Why so few stock Campagnolo bikes?

sfcommuter said:

People keep talking about a shortage of Shimano parts for new bikes
coming out, but I still don't understand why none of the big companies
(Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc.) don't carry at least one model that
has Campagnolo as an alternative. I'm not trying to start a Shimano
vs. Campagnolo debate (I have a mix of both on my bike and think they
both make fine components), but I have to wonder if the big bike
companies have special "exclusive" contracts or something with Shimano.
Offering one or two bikes with Campagnolo components would be a good
thing and way to distinguish themselves from the crowd of Shimano bikes
that are more or less the same bike with different paint jobs and
logos.

Anyone in the bike industry know why 98% of all stock bikes are
Shimano?

Dear Near-Silicon-Valley,

There may be an economic parallel to a certain industry in
which a roughly similar proportion of stock machines do not
come with Apple hardware.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

sfcommuter said:

People keep talking about a shortage of Shimano parts for new bikes
coming out, but I still don't understand why none of the big companies
(Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc.) don't carry at least one model that
has Campagnolo as an alternative. I'm not trying to start a Shimano
vs. Campagnolo debate (I have a mix of both on my bike and think they
both make fine components), but I have to wonder if the big bike
companies have special "exclusive" contracts or something with Shimano.
Offering one or two bikes with Campagnolo components would be a good
thing and way to distinguish themselves from the crowd of Shimano bikes
that are more or less the same bike with different paint jobs and
logos.

Anyone in the bike industry know why 98% of all stock bikes are
Shimano?

Dear Near-Silicon-Valley,

There may be an economic parallel to a certain industry in
which a roughly similar proportion of stock machines do not
come with Apple hardware.

Campy parts are about the same price as Shimano (at least for retail)
unlike with Apple kit 🙂

So I speculate that the lack of Campy equipped bikes might be related to
how easy - or not - Campagnolo are to do business with.

Any of our bike shop people know if this is the case?

Pete

Ningi said:

Quoted message said:

sfcommuter said:

People keep talking about a shortage of Shimano parts for new bikes
coming out, but I still don't understand why none of the big companies
(Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc.) don't carry at least one model that
has Campagnolo as an alternative. I'm not trying to start a Shimano
vs. Campagnolo debate (I have a mix of both on my bike and think they
both make fine components), but I have to wonder if the big bike
companies have special "exclusive" contracts or something with Shimano.
Offering one or two bikes with Campagnolo components would be a good
thing and way to distinguish themselves from the crowd of Shimano bikes
that are more or less the same bike with different paint jobs and
logos.

Anyone in the bike industry know why 98% of all stock bikes are
Shimano?

Dear Near-Silicon-Valley,

There may be an economic parallel to a certain industry in
which a roughly similar proportion of stock machines do not
come with Apple hardware.

Campy parts are about the same price as Shimano (at least for retail)
unlike with Apple kit 🙂

So I speculate that the lack of Campy equipped bikes might be related to
how easy - or not - Campagnolo are to do business with.

Any of our bike shop people know if this is the case?

Pete

Dear Pete,

I scarcely ever buy either brand, so I flipped open a
Nashbar mid-summer catalogue #194 to see what things cost.
The first thing that I saw was the road brakes section on
page 71.

The Shimano calipers run from $40 to $126.

The Campagnolo calipers run from $82 to $170.

There seems to be a considerable price difference.

Carl Fogel

[email hidden said:

"]On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:07:34 GMT, Ningi
<Dear Pete,

I scarcely ever buy either brand, so I flipped open a
Nashbar mid-summer catalogue #194 to see what things cost.
The first thing that I saw was the road brakes section on
page 71.

The Shimano calipers run from $40 to $126.

The Campagnolo calipers run from $82 to $170.

There seems to be a considerable price difference.

Carl Fogel

For another datapoint (from excelsports road groups):
Chorus=$1050 vs. Dura-Ace=$1059
Centaur=$669 vs. Ultegra=$559

That's assuming you believe those groups to be roughly equivalent (this is based on what I've read and that many consider Record to be in a class by itself above Dura-ace...but that's another thread).

Probably not a valid comparison to look at retail prices, though - I have no idea what the OEM prices for bike companies would be.

