Why not just rest on easy days?

I can't argue with you there, although it does depend on how much you ride on your normal days.

What's the rationale of whomever is telling you otherwise?

I'm a heavy believer in a 2-3 days completely off each week during intense training. The only problem might be feeling blocked the day of a race, if you took the previous couple days off. In most cases if I am racing on Sat and Sun, I will do a decent ride on Fri and again the next morning. That way, when I get to the race on Sat afternoon, I am ready to roll and my body is in "mode".

I take 1 easy day and 1 day off everyweek. But I have to do something the day before a race for sure.

Don't know about others, but I just end up eating and eating... and eating.

tarczan said:

If anyone has ever lifted weights, they know a lifter lifts hard one day and rests the next. Why doesn't this apply to cycling? For someone who just wants to be able to go pretty hard for no more than 2 hours, I don't see why riding on the off days helps. Usually you end up going a little harder and longer than planned, and tire yourself for the upcoming hard effort.

Wouldn't one be better off resting and really being fresh and going hard on the planned hard day? It seems like the off day ride just tires you out a little, with no real contribution to fitness.

I'm with ya on this one. I have discussed this before with some local guys & they think I'm off my rocker, they say its 2 different sports 🙄 & cycling is a aerobic sport. 😕 If you go with a group ride and hammer yourself into the ground for 3-4hrs with your buddies, sprinting for signs, sprinting up hills, going anaerobic or you do L5/6/7 intervals, your muscles need a 24-48hrs to recover fully regardless of what sport broke them down that way. I myself don't find the benefit of going out the next day & riding another 2hrs with the group, you cant be fully recovered. Only reason I can think of is to go out by yourself for an hour and noodle 15-16mph for recovery. A person wouldn't go to the gym on Monday workout hard then go to the gym on Tuesday also and lift again easy, like 50-60% less weight and think your getting a benefit.

THE ONLY EXCEPTION I think is when you are doing long L2-3 rides, of course you can ride the next day, you didn't bust the muscle up. You can also do L4s, I cant but other guys have no problem.
I had a usa coach from Colorado springs write me a program years ago that included a 5hr ride on Saturday & 5hrs on Sunday, I though no way will I recover to do it again the next day, well I did, I had no problem because he had me riding at L2, roughly he told me to only average 15mph. If I went out with a group an Saturday for 5hrs, no way could I do it again Sunday with the same quality.

My advise tarczan, find what works for you because you will never win this discussion, I haven't for over 5 years. 😄
I do take off after hard days & I ride only 4 days a week, Im always recovered for the following days workload & Im kicking my buddies tails now. Don't they say that your body builds back stronger not from the workout but from the recovery from the workout, I don't see how my buddies are recovering when they ride pretty hard 6 days a week :eek:

Everyone's body is different. With me, I find that if I drive to work like I did today (I rode yesterday) I get home feeling more flat than if I had ridden my steed. I had a big lunch so when I get home I plan to put the MagTrainer in front of the TV and watch the football, do maybe a half-hour at HR of 175-180 bpm...then tomorrow morning do maybe 80 kms. Should be fine. But If I don't do the stationary trainer, tomorrow willl be a bit of a slog.
I need a bit of work on the easy or off days, or I can feel jaded.
Lots of guys I've ridden with, reckon you can go hard for maybe 3 days a week, and they go hard on our bunch rides...it don't work for me, I need 4 days solid, Friday very very light, then I can do a Saturday bunch ride.

tarczan said:

If anyone has ever lifted weights, they know a lifter lifts hard one day and rests the next. Why doesn't this apply to cycling? For someone who just wants to be able to go pretty hard for no more than 2 hours, I don't see why riding on the off days helps. Usually you end up going a little harder and longer than planned, and tire yourself for the upcoming hard effort.

