Wiggins criticizes Brunyeel

samson said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07

As many others are beginning to say, the Olympic champion also feels
that a disproportionate amount of the pressure is put on riders to be
whiter than white, while teams and their managers don't have the same
concerns. He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: "I
think the team managers have to take responsibility for this as well
because they're willing to pay these guys who are under suspicion and
have been involved in previous years in doping scandals. Ivan Basso,
last year got thrown off the Tour is disgrace - [Discovery Channel's
Johan] Brunyeel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.

"The hypocrisy in that is unbelievable," Wiggins stated. "These guys are
running some of the biggest professional cycling teams in the sport.
What's their motivation within the sport if they are willing to sign
someone who they knew was under investigation of who had been thrown out
of the Tour the previous year. Not every team manager thinks that way
but it seems that there is a minority out there who aren't willing to
play by the rules - including the team managers."

Yep, good idea. Everyone who has even been rumored to have ever, even
known someone who has doped, or been on a team where someone doped
should be unemployable. That means we need a couple hundred new pros,
of course they can't come from any teams with links to pro teams who
have ever been linked to doping, or from teams who have ever had a
rider who was caught doping as a pro, or anyone under suspicion of
doping as an amateur.
Bill C

Bill C said:

samson said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07

Quoted message said:

As many others are beginning to say, the Olympic champion also feels
that a disproportionate amount of the pressure is put on riders to be
whiter than white, while teams and their managers don't have the same
concerns. He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: "I
think the team managers have to take responsibility for this as well
because they're willing to pay these guys who are under suspicion and
have been involved in previous years in doping scandals. Ivan Basso,
last year got thrown off the Tour is disgrace - [Discovery Channel's
Johan] Brunyeel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.

Quoted message said:

"The hypocrisy in that is unbelievable," Wiggins stated. "These guys are
running some of the biggest professional cycling teams in the sport.
What's their motivation within the sport if they are willing to sign
someone who they knew was under investigation of who had been thrown out
of the Tour the previous year. Not every team manager thinks that way
but it seems that there is a minority out there who aren't willing to
play by the rules - including the team managers."

Yep, good idea. Everyone who has even been rumored to have ever, even
known someone who has doped, or been on a team where someone doped
should be unemployable. That means we need a couple hundred new pros,
of course they can't come from any teams with links to pro teams who
have ever been linked to doping, or from teams who have ever had a
rider who was caught doping as a pro, or anyone under suspicion of
doping as an amateur.
Bill C- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sinkewitz fired after confession

Face it Bill, Smoke equals fire.

You cannot defend this sport they have let you down

Quoted message said:

Sinkewitz fired after confession

Face it Bill, Smoke equals fire.

You cannot defend this sport they have let you down

Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody will hire you, as word gets around.

Nice.

Basso has been cleared by the Italian federation. You can't black-list people on smoke.

Dan

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

On Jul 31, 11:50 am, samson <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As many others are beginning to say, the Olympic champion also feels
that a disproportionate amount of the pressure is put on riders to be
whiter than white, while teams and their managers don't have the same
concerns. He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: "I
think the team managers have to take responsibility for this as well
because they're willing to pay these guys who are under suspicion and
have been involved in previous years in doping scandals. Ivan Basso,
last year got thrown off the Tour is disgrace - [Discovery Channel's
Johan] Brunyeel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"The hypocrisy in that is unbelievable," Wiggins stated. "These guys are
running some of the biggest professional cycling teams in the sport.
What's their motivation within the sport if they are willing to sign
someone who they knew was under investigation of who had been thrown out
of the Tour the previous year. Not every team manager thinks that way
but it seems that there is a minority out there who aren't willing to
play by the rules - including the team managers."

Quoted message said:

Yep, good idea. Everyone who has even been rumored to have ever, even
known someone who has doped, or been on a team where someone doped
should be unemployable. That means we need a couple hundred new pros,
of course they can't come from any teams with links to pro teams who
have ever been linked to doping, or from teams who have ever had a
rider who was caught doping as a pro, or anyone under suspicion of
doping as an amateur.
Bill C- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Sinkewitz fired after confession

Face it Bill, Smoke equals fire.

You cannot defend this sport they have let you down- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep there are lots of people doping. Let's find them and deal with
them in an open, honest, verifiable system of due process. If that was
done then I would have very little problem with a lifetime ban for a
2nd offense.
One of the problems with this is that the most sophisticated of the
dopers will aways be ahead of the testing, and the richest teams and
riders will be able to spend for those new methods.
The rich get richer, we still have no guarantee anything is clean and
fair, and riders not attached to the big program teams fell they need
to dope to compete, but get busted because theyu don't have the
resources.
That works for you all?
Name me a sport that's cleaner, or gone after dopers harder? Then
prove it.
Bill C

samson said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07

He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: [...]
Bruyneel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.

Hmmm. I don't see anywhere in that article where Wiggins criticized
Moreni or Eric Boyer.

Dan Connelly d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sinkewitz fired after confession

Face it Bill, Smoke equals fire.

You cannot defend this sport they have let you down

Quoted message said:

Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody will hire you, as word gets around.

