Will lifting help sprint power?

Uhl said:

If that's the case, doesn't it stand to reason that a road cyclist could improve their sprint by lifting?

Absolutely. But most road cyclists would benefit far more from just doing sprints on the bike, either as specific workouts or just thrown into endurance rides. This has the added benefit of not adding mass and decreasing mitochondrial density, etc. Also, it's important to note that your abilities as a road sprinter are dictated more by how you got to 200m to go, rather than what you do from there. For example, I was one of the strongest riders aerobically in the cat 3 races I did this year, yet I still lost anywhere from 100-200+watts in my sprint at the end of a race vs. a "fresh" sprint. In fact, my peak power in most crits typically occurred jumping out of a corner in the first few laps, rather than in the field sprint at the end.

If it was an either/or choice, then I agree that performing on-the-bike sprint workouts would be better. But what about doing both? Or what about when you can't get outside due to weather?

I realize that you can still do some neuromuscular workouts indoors, but personally I find it impossible to sprint "all out" on an indoor trainer due to the fixed nature of the bike.

Maybe the Kurt Kinetic Rock & Roll or the E-Motion Rollers would help?! The video of the rider sprinting on the E-Motion is impressive! :eek:

Uhl said:

But what about doing both?

Well, then you're risking losing those oh-so-important aerobic abilities for small gains in sprint power. Most roadies are probaly nowhere near their potential sprint-wise, so it's not really worth the trade-off imho.

QUOTE=Uhl]Or what about when you can't get outside due to weather?

[/QUOTE]
Well, you can always do leg-speed sprints indoors. Most good sprinters seem to favor high cadences. If you absolutely must do off-the-bike workouts aimed at improving your sprint, I would suggest plyometrics. But again, aerobic workouts trump all, followed distantly by sprints on the bike, followed even more distantly by anything off-bike.

Uhl said:

I realize that you can still do some neuromuscular workouts indoors, but personally I find it impossible to sprint "all out" on an indoor trainer due to the fixed nature of the bike.

Maybe the Kurt Kinetic Rock & Roll or the E-Motion Rollers would help?! The video of the rider sprinting on the E-Motion is impressive! :eek:

Sure you can do some NM work inside, but as you alluded to, it isn't the same. Rather I should say, it doesn't feel the same, nor is it for me anyway, as productive. The movement of the bike doesn't feel natural, and plus, I find there's some slippage which throws off my timing.

Just for kicks, I've played with some sprints indoors on the trainer at the end of L4 sessions, but I can only get to 1200w. Outside I can easily better that.

I do all my sprint training outdoors - both for terrain which I can choose according to what I want to do and practicing bike handling skills in an all-out sprint.

EDIT: No weight training in my plans, nor have I ever done any. If I became a dedicated track racer though, competing in a points race or doing match sprints, then maybe. On second thought, nah!

Uhl said:

I agree that lifting will probably not increase FTP or enhance climbing ability, but if people want to lift for enjoyment, or to increase bone density, or to be a better all-around athlete, then I think that's great. I wholeheartedly agree with Kopride's post that not everyone wants to be so one-dimensional. But I keep seeing the statement that lifting doesn't help cycling, "unless you're a match sprinter." So is this an admission that lifting does help sprint power???

If that's the case, doesn't it stand to reason that a road cyclist could improve their sprint by lifting? After all, most mass-start races come down to a sprint. Whether from a large pack or a small breakaway, unless you've gone solo, you will sprint at the line. It may not require the same kind of power as a match sprint, where riders sometimes start from a standstill, but it is still a sprint.

I understand you have to be in the "final selection" in order to sprint for the win, so the rider needs to primarily train the physiological systems that that will get them there (LT, VO2max, etc.). But assuming the rider is already training those systems optimally, what's wrong with a little strength training to help their sprint power?

This might help clarify matters (but maybe not! :eek: ):

http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/misc/id4.html

acoggan said:

This might help clarify matters (but maybe not! :eek: ):

home.earthlink.netid4.htmlOpen ↗

Hi Dr. Coggan 🙂

I found the article concise and easy to read, but I have a question that pertains to one of the points.

Realize I am paraphrasing but it indicates the the primary vehicle for increasing strength is in fact neural adaptations as opposed to hypertrophy.

