Will Landis beat the rap??

He was done when they announced it. Landis hasn't had a chance from day one. I just hope this spurs the ADA's and WADA and to clean up their acts.

You know if the tests had been done by the UCLA lab that USADA uses, then Landis' CIR test would have considered negative, and the test/epitest results would probably have been tossed after the b test results.

If the test/epitest results from repeated testing change from test to test by more than 20% for TEst and 30% for epitest (or something thereabouts) then they are considered contaminated and not reliable. The repeat tests varied by as much as 258% at LNDD.

The ucla lab does several orders of magnitude more testing than LNDD, and has actually performed their own controlled testing OF the CIR test. By the standards that LNDD has considered Floyd positive, some of the Non-Testosterone Control Group from UCLA would have been positive too, and these people were absolutely known not to be taking testosterone!

Problem here is that not only do we not know who is taking drugs in the peloton, we also do not have a clear, established, transparent, uniform testing procedure that the populace and the riders can believe in.

What a frickin mess.

Whit

WhitWyatt said:

You know if the tests had been done by the UCLA lab that USADA uses, then Landis' CIR test would have considered negative, and the test/epitest results would probably have been tossed after the b test results.

If the test/epitest results from repeated testing change from test to test by more than 20% for TEst and 30% for epitest (or something thereabouts) then they are considered contaminated and not reliable. The repeat tests varied by as much as 258% at LNDD.

The ucla lab does several orders of magnitude more testing than LNDD, and has actually performed their own controlled testing OF the CIR test. By the standards that LNDD has considered Floyd positive, some of the Non-Testosterone Control Group from UCLA would have been positive too, and these people were absolutely known not to be taking testosterone!

Whit

This is why I say they need to get their house in order. This was being discussed by Poulidor, myself and another person or two in the "Greg's Evidence" before Lim shut it down(because I posted showing that he was not responding to the actual discussion and we know Lim can't admit being wrong). I think Landis is guilty, but the system needs to be fixed or we will go through stuff like this every year.

It's going to be interesting to see how this turns out. I still think FL was as juiced as the rest of them, so the hearing is now just an interesting courtroom drama. It has little to do with truth at this point, just who marshalled their facts better.

I just read the blog on the Davis testimony. He gave LNDD a pretty good drubbing. Magnets stored on top of the GCMS (don't you love cycling - you learn such interesting facts that have nothing to do with riding), incorrect pressure in the vacuum chamber, possible CO2 contamination... and this is a USADA guy. They're painting a picture of sloppy work, sort of matches up with Mongongu's testimony that she had trouble with calibration, but didn't think it was worth writing up (minor WADA violation). What the hell, it's only the TDF winner's samples you're testing, not like it's someone important.

Meier-Augenstein was rather entertaining. Feisty fellow, and he pointed out that LNDD's peak assessment wasn't done according to WADA specs. That might get the Landaluze escape, by itself. If they did gloss over a critical function, the burden of proof shifts. USADA has to prove that it didn't affect the outcome. If what the mercurial doctor said is true, their omission probably did affect the test results.

Doesn't matter how it comes out, no one wins. FL gets off, no one will ever believe him. The peloton might welcome him back (Got business cards for your attornies?) but the fans will be repulsed. Sure has a nasty side, doesn't he?

All the same, LNDD does not look very good, when given some serious scrutiny.

JohnO said:

Doesn't matter how it comes out, no one wins. FL gets off, no one will ever believe him. The peloton might welcome him back (Got business cards for your attornies?) but the fans will be repulsed. Sure has a nasty side, doesn't he?

you got to be kidding, if he gets off, he'll be revered in the US as the pro-rider that stuck it to the French , and make big bucks on the internal sponsor market.

Now, LA might get jealous of Flandis' new fame, and let his dark side through. Can you just imagine the fun between LA's legal suits and smearing campaigns to Flandis' or spin via powerpoint and late night 'prank' calls? wow

House said:

This is why I say they need to get their house in order. This was being discussed by Poulidor, myself and another person or two in the "Greg's Evidence" before Lim shut it down(because I posted showing that he was not responding to the actual discussion and we know Lim can't admit being wrong). I think Landis is guilty, but the system needs to be fixed or we will go through stuff like this every year.

That thread was in DIRE need of having a stake driven through its heart, given that the original topic had been disposed of, and the last three pages had degenerated into a pissing match.

JohnO said:

It's going to be interesting to see how this turns out. I still think FL was as juiced as the rest of them, so the hearing is now just an interesting courtroom drama. It has little to do with truth at this point, just who marshalled their facts better.

I just read the blog on the Davis testimony. He gave LNDD a pretty good drubbing. Magnets stored on top of the GCMS (don't you love cycling - you learn such interesting facts that have nothing to do with riding), incorrect pressure in the vacuum chamber, possible CO2 contamination... and this is a USADA guy. They're painting a picture of sloppy work, sort of matches up with Mongongu's testimony that she had trouble with calibration, but didn't think it was worth writing up (minor WADA violation). What the hell, it's only the TDF winner's samples you're testing, not like it's someone important.

Meier-Augenstein was rather entertaining. Feisty fellow, and he pointed out that LNDD's peak assessment wasn't done according to WADA specs. That might get the Landaluze escape, by itself. If they did gloss over a critical function, the burden of proof shifts. USADA has to prove that it didn't affect the outcome. If what the mercurial doctor said is true, their omission probably did affect the test results.

Doesn't matter how it comes out, no one wins. FL gets off, no one will ever believe him. The peloton might welcome him back (Got business cards for your attornies?) but the fans will be repulsed. Sure has a nasty side, doesn't he?

All the same, LNDD does not look very good, when given some serious scrutiny.

+1

I started out last year thinking that Landis would prevail. When his B samples were tested I thought that would sink him. With today's testimony it looks like he may get off completely unless the USADA can score some big points on cross.

But as you say, Landis looks bad. Aside from the stupidity with Lemond, he looks like an ass as he sits and smirks through the hearing.

I have not quite assimilated how I feel about everything. I was a big fan of Landis and was hoping to see him race again, but he has not come across too well in this fiasco.

kennf said:

That thread was in DIRE need of having a stake driven through its heart, given that the original topic had been disposed of, and the last three pages had degenerated into a pissing match.

Actually Poulidor and I were having anice discussion until the usual suspects showed up. Lim only closed it because I kept posting proof that he was avoiding the topic that was being discussed (a post that specifically said I was talking about more then just Landis) and commenting on his action against me for cursing while allowing others to say or post anything. Lim absolute hates being wrong...to the point that he abuses his position to maintain his facade. He is a fraud.

House said:

Actually Poulidor and I were having anice discussion until the usual suspects showed up. Lim only closed it because I kept posting proof that he was avoiding the topic that was being discussed (a post that specifically said I was talking about more then just Landis) and commenting on his action against me for cursing while allowing others to say or post anything. Lim absolute hates being wrong...to the point that he abuses his position to maintain his facade. He is a fraud.

SHUT UP !!

House said:

This was being discussed by Poulidor, myself and another person or two in the "Greg's Evidence" before Lim shut it down(because I posted showing that he was not responding to the actual discussion and we know Lim can't admit being wrong).

It was shut down because you are childish. Refusing to answer questions while harping endlessly about posters who won't answer your questions is boring. Grow up. Make your point and then move on. If someone wants to rebut then respond to their rebuttal. Insulting the moderator every other post won't get you very far.

Bro Deal said:

It was shut down because you are childish. Refusing to answer questions while harping endlessly about posters who won't answer your questions is boring. Grow up. Make your point and then move on. If someone wants to rebut then respond to their rebuttal. Insulting the moderator every other post won't get you very far.

You see how good Lim is, he has you fooled. Ask him about the posts he deleted, the ones that violated no rules. The ones that asked him to show me the questions I missed and that provided the post showing him the discussion was not about just Landis anymore, the post that questioned his deleting my post because of swearing while allowing others to swear, make rude comments and post rude pictures. Did you see those? No because he deleted them because they make him look bad. I guess these are more facts you will choose to ignore....as usual.

By the way Bro Deal, looking through that thread I don't see one question I did not answer. So I guess we see how much he has you fooled, you actually believed him that I did not answer questions in that thread. Care to rebuke or would you like to be a man, admit your mistake and apologize like I did to Leafer?