It seems like even if a Centaur-equipped bike was a few hundred dollars more than an Ultegra-equipped bike, I'm sure that there would be many looking at bikes in the $2k range willing to spend the extra $ because they prefer the Ergo shifters or just want something different than everyone else, but alas, your average person walking into a standard bike shop doesn't have the choice! It's all-Shimano or do a custom build (which of course is definitely going to be more expensive).

sfcommuter said:

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:07:34 GMT, Ningi
<Dear Pete,

I scarcely ever buy either brand, so I flipped open a
Nashbar mid-summer catalogue #194 to see what things cost.
The first thing that I saw was the road brakes section on
page 71.

The Shimano calipers run from $40 to $126.

The Campagnolo calipers run from $82 to $170.

There seems to be a considerable price difference.

Carl Fogel

For another datapoint (from excelsports road groups):
Chorus=$1050 vs. Dura-Ace=$1059
Centaur=$669 vs. Ultegra=$559

Here's a complete comparison of the upper end of both companies' range,
taken from the 2004 VeloNews buyers guide:

Record, Carbon/TI $3,410
Record, Aluminum $2,770
Chorus, Carbon $2,415
Dura-Ace $2,240
Chorus, Aluminum $1,970
Ultegra $1,180

Don't know about Centaur, except that it is Campag's third-tier product.

Dave

sfcommuter said:

Anyone in the bike industry know why 98% of all stock bikes are
Shimano?

IANA Bike Industry Guy, but consider this:

Campagnolo 2000 annual revenue: 88,000,000 Euro
(http://www.campagnolo.com/company.php).

Let's take that as a rough equivalent of dollars given the exchange rate
at the time. At current exchange rates that would work out to about
$105,000,000 or so, if you like.

Shimano 2003 annual revenue from bike components: $991,525,000
(http://tinyurl.com/4gqtt)

Strictly on a revenue basis, Shimano is about 100 times the size of
Campy. If you look at production (ie, how many brake calipers did each
company produce) the disparity is probably even greater. "Shortage" is a
relative term - even if shimano can't supply the xx,000 units you want,
that doesn't mean Campy could do any better.

Shimano offers more product lines at a broader range of price points and
has vastly greater production capacity than Campy. Shimano produces
parts in locations where a lot of bicycles are produced, or at least are
much closer to Taiwan than is Vicenza. In general, Shimano components
work well and cost less than their European counterparts. If I were a
bicycle product manager at a high-volume company such as Giant, Trek or
Specialized, all of those factors weigh pretty heavily in my decisions.
I'd probably have a Shimano rep's number on my speed dial. If I only had
to hang parts on a few hundred high-end frames a year, for customers
that had very high standards for both form and function, I'd probably
order Campy through a distributor.

I view Campagnolo as fairly similar in attitude to their automotive
compatriots at Ferrari. Ferrari isn't interested in putting a cavallino
in every garage. They're interested in winning races and building road
cars that incorporate racing technology and have tremendous sex appeal.
So what if they cost six figures and we only sell several hundred every
year? They're "the best" and there's always a market for that. Campy
occupies that same niche in the bicycle world.

JLS
--
James "Easily distracted by shiny objects" Scott
www.jls.cx

James Scott said:

Strictly on a revenue basis, Shimano is about 100 times

That should be ten times, of course.

--
James "no excuses" Scott
www.jls.cx

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:19:54 -0600, carlfogel wrote:
Snips a load about not many campy equipped bikes.

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:07:34 GMT, Ningi
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Campy parts are about the same price as Shimano (at least for retail)
unlike with Apple kit 🙂

Quoted message said:

The Shimano calipers run from $40 to $126.
The Campagnolo calipers run from $82 to $170.
There seems to be a considerable price difference.

I've not bought any new kit for 2 years now, but brake calipers are the
only Shimano parts on my bike now, as the Campy calipers were so expensive.
Otherwise, for most of the other parts, Campy was equal or maybe cheaper
than equivalent Shimano parts the last time I upgraded, here in the UK.USA
prices may be different - Italian sourced Campy parts are more expensive
than UK sourced parts.
Alan.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
http://www.dvatc.co.uk - Off-road cycling in the North Midlands.

quote='James Scott'sfcommuter said:

Anyone in the bike industry know why 98% of all stock bikes are
Shimano?