Wouldn't one be better off resting and really being fresh and going hard on the planned hard day? It seems like the off day ride just tires you out a little, with no real contribution to fitness.

tarczan said:

If anyone has ever lifted weights, they know a lifter lifts hard one day and rests the next. Why doesn't this apply to cycling? For someone who just wants to be able to go pretty hard for no more than 2 hours, I don't see why riding on the off days helps. Usually you end up going a little harder and longer than planned, and tire yourself for the upcoming hard effort.

Wouldn't one be better off resting and really being fresh and going hard on the planned hard day? It seems like the off day ride just tires you out a little, with no real contribution to fitness.

Many possible flaws in the above tarczan. When you say lifter, do you mean a competitive powerlifter? If you're talking about bodybuiders, what you say is just not true. What they don't do is work on the same muscle group day after day.
So, on Tuesday I would do bench press (pecs) and biceps -dumbell curls etc.
On the Wednesday I would do back and triceps. On Thursday, shoulders and perhaps biceps again. On Friday, return to bench press and so on. Resting on Saturday.

As for resting, as you say we are all different, though I suspect in many cases the need for a rest is perhaps more psychological than physiological. If you look at my "It's killing me" thread today, you will see I've only had one complete day off since Sunday. Although I regarded Thursday as a rest day, I still spun at 220watts for 40 mins and then a lighter spin at 170-200W for 20 mins though that was at a cadence of 120. Hardly a rest. And to top it all, it was my best week ever.

Now that is for a 64 year old not a young buck.😄 And what's more RapDaddyo at 63 (I think) takes far fewer days off than I do.

Many years ago, when I was in my early 50s, some well meaning idiot told me I should take every other day off as I was over 50! BULLSH-T!! And until I found this forum I trained by that philosophy and the training days were nowhere near as hard as they are at present.
It all depends on what drives you and to a certain extent your genes.😉 TYSON

Sillyoldtwit said:

Many possible flaws in the above tarczan. When you say lifter, do you mean a competitive powerlifter? If you're talking about bodybuiders, what you say is just not true. What they don't do is work on the same muscle group day after day.

I was about to chime in on this, but you did well enough.
I was fortunate to train in a gym the had world class powerlifters, olympic weightlifters and bodybuilders from local level to professional level and I would say about 95% of those trained almost everyday in some fashion or another. The recreational lifters seemed to be the ones who had a more relaxed schedule.

I now train with weights Monday through Friday, Spin bike classes Monday through Friday, long road ride on Saturday and easy ride on Sunday (though the easy ride still gets competitive - "one guy on a bike is an easy ride, two guys on bikes is a race"😉. Though my wife rarely sees me anymore I am virtually training more now than I did when I was a competitive bodybuilder and that was a lot of intense training back in the day. I typically schedule a down time twice a year where I will take a week off of all training and my wife and I will take a vacation, but my wife will train even on vacation so I have to find places to stay that has a gym for her.

tarczan said:

If anyone has ever lifted weights, they know a lifter lifts hard one day and rests the next. Why doesn't this apply to cycling? For someone who just wants to be able to go pretty hard for no more than 2 hours, I don't see why riding on the off days helps. Usually you end up going a little harder and longer than planned, and tire yourself for the upcoming hard effort.

Wouldn't one be better off resting and really being fresh and going hard on the planned hard day? It seems like the off day ride just tires you out a little, with no real contribution to fitness.

If you have the disposable time, then do it. Recovery rides speed recovery. But it needs to be proper recovery ride. If you end up going harder & faster than you intend, then it's better to stay off the bike.

If time is a precious commodity, like it is for many people, then skip it. Recovery rides help to be sure. But there are plenty of people who do just fine not riding on those days.

Felt_Rider said:

I was about to chime in on this, but you did well enough.
I was fortunate to train in a gym the had world class powerlifters, olympic weightlifters and bodybuilders from local level to professional level and I would say about 95% of those trained almost everyday in some fashion or another. The recreational lifters seemed to be the ones who had a more relaxed schedule.

