sells mass numbers of bikes on Ebay. I have been doing some research on these businesses. It appears that Sptrymama is a woman named Courtney Spratt from Ponte Vedra, FL. I believe she has the license or owns the brand name for Motobecane and perhaps other brands. I also think she may run the very slimmed down Motobecane website. She and bikesdirect.com seem to be the only two businesses selling Motobecane on the internet. However, I have found Motobecane products at one LBS in Seattle, and they confirmed that the source is the same as on the internet sales.

My research reveals that Courtney Spratt and her husband Michael, appear to have been in the bike business for a number of years. They have strong connections with Bikesdirect.com owner David Sander, who also owns the Cycle Spectrum stores in Florida, Texas and one or two other states. see

http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/corde...&r7=SANDERD&r8=

This is a link to the Florida Corportations Department which shows that a company called CS Bikes has Michael and Courtney Spratt as officers, as well as David Sandler. In other words, its possible bikesdirect.com = SPRTYMAMA = Cycle Spectrum.

What does this all mean? I am not sure. On the one hand, it seems that brands like Motobecane and Chinese made bikes are held by this one small company with very limited distribution and marketing and you need to be careful about warranty issues and quality. On the other hand, SPRTYMAMA has excellent feedback on Ebay and clearly has connections with Cycle Spectrum, which has about 30 +REAL bike shops. Also, the fact that, at least in my area, you can actually buy Motobecanes in an LBS is a good sign.

Hope this helps people out ther in the same position I have been in. Chime in.

"levs" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What does this all mean? I am not sure. On the one hand, it seems that brands like Motobecane and
Chinese made bikes are held by this one small company with very limited distribution and marketing
and you need to be careful about warranty issues and quality. On the other hand, SPRTYMAMA has
excellent feedback on Ebay and clearly has connections with Cycle Spectrum, which has about 30
+REAL bike shops. Also, the fact that, at least in my area, you can actually buy Motobecanes in an
LBS is a good sign.

As I have posted before, the quality of the Cycle Spectrum shops leaves a lot to be desired. They
are filled with low-end bicycles and parts and the staff seems as educated about bicycles as most
department store clerks. If you are looking for cheap and you know how to take care of your own
bikes, this is the place to go. Otherwise, I would avoid them.

-Buck

All,

I went ahead and purchased the Windsor Falkirk from bikesdirect.com. This bike is the same as the
Knight except it has full Ultegra components (for only $200 more). Everything looked acceptable out
of the box, but as has been stated before, there was considerable tuning up necessary. The wheels
were out of true, the deraileurs were far from adjusted, and the cables were installed oddly. It is
currently in the LBS for a very thorough tune-up. I will post again to let people how it rides
(that's the important part, right?). I can't tell where they skimped yet, so as long as you don't
expect to ride it out of the box, it looks like a good deal at under $1k.

Best,

MSM