Now is this strictly the case for weightlifting or would the same be said of a dedicated sprint training program on the bike? IOW, the gains from sprint training on the bike would be primarily from neural gains rather than hypertrophy. Si? No? 🙂

EDIT: I have seen discussions on this form related to how quickly different systems detrain (FTP vs. Vo2max vs. AWC) - is there any information on NM power? Does it also detrain? And if so, how does it compare to the other systems?

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Hi Dr. Coggan 🙂

I found the article concise and easy to read, but I have a question that pertains to one of the points.

Realize I am paraphrasing but it indicates the the primary vehicle for increasing strength is in fact neural adaptations as opposed to hypertrophy.

During the first few weeks to possibly months, yes.

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Now is this strictly the case for weightlifting or would the same be said of a dedicated sprint training program on the bike? IOW, the gains from sprint training on the bike would be primarily from neural gains rather than hypertrophy. Si? No? 🙂

The reason that neural adaptations dominate the early going is largely a matter of timing...the nervous system is quite "plastic" and can adapt quickly to changes in demands, whereas it takes time for significant hypertrophy to be produced. In that regard, it doesn't really matter whether you're talking lifting or sprinting, you'd expect a similar initial time course (see, e.g., the track powermeter presentation that is available in the downloads section at www.fixedgearfever.com for data showing the rapidity with which increases in maximal power can occur). Where the two are likely to differ is going to be beyond that point, as the forces generated while cycling are generally quite a bit lower than those generated during lifting, and absolute force seems to play a role in inducing hypertrophy. (IOW, it's going to be easier to grow big muscles by lifting weights than by pedaling, even if you do a lot of standing starts, etc.) For this reason, it makes perfect sense to include a significant amount of gym work in the program of a non-endurance track racer, just as it makes perfect sense for a road racer to never go near the place. In my mind, the real question is what to do about the points race/criterium specialist whose forte is sprinting, i.e., how much (if any) gym work should be part of their program? On that point, I would go with "it depends", e.g., on where they live (can they ride all winter?), what do they like to do, do they ride for a team that can provide a strong lead-out or are they going to have to freelance the sprints, etc.

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

EDIT: I have seen discussions on this form related to how quickly different systems detrain (FTP vs. Vo2max vs. AWC) - is there any information on NM power? Does it also detrain? And if so, how does it compare to the other systems?

To quote Szent-Gyorgi: "living systems are developed by activity and worn out by disuse." Other than that, I don't think it is possible to draw any strong conclusions about how various abilities respond to detraining.

acoggan said:

In my mind, the real question is what to do about the points race/criterium specialist whose forte is sprinting, i.e., how much (if any) gym work should be part of their program? On that point, I would go with "it depends", e.g., on where they live (can they ride all winter?), what do they like to do, do they ride for a team that can provide a strong lead-out or are they going to have to freelance the sprints, etc.

Now you're making my head hurt given my power profile (I generally have to fight it out alone but have enough of a sprint to use it in bunch finishes if that's what happens). I'm leaving this one to coach😉 but I'm not expecting to see a weight room any time soon!

My 5 sec MMP increased 90W and my 10 sec MMP is up 120W from last year to this year without specific sprint training or weights. Indeed last year I did quite a bit of sprint/standing start work (no gym though).

What I do know is the championship points races here are dominated by the best aerobic engines (as are the crits typically)....

Doc, Having spent a bit of time in the gym, I think the time , diet and effort required to induce any noticeable hypertrophy would leave little time to ride a bike. There are some mesomorphic freaks that grow fast and can play three sports, but they are rare........ I think when looking at what works for AIS vs. real world application of weight training for cyclists(even track sprinters) is a very large gulf. For example from reading the post from "Norseman" , it appears that the training for the sprinters is so specific to joint angles and speed , that they use film to produce the best results. This type of coaching is mostly reserved for hand picked elites, and the broad brush of "squats will help your sprint" or yeild larger muscles in the legs is advice I wouldnt dispense. If I were to head back to the gym to squat and deadlift my body weight would head back to the 215 lb range again. I am currently 187 and make gobs more power on the bike than I did at 200+lbs... From at watts per kg standpint I would need another 400 watts of 5 sec power to come out even. Ill keep doing my strength training on the bike.... My .02, not a fight🙂

Yes, it will in most cases. Depends if your one of those that gains relatively more strength and power from a increase in muscle mass. Not everybody is like that though. i.e, during a 4 year period of heavy lifting my mass increased from 67 to 76-77 kg but my deadlift went from 200 lbs to 500+ lbs and vertical jump from 20 inches to 30+ inches. If somebody feels like doing the math, they can calculate the peak power needed by a 67 kg person to jump 20 inches and that needed to jump 30 inches at 77 kg and find the % relative to bodyweight power increase. It's more than 1:1 (much more) my watts/kg was much higher after lifting than before.