I now train with weights Monday through Friday, Spin bike classes Monday through Friday, long road ride on Saturday and easy ride on Sunday (though the easy ride still gets competitive - "one guy on a bike is an easy ride, two guys on bikes is a race"😉. Though my wife rarely sees me anymore I am virtually training more now than I did when I was a competitive bodybuilder and that was a lot of intense training back in the day. I typically schedule a down time twice a year where I will take a week off of all training and my wife and I will take a vacation, but my wife will train even on vacation so I have to find places to stay that has a gym for her.

Glad to see we are getting some resemblance of balance in this thread. I was beginning to wonder where all the "no rest" advocates were. Too busy training I assumed.😄

But yes FR, in my powerlifting days on the olympic bar we trained 6 to 7 days a week. Later because of injury (one bad [censored]), took up running and used to run twice a day 5 days a week and a 20plus mile run every Saturday or a race if there was one going.

I think as someone recently said here somewhere - you have to train hard to learn to train hard, or words to that effect.😄

Sillyoldtwit said:

Glad to see we are getting some resemblance of balance in this thread. I was beginning to wonder where all the "no rest" advocates were. Too busy training I assumed.😄

Oh, I'm a "no rest" advocate, if by "no rest" you mean managing one's training load within the body's ability to recover on a continuous basis without needing *dedicated* rest periods. (That's what you meant, right? 😄 )

The OP was asking about "resting" instead of an "easy day", which is slightly different. If taking an "easy day" is already a given in the routine (due to schedule, other commitments 1-2x per week, etc), then you may as well just use those days as "rest" and train on the other days. Recovery rides are in the same boat -- if you need to recover, then rest is about as good as it gets (although recovery rides are a bit more fun).

In reality, since we have no context whatsoever for the discussion that the OP is referring to, and don't know how much that person rides, it's going to be impossible to give any relevant advice regarding the amount of rest that's needed. You're talking about lifting and doing short rides on a stationary in the gym, while Jeff828 is talking about 3-4hr spirited group rides, so it's going to be a bit difficult to get much consensus on whether rest days are needed or not. 🙂

tarczan said:

If anyone has ever lifted weights, they know a lifter lifts hard one day and rests the next. Why doesn't this apply to cycling? For someone who just wants to be able to go pretty hard for no more than 2 hours, I don't see why riding on the off days helps. Usually you end up going a little harder and longer than planned, and tire yourself for the upcoming hard effort.

Wouldn't one be better off resting and really being fresh and going hard on the planned hard day? It seems like the off day ride just tires you out a little, with no real contribution to fitness.

Can you see my point chief, you will never win this conversation or way of thinking 😄 (unless a TDF coach or nationally ranking coach comes up and says this does work) Its kinda like the guy who suggested to lance to spin up the climbs (he must have been insane :eek: ) instead of the tried & true way its been done for years @70-80rpm, why change the idea that's been working for over 100 years. I don't disrespect what other guys are saying, I'm just saying that you have to find out what works for each person and don't rule out what might seem not the norm, some of these guys can do back to back to back days.

[Quote] You're talking about lifting and doing short rides on a stationary in the gym, while Jeff828 is talking about 3-4hr spirited group rides, so it's going to be a bit difficult to get much consensus on whether rest days are needed or not.[Quote]

Whether a rest day is need should be fairly simple now with power meters. IMOpinion if you cant go out the next day and repeat the same workout same workload for the same period of time (power meters should show if you are producing the watts) then a rest day is needed. Now or my next crazy way of thinking :eek: 😕


Can you get stronger and produce more watts by riding EASY? If the answer is no, then what's the purpose of going out the next day since you can only make progress by stressing the body so it will adapt. Can you make physical strength gains on your "easy days", not counting LSD rides, we're talking after a hard day? (I need some LSD right now 😄 )

"The OP was asking about "resting" instead of an "easy day", which is slightly different."