I view Campagnolo as fairly similar in attitude to their automotive
compatriots at Ferrari. Ferrari isn't interested in putting a cavallino
in every garage. They're interested in winning races and building road
cars that incorporate racing technology and have tremendous sex appeal.
So what if they cost six figures and we only sell several hundred every
year? They're "the best" and there's always a market for that. Campy
occupies that same niche in the bicycle world.

JLS
--
James "Easily distracted by shiny objects" Scott
www.jls.cx[/QUOTE]

But the difference in price for a Campagnolo vs. Shimano bike is relatively small, so it's entirely possible to envision many more Campagnolo bikes on the road. Ferraris are beyond the financial reach of everybody but the richest of the rich, so I don't follow this analogy.

It just seems like a missed opportunity for a big company to distinguish itself from competitors and offer something different to the general public. There really seems to be so little difference between most road bikes these days. They all seemed to be spec'd the same way with the same components. But maybe the average buyer doesn't care.

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 19:03:07 +0100, "A.Lee"

alan@darkroom.+.com said:

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 11:19:54 -0600, carlfogel wrote:
Snips a load about not many campy equipped bikes.

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 06 Aug 2004 17:07:34 GMT, Ningi
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Campy parts are about the same price as Shimano (at least for retail)
unlike with Apple kit 🙂

Quoted message said:

The Shimano calipers run from $40 to $126.
The Campagnolo calipers run from $82 to $170.
There seems to be a considerable price difference.

I've not bought any new kit for 2 years now, but brake calipers are the
only Shimano parts on my bike now, as the Campy calipers were so expensive.
Otherwise, for most of the other parts, Campy was equal or maybe cheaper
than equivalent Shimano parts the last time I upgraded, here in the UK.USA
prices may be different - Italian sourced Campy parts are more expensive
than UK sourced parts.
Alan.

Dear Alan,

Given the interest, it's time to go back to the same
catalogue and research some more. Let's see . . .

road brake calipers
Shimano: $40 to $126
Campagnolo: $82 to $170

road brake/shifters
Shimano: $110 to $431
Campagolo: $145 to $270

road front derailleurs
Shimano: $13 to $93
Campagnolo: $40 to $85

road rear derailleurs
Shimano: $20 to $115
Campagnolo: $60 to $180

road cranksets
Shimano: $50 to $410
Campagnolo: $110 to $190

road bottom brackets:
Shimano:$25 to $40
Campagnolo: $20 to $60

Of course, these are raw figures with no adjustment for what
can be mixed and matched, nor for claims of quality.

But the Shimano cheapest-parts total is $258.

The Campagnolo cheapest-total is $457, about twice as much.

There's more to it than that, but I think that economists
would find these differences significant.

Carl Fogel

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

People keep talking about a shortage of Shimano parts for new bikes
coming out, but I still don't understand why none of the big companies
(Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc.) don't carry at least one model that
has Campagnolo as an alternative. I'm not trying to start a Shimano
vs. Campagnolo debate (I have a mix of both on my bike and think they
both make fine components), but I have to wonder if the big bike
companies have special "exclusive" contracts or something with Shimano.
Offering one or two bikes with Campagnolo components would be a good
thing and way to distinguish themselves from the crowd of Shimano bikes
that are more or less the same bike with different paint jobs and
logos.
Anyone in the bike industry know why 98% of all stock bikes are
Shimano?

Shimano probably discounts their components more than Campagnolo. So
it is cheaper to build with Shimano.
------------
Alex

Quoted message said:

road brake/shifters
Shimano: $110 to $431
Campagolo: $145 to $270

Maybe Nashbar doesn't even offer the cheapest Campa component groups? Which ergos
cost $145? The cheapest would be Xenon, which costs about 60 euros (~$75) in Europe.
That's way cheaper than the Sora STI's.

Juho

Quoted message said:

Ningi said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 02:35:45 +1000, sfcommuter
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>People keep talking about a shortage of Shimano parts for new bikes
>coming out, but I still don't understand why none of the big companies
>(Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc.) don't carry at least one model that
>has Campagnolo as an alternative. I'm not trying to start a Shimano
>vs. Campagnolo debate (I have a mix of both on my bike and think they
>both make fine components), but I have to wonder if the big bike
>companies have special "exclusive" contracts or something with Shimano.
>Offering one or two bikes with Campagnolo components would be a good
>thing and way to distinguish themselves from the crowd of Shimano bikes
>that are more or less the same bike with different paint jobs and
>logos.
>
>Anyone in the bike industry know why 98% of all stock bikes are
>Shimano?