-Bikeguy

Billsworld said:

Doc, Having spent a bit of time in the gym, I think the time , diet and effort required to induce any noticeable hypertrophy would leave little time to ride a bike.

Most non-lifters can put on 2-3 kg of lean mass in just 3 mo of lifting.

Billsworld said:

I think when looking at what works for AIS vs. real world application of weight training for cyclists(even track sprinters) is a very large gulf. For example from reading the post from "Norseman" , it appears that the training for the sprinters is so specific to joint angles and speed , that they use film to produce the best results. This type of coaching is mostly reserved for hand picked elites, and the broad brush of "squats will help your sprint" or yeild larger muscles in the legs is advice I wouldnt dispense.

It's not advice I dispense either - I'm just saying that weight lifting to induce hypertrophy is a logical application of what is known about the physiology of exercise and training.

Billsworld said:

If I were to head back to the gym to squat and deadlift my body weight would head back to the 215 lb range again. I am currently 187 and make gobs more power on the bike than I did at 200+lbs... From at watts per kg standpint I would need another 400 watts of 5 sec power to come out even. Ill keep doing my strength training on the bike.... My .02, not a fight🙂

The key word here would seem to be "...head back to the gym...". Or to put it another way: would you feel the same way if you'd never been involved in lifting and had never gotten up to 215 lbs in the first place?

acoggan said:

Most non-lifters can put on 2-3 kg of lean mass in just 3 mo of lifting.

It's not advice I dispense either - I'm just saying that weight lifting to induce hypertrophy is a logical application of what is known about the physiology of exercise and training.

The key word here would seem to be "...head back to the gym...". Or to put it another way: would you feel the same way if you'd never been involved in lifting and had never gotten up to 215 lbs in the first place?

Its not that my anecdotal evidence can be considered science or a study, but my instincts tell me that unless you have age on your side , the right parents, eat perfectly and are being coached; weightlifting as a means to improve cycling is a crapshoot. General resistance training to improve overall health is good. Training for hypertrophy?? Tough to juggle both. In the past we have been in agreement on specificty and cycling . I , and it seems that a few others are just confused at your mixed message on weight training. I wasnt taking a shot at you. Ok not a big shot

Billsworld said:

Training for hypertrophy?? Tough to juggle both.

...which could be why, e.g., the Aussies spend 6 mo emphasizing the gym, then 6 mo emphasizing the track.

Billsworld said:

In the past we have been in agreement on specificty and cycling . I , and it seems that a few others are just confused at your mixed message on weight training. I wasnt taking a shot at you. Ok not a big shot

I don't see it as a mixed message at all: to the extent that lifting produces hypertrophy (and increases synchronicity of motor unit firing), it will tend to increase neuromuscular power. Ergo, if neuromuscular power is the name of the game, your performance is likely to be enhanced by lifting that results in hypertrophy. That conclusions applies, however, only to a very limited number of cyclists in the world, i.e., those that specialize in non-endurance track events. From a performance perspective and for everybody else, lifting is at best a potentially useful supplement (e.g., for the points racer who counts on winning intermediate sprints, not taking a lap, and could theoretically benefit for the same reason that a true sprinter might), and at worst a potentially detrimental distraction (e.g., for the climber who needs to be as light as possible).

acoggan said:

...which could be why, e.g., the Aussies spend 6 mo emphasizing the gym, then 6 mo emphasizing the track.

I don't see it as a mixed message at all: to the extent that lifting produces hypertrophy (and increases synchronicity of motor unit firing), it will tend to increase neuromuscular power. Ergo, if neuromuscular power is the name of the game, your performance is likely to be enhanced by lifting that results in hypertrophy. That conclusions applies, however, only to a very limited number of cyclists in the world, i.e., those that specialize in non-endurance track events. From a performance perspective and for everybody else, lifting is at best a potentially useful supplement (e.g., for the points racer who counts on winning intermediate sprints, not taking a lap, and could theoretically benefit for the same reason that a true sprinter might), and at worst a potentially detrimental distraction (e.g., for the climber who needs to be as light as possible).

OH...I am getting it. I think we agree