IMO I see there is no difference between the two,
1) If you have to go that easy might as well take the day off.
2) If you have to go easy the next day, again you cant do any beneficial work can you? outside of recovery.



French hit the nail on the head
If taking an "easy day" is already a given in the routine (due to schedule, other commitments 1-2x per week, etc), then you may as well just use those days as "rest" and train on the other days. Recovery rides are in the same boat -- if you need to recover, then rest is about as good as it gets (although recovery rides are a bit more fun).


Sorry if I sound like a lunatic, but forgot to take the meds dis morning 😕 😄 :eek: :o

[quote="jeff828"]Can you see my point chief, you will never win this conversation or way of thinking 😄 (unless a TDF coach or nationally ranking coach comes up and says this does work) Its kinda like the guy who suggested to lance to spin up the climbs (he must have been insane :eek: ) instead of the tried & true way its been done for years @70-80rpm, why change the idea that's been working for over 100 years. I don't disrespect what other guys are saying, I'm just saying that you have to find out what works for each person and don't rule out what might seem not the norm, some of these guys can do back to back to back days.

[Quote] You're talking about lifting and doing short rides on a stationary in the gym, while Jeff828 is talking about 3-4hr spirited group rides, so it's going to be a bit difficult to get much consensus on whether rest days are needed or not.

Quoted post said:

Whether a rest day is need should be fairly simple now with power meters. IMOpinion if you cant go out the next day and repeat the same workout same workload for the same period of time (power meters should show if you are producing the watts) then a rest day is needed. Now or my next crazy way of thinking :eek: 😕

Can you get stronger and produce more watts by riding EASY? If the answer is no, then what's the purpose of going out the next day since you can only make progress by stressing the body so it will adapt. Can you make physical strength gains on your "easy days", not counting LSD rides, we're talking after a hard day? (I need some LSD right now 😄 )

"The OP was asking about "resting" instead of an "easy day", which is slightly different."

IMO I see there is no difference between the two,
1) If you have to go that easy might as well take the day off.
2) If you have to go easy the next day, again you cant do any beneficial work can you? outside of recovery.

French hit the nail on the head
If taking an "easy day" is already a given in the routine (due to schedule, other commitments 1-2x per week, etc), then you may as well just use those days as "rest" and train on the other days. Recovery rides are in the same boat -- if you need to recover, then rest is about as good as it gets (although recovery rides are a bit more fun).

Sorry if I sound like a lunatic, but forgot to take the meds dis morning 😕 😄 :eek: :o

jeff828 said:

Whether a rest day is need should be fairly simple now with power meters. IMOpinion if you cant go out the next day and repeat the same workout same workload for the same period of time (power meters should show if you are producing the watts) then a rest day is needed. Now or my next crazy way of thinking :eek: 😕

Interesting that you should say this.

I have only had a power meter for a couple weeks, but my experience so far has been that my power during intervals is down on days after I don't ride at all. So, I will be trying to do recovery rides the day before races, intervals, or hard group rides, whereas I may take a complete day off the day before a longer, steadier ride.

But, I agree with Frenchyge that a good training program may not even need weekly rest days. all the recovery you need can come within the 24 hours between workouts. I'll be doing more of this in the winter when my training time becomes (slightly) limited.

jeff828 said:

Can you see my point chief, you will never win this conversation or way of thinking 😄

It's not his way of thinking, it's the lack of specifics that make the discussion hard to conclude. I mean, after a really hard ride it probably would be a good idea to take a day off, but after a moderate ride it's not necessary unless the ride is really long. What's to debate?

jeff828 said:

"The OP was asking about "resting" instead of an "easy day", which is slightly different."

IMO I see there is no difference between the two,
1) If you have to go that easy might as well take the day off.
2) If you have to go easy the next day, again you cant do any beneficial work can you? outside of recovery.

I was pointing out the difference between the question being asked and a "no rest" scenario. The OP presumes that some rest is needed.

whoawhoa said:

Interesting that you should say this.