Dear Near-Silicon-Valley,

There may be an economic parallel to a certain industry in
which a roughly similar proportion of stock machines do not
come with Apple hardware.

Campy parts are about the same price as Shimano (at least for retail)
unlike with Apple kit 🙂

So I speculate that the lack of Campy equipped bikes might be related to
how easy - or not - Campagnolo are to do business with.

Any of our bike shop people know if this is the case?

Pete

Dear Pete,

I scarcely ever buy either brand, so I flipped open a
Nashbar mid-summer catalogue #194 to see what things cost.
The first thing that I saw was the road brakes section on
page 71.

The Shimano calipers run from $40 to $126.

The Campagnolo calipers run from $82 to $170.

There seems to be a considerable price difference.

Carl Fogel

Aarrgghh.. I _knew_ this was going to happen 🙂

Individual component pricing varies quite a bit, but largely evens out
once you get a complete groupset. Looking at my LBS's component
pricelist, and comparing specifications and weights, you can get
equivalent groupsets for similar prices.

As a pricing (UK pounds) example - here are the groupset prices from my LBS.

Campy Record 10 double - 1097
Shimane Dura Ace double - 1085

Throughout the ranges, the groupset prices are mostly very close.

Back to my main point. Shimano has a larger range (all the MTB stuff as
well) and that is certainly something that might make them easier to to
business with. If you are a large manufacturer selling around the
world, a bigger company is probably going to be easier to deal as well.

So, given that Shimano are having problems supplying road components
(again) - particularly at the high end where in product terms Campy do
very well, Campy must be _really_ bad to deal with for manufacturers to
keep avoiding them.

I'm still hoping some of our bike shop people might be able to confirm
or refute this possibility.

Pete

Juho Huttunen said:

Quoted message said:

road brake/shifters
Shimano: $110 to $431
Campagolo: $145 to $270

Maybe Nashbar doesn't even offer the cheapest Campa component groups? Which ergos
cost $145? The cheapest would be Xenon, which costs about 60 euros (~$75) in Europe.
That's way cheaper than the Sora STI's.

Juho

Dear Juho,

The Nashbar catalogue lists Chorus, Centaur, and Veloce road
brake/shifters, the Veloce being described as "Campagnolo
for those on a budget." at $145 for 9-speed.

I see nothing about Xenon, so perhaps Nashbar sells only the
more expensive Campagnolo equipment?

A quick look at the Performance catalogue shows even fewer
Campagnolo choices. My impression is that in the U.S.
Campagnolo is generally considered to be expensive, high-end
equipment.

There is also the mountain bike factor--I see no signs of
any Campagnolo mountain bike equipment in these catalogues,
so they're a niche manufacturer as far as the U.S. is
concerned. In that sense, they resemble Apple, which is not
thought of as a server manufacturer.

Carl Fogel

sfcommuter said:

James Scott said:

I view Campagnolo as fairly similar in attitude to their automotive
compatriots at Ferrari.

Quoted message said:

But the difference in price for a Campagnolo vs. Shimano bike is
relatively small,

....if you compare Campy to the mid-to-high-end range of Shimano's road
groups only, yes. As other posters have demonstrated, Campy's prices in
the USA for retail to the bike owner tend to be 0-50% higher than the
comparable Shimano product. In some cases, Campy offers products which
do not have a direct Shimano competitor - superlight carbon cranks, Ergo
levers and seatposts come to mind. Similarly, Campy doesn't have comfort
or MTB products to offer. If I need to spec MTBs and comfort bikes in
addition to road racers in my product lines, I might want to go with a
single supplier where increasing the size of my order will give me
additional pricing leverage. And you said "bike" - it may be that while
the price of a Campy-equipped bike is 10% higher than its
Shimano-equipped competitor, the margin on the Campy bike is actually
lower due to the higher cost of components.

Quoted message said:

so it's entirely possible to envision many more
Campagnolo bikes on the road.

Sure we can envision it, but there are likely some very practical
reasons why this isn't the case. For bikes produced in the US, the
current $ - Euro exchange rate strongly discourages importation of
European components. For bikes produced in Asia, getting parts from
Italy to Taiwan is hard to justify when there are perfectly functional,
well-known, locally available alternatives. For Euro-produced and -sold
bikes, Campy has a stronger position, and I'd expect to see more
Campy-spec'ed production bikes there. AFAIK, Bianchi is the only
manufacturer who sells Campy-equipped production bikes in the USA, and
then only on their high-end racing bikes made in Italy.

