Why winter train so much?

jsirabella said:

I know exactly where you are coming from...I just love training. Sitting on the bike or playing with the weights and not feeling I pushed myself seems like a waste of time. This week has been a pain in the a$$ for me as I am finally listening to all the periodization talk and taking off a couple weeks and been putting in more hours at lower watts...2 hours at 160 both days this weekend....boring!

Probably the reason I do not improve so lets see how this works out...love experimenting so lets have fun. Play with the diet and the weight lifting also.

-js

I landed in an unplanned periodization. 🙁
For the last couple of weeks I have had to work longer hours to make up for a deadline that a coworker missed. I missed two nights last week and the two nights that I could get on the trainer I had little left that day and was only able to muster up lower L3 efforts.

For me I have to replace your word "boring" and use "frustrating" for my situation.

All of my weight training sessions went well last week since I do a double split and train with weights at 5 AM before going in to work, but the bike training in the evening has dropped.

My next planned break is the week of Christmas.

Felt_Rider said:

All of my weight training sessions went well last week since I do a double split and train with weights at 5 AM before going in to work, but the bike training in the evening has dropped.

That double split is going to be a tough road! I wish you luck as I tried it a bit the first year. Listen to your body for sure with that much punishment.

-js

jsirabella said:

You kept an average HR for that many hours a week during the winter when training?

Wow, I can only see that type of HR once in a while...I do not know why but my HR can only go that high during VO2...my L4 intervals I do not think go that high. Probably not a good thing...

-js

I couldn't do that now but that was 14 years ago. Back then I'd do 50's at 180 to 185, depending on the weather. 25 mile TT's were ~190 and 10's were 190 to 195... It wasn't unusual for me to see over 205bpm at the end of a short race or hillclimb

velomanct said:

Maybe it's because I'm young (23) and relatively "seasoned", that I can hop on the bike in the spring after little winter riding, and in less than a month be able to mix it up with the big boys (1/2s) haha....please don't take that as bragging. I'm decent but not great in the local scene.

I haven't put my mind to serious road training since 05 actually (haven't really raced since either). Maybe one of these days I'll get around to seeing what I got.

At 23 and started racing very young, you may very well be one of those unusual athletes that has youth and talent to such a degree that the usual rules and protocols don't really apply. After 35, it becomes a bit harder to get back into shape after an extensive periord of detraining. Given the state of cycling in the US, a lot of us didn't even start riding seriously until 23.

I can tell you that at 42, I would rather stay in shape over the winter than endure that pain that occurs after an extended layoff. It's just harder to whip yourself into shape at that age. But I would agree that training too hard over the winter can cause an early Spring peak and then fatigue by mid summer. I'm pretty sure that most riders are proponents of some sensible periodization program.

Since I have never felt my HR go much past 180, how does it feel when compared to 175?

The type of pain specifically.

-js

swampy1970 said:

I couldn't do that now but that was 14 years ago. Back then I'd do 50's at 180 to 185, depending on the weather. 25 mile TT's were ~190 and 10's were 190 to 195... It wasn't unusual for me to see over 205bpm at the end of a short race or hillclimb

jsirabella said:

Since I have never felt my HR go much past 180, how does it feel when compared to 175?

The type of pain specifically.

-js

I still get into the 200s as well, the highest about 215, but I don't really use HR much any more. As I get into those levels, I feel that sore feeling in my throat and really need to back way off. At 180, I can be cruising right along.

velomanct said:

As far as year to year improvement. I still don't think it's neccessary to put a lot of emphasis on winter training.

Somewhere out there is a study of collegiate swimmers, showing that only those who maintained a reasonably high level of fitness in the off-season progressed year-over-year...those who slacked off and returned to the team at the same level they were at in prior years did not. Unfortunately, however, I can't seem to locate the study at the moment...

acoggan said:

Somewhere out there is a study of collegiate swimmers, showing that only those who maintained a reasonably high level of fitness in the off-season progressed year-over-year...those who slacked off and returned to the team at the same level they were at in prior years did not. Unfortunately, however, I can't seem to locate the study at the moment...

Frankly, I think this is just common sense. I see a lot of people take time off in the winter, then proceed with LSD training (except for the "L" part). They ride at the same level every year, and amazingly they roll their eyes when I tell them about my off-season training. 🙄 Personally, I don't see how one can stay motivated without goals and a plan for improvement.

Velomanct, get yourself on a regimen of SST during the winter and work on that Cat. 1 upgrade.

For me the 160s is where I can pretty much cruise forever. Once I get into the mid 170s I will start to feel a bit of discomfort and as the ride continues it will get worse and worse. I also notice the heart rate will slowly rise over time and may settle in one zone every so often.

Maybe it has to do with the fact I have a heart murmur. I was diagnosed with it a long time ago as I got it from my mom. Not sure if it means anything for cycling though.

-js

kopride said:

I still get into the 200s as well, the highest about 215, but I don't really use HR much any more. As I get into those levels, I feel that sore feeling in my throat and really need to back way off. At 180, I can be cruising right along.

jsirabella said:

For me the 160s is where I can pretty much cruise forever. Once I get into the mid 170s I will start to feel a bit of discomfort and as the ride continues it will get worse and worse. I also notice the heart rate will slowly rise over time and may settle in one zone every so often.

Maybe it has to do with the fact I have a heart murmur. I was diagnosed with it a long time ago as I hot it from my mom. Not sure if it means anything for cycling though.

-js

Now, and I always considered I was a guy who has high HR.... If I'd go and try to ride with mid 160's I'd struggle after max 90 min. My LT HR is 167, therefore....just thinking about above 170.... If I do L5's I end up with a max of 172-174 and I do 5min's. My max HR I've seen this year is 178!
But, as always said, the HR says nothing as a number only as a relative to the max HR it might play a role. But as most of us have PM HR is only academic, isn't it?

Cheers, bigwillie013

I agree with so many points made here:

1. For some of us, riding and training is fun, therapeutic and part of who we are, even if it takes place on a trainer. I've often said that I know that I'm lucky because I look forward to a 2-3 hour ride (and I REALLY look forward to a 5 hour ride), while most people dread their 20 minute uphill walk on their treadmill. Obviously this applies somewhat less when talking about a trainer in winter, but...
2. Being Canadian I love the seasons (hockey and construction, winter and July, snow shovelling and mosquitoes, insert Canadian stereotype here). Cycling-wise, I try to race as much as a 42 yr old father can from April to September which sometimes means passing up a long ride on a beautiful summer day to race a day or two later. I actually like the fact that I can ride as much as I can in winter, even if it includes slushy commuting on a 35 lb. bike, countless indoor km, etc., all in the name of base-building.
3. As ACoggan and Kopride, among others, alluded to, racing fitness is a series of peaks and valleys but hopefully with an overall upward trend (you know, like the stock market🙂), and I do actually look forward to getting on my Computrainer come this time of year, and training with power again (no PT on my road or mountain bikes) in an effort to build a bigger and more powerful base than the year before (as measured by km, CTL, FTP, 20 min power, etc.).

jsirabella said:

For me the 160s is where I can pretty much cruise forever. Once I get into the mid 170s I will start to feel a bit of discomfort and as the ride continues it will get worse and worse. I also notice the heart rate will slowly rise over time and may settle in one zone every so often.

Maybe it has to do with the fact I have a heart murmur. I was diagnosed with it a long time ago as I got it from my mom. Not sure if it means anything for cycling though.

-js

I to have a heart murmur (born with it)... My LT HR is 180... and highest I have seen is 204 (and I was suffering). Now...same day....same hill...My buddy was to the right of me, suffering along side with a HR of 185. It's all completely individual....

I wonder if a murmur affects the way the heart rate monitor picks up the impulses/heart beats? Well...I haven't put the monitor on since riding with a PT anyway.

barrocycles said:

I to have a heart murmur (born with it)... My LT HR is 180... and highest I have seen is 204 (and I was suffering). Now...same day....same hill...My buddy was to the right of me, suffering along side with a HR of 185. It's all completely individual....

I wonder if a murmur affects the way the heart rate monitor picks up the impulses/heart beats? Well...I haven't put the monitor on since riding with a PT anyway.

I can't say what the effects of having a heart murmur are in regards to pain at elevated heart rates but you can be rest assured, should I go over 190bpm it aint no laughing matter. It's debatable whether being dunked in a vat of boiling acid is worse...

... well, maybe.

That reminds me - I should go get an H2S monitor...

Heart murmur doesn't affect the HR monitor, for it detects only electrical stimuli and not noises. I don't know in other countries, but in Italy "to do cycling" (amateur or elite) means to spend neraly 100€ in medical check-ups each year to obtain the needed certificates... often including ecocardiograpy if you have a heart murmur (70€). It's a lot of money... but often our teams pay for us 😎

Sikhandar said:

Heart murmur doesn't affect the HR monitor, for it detects only electrical stimuli and not noises.

I never had irregular data/readings while using a HR monitor, so personally I would conclude with your statement. I have routine physicals yearly and see the cardiologist every 4 years (which includes a stress echo). I have been given the OK every time.

But not to hijack the original post.....

In my personal experience, I find that starting around mid Nov/ Dec...putting in base miles (L2-L4) works for me. You'll find me tucked away in the basement on the cold Jan/Feb nights slugging out some SST. It works for me. I know guys/gals who do little untill 8 weeks to the start of the season and do very well. I think you'll find that there is no "cookie cutter" way to winter training and that it is completely individual.

velomanct said:

Maybe it's because I'm young (23) and relatively "seasoned", that I can hop on the bike in the spring after little winter riding, and in less than a month be able to mix it up with the big boys (1/2s) haha....

What's your definition of with "the big boys"? Bear Mountain, Bethel, Rentschler (spelling?) Field or just the local group ride?

You've also told us in other threads that you are 84 kg (6' 1"/185 cm) so as a Cat 2, I guess you might not have finished too highly at Housatonic, huh?

You've also made lots of comments in the past about sprinting and how we don't do our sprint training right. Whatever, dude. But Connecticut is a perfect place for an 80+ kg guy who gets by on natural talent and hiding in the pack as it is the land of the criterium.

Don't get me wrong, I like crits, but at your size, you're better suited for sitting in and getting sucked around that park in New Britain or Central Park than taking on Enyes Freyre in the hills of Danbury. If you've got some talent, you don't have to work as hard to sit in in a crit.

I know a guy who was on his nation's national MTB team as a junior (raced at MTB worlds), switched to the road, came to the US to go to university, ended up racing on a collegiate team and briefly on an elite amateur team here. He did not have to train very much nor very hard to do what he did. He could never understand why I was doing my 3-4x/week threshold workouts in the winter, why I took some weeks completely off at appropriate points to give my mind and body a break and why I never wanted to do a 180-ish km slugfest with him four days before the start of my goal stage race for the year. It never occurred to him because it never needed to occur to him. He is naturally talented and didn't have to work to hard at it and be more careful in his preparation.

Those of us that aren't naturally talented have to work at it.

Why train during the winter? Good question.

I can be moderately active in the winter and start trainning again in the spring and reach the same level as I did the previous year. Trainning in the winter gives that extra percent, the difference between 6th and 3rd, 30s quicker in a TT, ect... Really little gain for the time.

The big thing that trainning in the winter or year around give is progression. The extra percent that you gain in the winter, stays with you the next year. Over a couple of years those small gains add up to large ones.

kclw said:

Why train during the winter? Good question.

What else is there to do!!??[img]cyclingforums.comicon7.gifOpen ↗[/img]

Tony
www.flammerouge.je

Steve_B said:

What's your definition of with "the big boys"? Bear Mountain, Bethel, Rentschler (spelling?) Field or just the local group ride?

You've also told us in other threads that you are 84 kg (6' 1"/185 cm) so as a Cat 2, I guess you might not have finished too highly at Housatonic, huh?

You've also made lots of comments in the past about sprinting and how we don't do our sprint training right. Whatever, dude. But Connecticut is a perfect place for an 80+ kg guy who gets by on natural talent and hiding in the pack as it is the land of the criterium.

Don't get me wrong, I like crits, but at your size, you're better suited for sitting in and getting sucked around that park in New Britain or Central Park than taking on Enyes Freyre in the hills of Danbury. If you've got some talent, you don't have to work as hard to sit in in a crit.

I know a guy who was on his nation's national MTB team as a junior (raced at MTB worlds), switched to the road, came to the US to go to university, ended up racing on a collegiate team and briefly on an elite amateur team here. He did not have to train very much nor very hard to do what he did. He could never understand why I was doing my 3-4x/week threshold workouts in the winter, why I took some weeks completely off at appropriate points to give my mind and body a break and why I never wanted to do a 180-ish km slugfest with him four days before the start of my goal stage race for the year. It never occurred to him because it never needed to occur to him. He is naturally talented and didn't have to work to hard at it and be more careful in his preparation.

Those of us that aren't naturally talented have to work at it.

I don't really consider myself naturally talented. I was barely average as a junior racer. And I'm probably about average as an experienced 23 yr old. I still take days to recover from a hard race or training ride. That's not good talent.

Yes, I always sucked at Housatonic Hills RR, haha. Even got dropped in the 3s the last time I went there, 04 maybe. So yeah, crits are more my thing, or a non-hilly road race. (Bethel, New Britain, Hartford, and so on) So I guess my definition of 'big boys' is pertaining to non-hilly racing. Why are we talking about this though??? I feel as if I am defending myself because I'm being called out on bragging, when I clearly stated I am nothing special (although I am able to slack off in the winter, train smart in the spring, and hold my own alongside others who likely kill themselves all winter). There really should be no comparison between myself and others. It's just a comparison between myself from years ago, till more recent years. I still raced just as well, or even better during the season, when I took it easy over the winter.

Clearly, my point was missed. All I was trying to say is that torturing yourself on the indoor trainer and being miserable on 4hr rides through slush in January doesn't MAKE OR BREAK your season as a racer. Well, it shouldn't, at this amatuer level. I say this because I when I was a junior I thought it mattered. I thought I had to go through that hell in order to get good. I didn't.

But maybe most others are different? I just thought I'd bring up the IDEA, you guys decide for yourself, and PLEASE don't get so defensive because you feel like I am telling you how you must train.

Steve_B said:

What's your definition of with "the big boys"? Bear Mountain, Bethel, Rentschler (spelling?) Field or just the local group ride?

You've also told us in other threads that you are 84 kg (6' 1"/185 cm) so as a Cat 2, I guess you might not have finished too highly at Housatonic, huh?

You've also made lots of comments in the past about sprinting and how we don't do our sprint training right. Whatever, dude. But Connecticut is a perfect place for an 80+ kg guy who gets by on natural talent and hiding in the pack as it is the land of the criterium.

Don't get me wrong, I like crits, but at your size, you're better suited for sitting in and getting sucked around that park in New Britain or Central Park than taking on Enyes Freyre in the hills of Danbury. If you've got some talent, you don't have to work as hard to sit in in a crit.

I know a guy who was on his nation's national MTB team as a junior (raced at MTB worlds), switched to the road, came to the US to go to university, ended up racing on a collegiate team and briefly on an elite amateur team here. He did not have to train very much nor very hard to do what he did. He could never understand why I was doing my 3-4x/week threshold workouts in the winter, why I took some weeks completely off at appropriate points to give my mind and body a break and why I never wanted to do a 180-ish km slugfest with him four days before the start of my goal stage race for the year. It never occurred to him because it never needed to occur to him. He is naturally talented and didn't have to work to hard at it and be more careful in his preparation.

Those of us that aren't naturally talented have to work at it.

I thought crit racing was just something to keep the locals entertained on a Saturday afternoon...