Quoted message said:

Nice.

Quoted message said:

Basso has been cleared by the Italian federation. You can't black-list people on smoke.

Really, then why has he recived a 24 month quarentene? And why didn't
he appeal it?

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

Quoted message said:

samson said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07

He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: [...]
Bruyneel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.

Quoted message said:

Hmmm. I don't see anywhere in that article where Wiggins criticized
Moreni or Eric Boyer.

Perhaps they didn't offor Basso, Paulinio, Contador and Davis a
contract afterer OP.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

Quoted message said:

samson said:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: [...]
Bruyneel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.

Hmmm. I don't see anywhere in that article where Wiggins criticized
Moreni or Eric Boyer.

Perhaps they didn't offor Basso, Paulinio, Contador and Davis a
contract afterer OP.

Ah. That's right: it's not actual doping that's bad. It's hiring
suspicious guys. And the reason Wiggins didn't finish the Tour wasn't
because Moreni doped and got caught: it was because Bruyneel hired
Basso.

On Jul 31, 1:41 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody will hire you, as word gets around.

Nice.

Basso has been cleared by the Italian federation. You can't black-list people on smoke.

While I'm not in the smoke=fire camp, your example bolsters that
position since Basso confessed to attempted doping in connection to
Operation Puerto. I suppose one could argue that attempted doping is
only smoke, but no fire, the intent to commit arson was clearly there.

Quoted message said:

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

Quoted message said:

On Jul 31, 5:50 pm, samson <[email hidden]> wrote:
>http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
> id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07

Quoted message said:

> He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: [...]
> Bruyneel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.
Hmmm. I don't see anywhere in that article where Wiggins criticized
Moreni or Eric Boyer.

Perhaps they didn't offor Basso, Paulinio, Contador and Davis a
contract afterer OP.

Ah. That's right: it's not actual doping that's bad. It's hiring
suspicious guys. And the reason Wiggins didn't finish the Tour wasn't
because Moreni doped and got caught: it was because Bruyneel hired
Basso.

Have *you* ever tried training hard when you are filled with shame for your
sport?

--
Bill Asher

William Asher said:

Have *you* ever tried training hard when you are filled with shame for your
sport?

Dude,

I post to rbr. How low could my shame threshold be?

Quoted message said:

William Asher said:

Have *you* ever tried training hard when you are filled with shame
for your sport?

Dude,

I post to rbr. How low could my shame threshold be?

But see, you're not off the back, so to speak, so the training hard and
expending effort while feeling shame isn't the same for you as it is for
Wiggins. Wiggins gets up in the morning, tries to go for a ride, and says
"screw it, some damned doper is going to win anyway" so he goes back in and
rubs some of that special cream the team sent him on his aching legs and
feels better.

Have you updated your Iraq casualties chart lately? Something interesting
is going on in that the U.S. casualty rate over the past month has
decreased but the British rate is still elevated, and that with the British
essentially confined to their base in Basra. That suggests that the
insurgency has been suppressed in the north by the surge but is very latent
and will pop up again as bad as before once troop levels decrease.

--
Bill Asher

Quoted message said:

Yep there are lots of people doping. Let's find them and deal with
them in an open, honest, verifiable system of due process. If that was
done then I would have very little problem with a lifetime ban for a
2nd offense.
One of the problems with this is that the most sophisticated of the
dopers will aways be ahead of the testing, and the richest teams and
riders will be able to spend for those new methods.
The rich get richer, we still have no guarantee anything is clean and
fair, and riders not attached to the big program teams fell they need
to dope to compete, but get busted because theyu don't have the
resources.
That works for you all?
Name me a sport that's cleaner, or gone after dopers harder? Then
prove it.
Bill C

Ironically, the best way (in my opinion) to expose and deal with the issue
of doping is to make the penalties for first-time offense and/or confession
*less* severe, and then go for the guilotine on the second offense. The
worst thing about the silly paperwork the riders had to sign was that it
dramatically intensified the desire to hide and not admit the problem
exists.

But I do agree with Wiggins that Bruyneel was guilty of something, just not
sure exactly what, when he hired Basso. I'd feel differently about it if
Bruyneel had stood on a soapbox and proclaimed everything that was wrong
about the current situation and why he felt teams should abandon the code of
ethics and create something workable. But to pretend that what he was doing
(by hiring Basso) was within the established framework was a bit of a
stretch.

Of course, if the risk to a team (in hiring someone who might be dirty) was
made severe enough, it shouldn't be a problem.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Bill C" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bill C said:

On Jul 31, 11:50 am, samson <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

>http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
> id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07

Quoted message said:

> As many others are beginning to say, the Olympic champion also feels
> that a disproportionate amount of the pressure is put on riders to be
> whiter than white, while teams and their managers don't have the same
> concerns. He singles out one particular team for specific criticism:
> "I
> think the team managers have to take responsibility for this as well
> because they're willing to pay these guys who are under suspicion and
> have been involved in previous years in doping scandals. Ivan Basso,
> last year got thrown off the Tour is disgrace - [Discovery Channel's
> Johan] Brunyeel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro
> contract.

Quoted message said:

> "The hypocrisy in that is unbelievable," Wiggins stated. "These guys
> are
> running some of the biggest professional cycling teams in the sport.
> What's their motivation within the sport if they are willing to sign
> someone who they knew was under investigation of who had been thrown
> out
> of the Tour the previous year. Not every team manager thinks that way
> but it seems that there is a minority out there who aren't willing to
> play by the rules - including the team managers."

Quoted message said:

Yep, good idea. Everyone who has even been rumored to have ever, even
known someone who has doped, or been on a team where someone doped
should be unemployable. That means we need a couple hundred new pros,
of course they can't come from any teams with links to pro teams who
have ever been linked to doping, or from teams who have ever had a
rider who was caught doping as a pro, or anyone under suspicion of
doping as an amateur.
Bill C- Hide quoted text -

Quoted message said:

- Show quoted text -

Sinkewitz fired after confession

Face it Bill, Smoke equals fire.

You cannot defend this sport they have let you down- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep there are lots of people doping. Let's find them and deal with
them in an open, honest, verifiable system of due process. If that was
done then I would have very little problem with a lifetime ban for a
2nd offense.
One of the problems with this is that the most sophisticated of the
dopers will aways be ahead of the testing, and the richest teams and
riders will be able to spend for those new methods.
The rich get richer, we still have no guarantee anything is clean and
fair, and riders not attached to the big program teams fell they need
to dope to compete, but get busted because theyu don't have the
resources.
That works for you all?
Name me a sport that's cleaner, or gone after dopers harder? Then
prove it.
Bill C

Quoted message said:

Have *you* ever tried training hard when you are filled with shame for
your
sport?

Is that a serious issue? Are you actually filled with shame for your sport,
or some of the people in it? I don't see any evidence that cycling is much
different from anything else in life. Are you ashamed for the place you work
because white-collar crime is rampant in high places in corporate life? I'm
not saying you shouldn't be, but just wondering why you are singling out
cycling.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"William Asher" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Morten Reippuert Knudsen said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> On Jul 31, 5:50 pm, samson <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?
> > id=/riders/2007/interviews/tour_wiggins_post07

> > He singles out one particular team for specific criticism: [...]
> > Bruyneel this year goes and signs him on a million Euro contract.
> Hmmm. I don't see anywhere in that article where Wiggins criticized
> Moreni or Eric Boyer.

Perhaps they didn't offor Basso, Paulinio, Contador and Davis a
contract afterer OP.

Ah. That's right: it's not actual doping that's bad. It's hiring
suspicious guys. And the reason Wiggins didn't finish the Tour wasn't
because Moreni doped and got caught: it was because Bruyneel hired
Basso.

Have *you* ever tried training hard when you are filled with shame for
your
sport?

--
Bill Asher

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ironically, the best way (in my opinion) to expose and deal with the issue
of doping is to make the penalties for first-time offense and/or
confession *less* severe, and then go for the guilotine on the second
offense. The worst thing about the silly paperwork the riders had to sign
was that it dramatically intensified the desire to hide and not admit the
problem exists.

That doesn't address the issue that riders (and probably team managements
too) don't believe they are going to get caught, which fosters the problem
of "if he's gonna dope, I gotta dope too to keep the status quo".

William Asher said:

Have you updated your Iraq casualties chart lately? Something interesting
is going on in that the U.S. casualty rate over the past month has
decreased but the British rate is still elevated, and that with the British
essentially confined to their base in Basra.

Dumbass -

It's because there has been an informal truce reached with the Sunnis
(basically the Baathists) who are turning their guns vs. Al Qaeda.

After they get done with AQ, then they'll turn them back on us.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Victor Kan said:

On Jul 31, 1:41 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

Great: so imagine you get called into your boss's office, and he says someone reported seeing your Trek parked on a wheelchair ramp. He fires you, ignoring your claims of innocence. You search for jobs, but nobody will hire you, as word gets around.

Nice.

Basso has been cleared by the Italian federation. You can't black-list people on smoke.

While I'm not in the smoke=fire camp, your example bolsters that
position since Basso confessed to attempted doping in connection to
Operation Puerto. I suppose one could argue that attempted doping is
only smoke, but no fire, the intent to commit arson was clearly there.

The confession was after he left Discovery, of course, not before he was hired. It's not what he had done, it's what he had been reasonably proven to have done.

Dan

Kurgan Gringioni said:

William Asher said:

Have you updated your Iraq casualties chart lately? Something interesting
is going on in that the U.S. casualty rate over the past month has
decreased but the British rate is still elevated, and that with the British
essentially confined to their base in Basra.

Dumbass -

It's because there has been an informal truce reached with the Sunnis
(basically the Baathists) who are turning their guns vs. Al Qaeda.

After they get done with AQ, then they'll turn them back on us.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

I would suggest that you limit your comments to things you know
something about, but that would pretty much bring your contributions
to a halt.

Fred

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The confession was after he left Discovery, of course, not before he was
hired. It's not what he had done, it's what he had been reasonably proven
to have done.

The lynch mob mentality thrives among people who couldn't even ride on the
same road with any of the Pros if they were driving motorbikes.