House said:

By the way Bro Deal, looking through that thread...blah...blah...blah

This thread is supposed to be about whether Landis will be found not guilty, not about your tiff with Lim. Again, grow up. People can read your posts and draw their own conclusions.

As Bro Deal pointed out in the title of this thread this is not a guilty/not guilty thread it is a will he be convicted.

I hope not. I think his team has demonstrated LNDD did not prove much of anything except their own sloppiness. Sadly I think he will be convicted because so much $$ is at stake in the anti-doping world.

No matter what the outcome of this trial, that particular lab needs to be closed down. The testers did not even know how to load the software that did the testing. Trials such as this exposes more then what the trial is about. We know the athletes are dirty, but I am convinced certain people in the anti-doping organizations are not looking for truth.
So far the only people that are testifying for the labs trustablity is people that have a financial stake in the outcome leaning to the conviction.
And if the lab is defective and poorly staffed, then a career cannot be destroyed because of it.
There is a lot at stake here...... Of course the obvious is just where on the "laughing stock o'meter" the TDF is going to end up.
It looks as if T-Mobile is pulling out completely, CSC is probably not far behind. Discovery has not found a sponsor, and in Spain, it looks as if business is going on as usual.

We know the athletes will always cheat. So the labs need to have 100% reliability. We have to be able to count on them. They don't have that trust now.

At the start of the hearing, I thought he was a goner. After the last three days, he just might get off. LNDD looks very sloppy, and they just got raked by a scientist that works for USADA. If USADA convicts, then CAS may reverse on the rules violations alone.

Was he actually guilty? My gut feel right now is that he's like Hamilton - he was doing something, but not what he was accused of. Given the volume of Fuentes customers, it's hard to think that anyone could stay with them and remain clean. Riis, Ullrich... I suppose that includes Armstrong, as well. And Indurain.

All the same, the labs need to be cleaned up as well as the riders. This is, after all, the first time that well financed adversarial scrutiny has been given to anti doping lab work. When you start taking down guys with million dollar/euro salaries, they will put up a fight. The next major doping accusation will have much better lab work.

My hope is that when the major sports start getting into doping scandals, and they probably will, cycling will be remembered as the first to clean itself up. Perhaps out of the ashes of the last sixteen years, a little honor may be restored.

nosduh said:

As Bro Deal pointed out in the title of this thread this is not a guilty/not guilty thread it is a will he be convicted.

I hope not. I think his team has demonstrated LNDD did not prove much of anything except their own sloppiness. Sadly I think he will be convicted because so much $$ is at stake in the anti-doping world.

nosduh said:

I hope not. I think his team has demonstrated LNDD did not prove much of anything except their own sloppiness. Sadly I think he will be convicted because so much $$ is at stake in the anti-doping world.

Maybe. The UCI/WADA/USADA has done something similar with Hamilton. Yeah, Hamilton was guilty as hell, but it looks suspicious when his arguments about the possible flaws with the testing are denied and UCI has not used the homologuous blood test since.

Landis also looks guilty as hell, but the USADA and lab have stepped on their own units.

I now question whether Landis will be able to race again. It seems like when the UCI targets a rider, like Hamilton, Heras, Rumsas, or the Phonak team members, they get their man. Maybe racing again would be like Landis sticking his head in the jaws of a lion.

wolfix said:

The testers did not even know how to load the software that did the testing.

That part of the testimony was not credible. They have been using the software before Landis' B sample testing. What were they doing before Landis' observer showed up?

Quoted post said:

That part of the testimony was not credible

It will be credible if in the cross examination it is not dealt with. If the Landis side is lying about it, then it is not credible. However if it is the truth, then why should we believe the testers knew what they were doing with the other functions of the machine?
It simply shows sloppiness on the lab. If I understood it correctly, Landis team had to show them how to load the software.
In a case of this importance, I would think all the procedures would be fully understood by the technicians.
Too much at stake for the entire sport. Cycling is falling apart in Europe [ Germany} as we post. The sport needs a decisive answer to "if Landis did dope." Assumptions and associations is not enough in this situation. It makes great time killing on the forum, but it is destroying cycling.