I have only had a power meter for a couple weeks,

whoawhoa you have been in this power thread for a while now, talking it up about wattage training. I thought you had a power meter this whole time, here you just said you just got it a few weeks ago? What were you using before, there were some numbers posted back in march, were did they come from, just curious. Hope I can get to that FTP.

Re: Poll: What's your Functional Threshold power?

ID FT Wt. W/Kg 10m(16km) 25m(40km)
=========================================
musher 340 64 5.31
BullGod 365 70 5.21
Camoscio 315 62 5.08
gvanwagner 325 64 5.08
musher 318 65 4.89
whoawhoa 290 62 4.68
gonzalovilaseca 310 68 4.56
PSUCycling 305 68 4.48
zaskar 280 63 4.44
joule 266 60 4.43
bikeguy 315 72 4.38 5 km rolling TT, 7:15; standard, no aero bars, after 90k
rouleur 315 72 4.38
Thorman 340 78 4.36
Lazy Llama 286 66 4.33 13.3 mi TT, 30:12
dshep27283 345 80 4.31
postal_bag 325 76 4.28
peterpen 275 65 4.23
mattv2099 314 75 4.19
Stanette 313 75 4.17
yzfrr11 310 75 4.13
Spunout 280 68 4.12
RapDaddyo 325 80 4.06
pledac 280 69 4.06
jbvcoaching 310 77 4.03 21:10 52:17
jack.hutchinson 285 71 4.01
cube 290 73 3.97
Old Junker 250 63 3.97
velomanct 310 79 3.92
BlueJersey 230 60 3.83
robkit 280 75 3.73
sugaken 240 66 3.64
amartinez 242 67 3.61
woodgab 321 89 3.61
Hookyrider 284 80 3.55
bigbevans 250 75 3.33 22:41 59:55
Krazyderek 260 78 3.33
AndROOb 232 71 3.27
spomanski 310 96 3.23
beerco 220 78 2.82
the holster 180 67 2.69

jeff828 said:

whoawhoa you have been in this power thread for a while now, talking it up about wattage training. I thought you had a power meter this whole time, here you just said you just got it a few weeks ago? What were you using before, there were some numbers posted back in march, were did they come from, just curious. Hope I can get to that FTP.

They came from a few sources, mostly from my trainer, the kurt kinetic, which can be used to get a fair estimation of power (several posters here who had pm's at the time were kind enough to verify that). Also, my last update came after some efforts in the mountains alongside someone with an SRM. Now, I see that these are definitely not the best ways to (gu)estimate FTP, but, they were surprisingly accurate I've learned now that I have my powermeter. Except I now way a bit more than 62.5 kg, but could probably get down to that fairly easily.

And sorry, I always tried to make it clear I didn't have a true PM until recently.:o

I've also been experimenting with resting on my hard days.

Thanks all for some good thoughts. I know a very, very succesful racer who told me his whole training plan was go hard on the hard days, easy on the easy days (but to the tune of 400+miles a week). I think part of the answer must be found in what you are trying to accomplish. No grand tours for me, so I don't need the ability to go for weeks on end. I also understand that as fitness increases, the recovery time decreases. The point about weightlifters lifting on consecutive days is mis taken. They never do benches two days in a row, each muscle group is given 5 days or more to recover. After a day of sprints or intervals, I go out and just can't get the mojo going, but sometimes a very easy spin helps.

The particular point I'm questionig is the tuesday sprints, wednesday endurance ride, and thursday intervals routine so often quoted. This is advised by Arnie Baker, who honestly really seems to know what he is doing. But by the time thursday rolls around the intervals aren't as good as they should be.My heart rate on the intervals always seems to be 10+ points higher when I'm rested, and I assume this is better training.

My guess is that the answer lies with the conditioning of the individual, and was hinted at by some posters above, that fitness is a long slow progression, and it takes a long time and a gradual ramping up of load and intensity to be able to utilize these cookbook training plans.