Quoted message said:

Ferraris are beyond the financial reach
of everybody but the richest of the rich, so I don't follow this
analogy.

In this case I'd say it applies inasmuch as Campy clearly has a niche
strategy pursuing the high end of the component market for road bikes,
just as Ferrari does with cars. Shimano clearly has more of a
mass-market strategy. If you consider the low end of the new-bike market
to be a $50 Roadmaster Mt. Fury (long may its knobbies roar), and the
high end to be an $8,000 custom CF/Ti Record-equipped jobbie, that's
actually a much wider spread than the 20X price differential between a
$10,000 Hyundai and a $200,000 Ferrari.

Quoted message said:

It just seems like a missed opportunity for a big company to
distinguish itself from competitors and offer something different to
the general public.

Assuming that by "big company" you mean the bike manufacturer, we're
back to volume considerations and ability to deliver. If TREK orders
5,000 Record groups to spec out its 2006 Madone SSL2s, and Campy can't
deliver, TREK has just messed up its production schedule something
awful. The same holds true for Shimano, but the wider market adoption
means TREK probably has some alternative suppliers it could call. This
is not necessarily so for Campy. As an aside, this might be one reason
why TREK has Bontrager as a captive brand for components - more control
over supply. Lower cost is another reason for vertical integration.

If Campy continues to grow sales at a manageable rate by evolving its
road products, then it has little incentive to risk its image and
capital by making a big push into OEM markets. If it sees Shimano
falter, and can find the capital to expand its production without
compromising quality, then it might make sense to do so. If it really
wanted to get big into OEM supply, it would probably have to produce
some parts in Taiwan. I'm sure the smart boys and girls in Vicenza have
had some animated conversations about this. Given how loudly some
complain about Thai-made Vittoria tires (for instance), can you imagine
what we'd hear about Ergo levers with "Made in Taiwan" stamped on them?

JLS
--
James "And you thought 'I was misled' would never die" Scott
www.jls.cx

sfcommuter-<< It just seems like a missed opportunity for a big company to
distinguish itself from competitors and offer something different to
the general public. >><BR><BR>

shimano are experts at OEM, that is selling to bicycle makers that supply bike
shops with complete bikes. PLUS many(like Trek) are so in bed with the BIG
segment of the market, MTB, it is unlikely that they would look to Campagnolo
to supply the road bikes.

Plus shimano makes some 'sweetheart' deals for OEM road bikes, perhaps even
losing $ to get all the bicycles in the 'shop' shimano.

Campagnolo is the king of the market where the bicycle starts as a frameset at
the bike shop. They also sell all they make, every year.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

James-<< In this case I'd say it applies inasmuch as Campy clearly has a niche
strategy pursuing the high end of the component market for road bikes,
just as Ferrari does with cars. >><BR><BR>

I think Ferrari is a poor choice. Pick something that has a full range of high
end vehicles, maybe like Audi or Ducati or BMW. Ferrari are exotics, period.
Campagnolo makes Mirage and Veloce, very on par(but superior, IMO) to Sora and
Tiagra.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

carl-<< But the Shimano cheapest-parts total is $258.

The Campagnolo cheapest-total is $457, about twice as much. >><BR><BR>

NOT comparible components tho. Just equivalent positions in the 'heirarchy'.
Kinda like a top of the line Mercedes and the top of the line Ford.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

sfcommuter said:

Anyone in the bike industry know why 98% of all stock bikes are
Shimano?

Mainly 'cuz most consumers are familiar with Shimano but not Campy.

I had a direct line to Sachs for a while about 7-8 years ago - for the
money it was head and shoulders above what Shimano was offering. I
was hooked into Ritchey as well, and was using their excellent
components to finish off the build kits.

Sold very little of it.

Most folks would ask for a quote with Ultegra or LX or XT with the kit
(saddle, stem, bars, etc.) that everyone else was building with at the
time.

Now I'm doing the "cookie cutter route" as well - Shimano, Campy,
Mavic rims... sigh. Of course we do still offer options, but 98%
don't want 'em.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame