Why not generator lights?

"davidd86" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why do people hate generator lights so much in the good ol' USA? I
recently rigged up a system and all I can say is, it's one of the
half-dozen greatest things since sliced bread. ...

What kind did you buy? What did you pay? How much does it weigh?

I ride regularly with a NiteRider and my last experiences with generators
were as a kid in Europe. I just remember major drag on the tire and sidewall
damage (they weren't the kind with the roller against the outside tire
surface). I'm glad I have what I have.

I sure do like my bright light when I'm riding down steep hills at high
speed at night. I'm not motivated to buy a generator setup yet, but when my
NiteRider dies (which it will, like my first one), I'll look into
alternatives. One thing I don't like is being concerned about how long I can
stay out after dark before my battery dies. Not usually an issue since I can
mangage about three hours.

Boris

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

Why not use one of the wide selection of standlight-equipped LED
rear lights for use with dynamos?

Don't want wires all over the place. Purely an aesthetic prejudice.
The old French guys like Routens, Singer and Herse had some innovative
wiring methods to hide the wires- in the case of Herse the "eclairage
sans fils" which used a brush contact in the head tube rather than a
wire crossing between frame and fork.

My first ten speed, circa 1972 (a German "Staiger", never heard of
before or since) had internal wiring for a generator light. At the
time, I didn't realize how unusual that was.

Anybody try running their wiring internally? If my 1972 Raleigh ever
bites the dust, I plan to do that with its replacement.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Boris Foelsch said:

I ride regularly with a NiteRider ...

One thing I don't like is being concerned about how long I can

Quoted message said:

stay out after dark before my battery dies. Not usually an issue since I can
mangage about three hours.

That will decay with time. I regularly lead night rides for my bike
club. "What the *#%? This battery's supposed to be good for three
hours!" is a pretty common remark.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Frank Krygowski said:

Quoted message said:

Anybody try running their wiring internally? If my 1972 Raleigh ever
bites the dust, I plan to do that with its replacement.

good chance the wires break where they exit the frame, and then you'll
have to remove the bracketaxle to repair

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

kbob said:

A good chunk of the US bicycle light market is the 24 hour mountain
bike race users. When climbing, a generator often produces inadequate
light. Yes, you might climb a bit faster without the weight of a 6A*H
battery but you don't have drag of a dynamo nor do you have the
traction problem when the course gets muddy, I know, hub mounted don't
have this problem but then when you have a flat.

The standard HID, even with the conical beam, is far superior on such
applications than any dynamo/generator setup. And a 6 degree spot HID
is superior for road use.

"Good chunk"??
What's a good "chunk"? One percent? Half of that? You
should get out more. I bet there are over one hundred
commuters for every 24 hour challenge entry.

Even casual cyclists have probably a 20% penetration rate
for light ownership. They alone are likely a few million
more lights than all the 24-hour MTB participants combined.

I'm not arguing suitability. Your 'chunk" is pretty small
among "'all cyclists".
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In the USA peter White Cycles sells the Schmidt generator lights. $200
for the hub alone. $300 for a built wheel. Lights are about $40 each
for Busch-Lumotec and $90 each for Schmidt. 3 Watts each. Up to two
lights can be powered by the Schmidt. So you are looking at $340,
$380, $390, or $480 for 3 Watts or 6 Watts of Schmidt generator light
in the USA.

Most mail order places sell the NiteRider 10 Watt HeadTrip NiMH battery
powered light for $120. Before sales codes for 10% or 20% off at
Performance or Nashbar. I have this unit, as well as several other
NiteRider units. It runs for a bit over 2 hours. 10 Watts is more
light than 3 Watts or 6 Watts. NiteRider also sells similar setups
that mount to the handlebars for a similar price.

Its a lot cheaper to get a very good battery powered unit than a good
quality generator light setup. Even if you replace batteries every 2-3
years of regular use it will take a long time to equal the cost of the
Schmidt generator setup. For the 1-2 hours of night time commuting or
1-2 hours of after work night time riding some people do, the battery
powered units serve extremely well. For much lower cost than the
Schmidt generator setup.

I know someone with a Schmidt. He used it on PBP in 2003. He uses his
NiteRider 15 Watt helmet mounted light for the week night group rides
around town. There is no comparison between the 15 Watt NiteRider and
the 3 Watt Schmidt driven light. The NiteRider is far, far superior.

If I get around to doing some 1200k brevets, I'll spend the $480 for
the Schmidt because it is unequalled for all night riding. It has its
niche. But for people not riding ALL night, who are only riding 1-2-3
hours at most, and have access to electricity between rides, the
NiteRider battery type lights are cheaper and give much, much more
light. Of all the night riders, how many ride ALL night compared to
those who ride 1-2 hours or so and then go home or to the office, etc.

Quoted message said:

10 Watts is more light than 3 Watts or 6 Watts.

Not necessarily. The figures that you mention are power
consumption, not light output. Even two lights with the
same total output can have very different beam patterns.

In my experience, the Lumotec and Schmidt 2.4W or 3.0W
lights provide light roughly equivalent to most "big name"
10W lights. The difference is primarily in beam pattern.
Most lights have a good-sized bright spot in the middle of
the beam and then a dimmer area outside of that. The
Schmidt and Lumotec lights have all of the bright spot but
none of the dimmer "scatter" area. This works quite well
for most road use.

Todd Kuzma

Frank Krygowski said:

Tim McNamara said:

Quoted message said:

Why not use one of the wide selection of standlight-equipped LED
rear lights for use with dynamos?

Don't want wires all over the place. Purely an aesthetic

prejudice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The old French guys like Routens, Singer and Herse had some

innovative

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wiring methods to hide the wires- in the case of Herse the

"eclairage

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sans fils" which used a brush contact in the head tube rather than

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

wire crossing between frame and fork.

My first ten speed, circa 1972 (a German "Staiger", never heard of
before or since) had internal wiring for a generator light. At the
time, I didn't realize how unusual that was.

Anybody try running their wiring internally? If my 1972 Raleigh ever

Quoted message said:

bites the dust, I plan to do that with its replacement.

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

Some of the Koga-Miyata touring frames are designed to make internal
wiring easier, with holes drilled in the right places and little rubber
plugs. I've never used them, since I use a blinky in back.

I have been able to run a wire to my generator hub inside a fork leg on
one of my bikes. (Into a vent hole inside the crown and then out again
at another vent hole near the forkend.) Couldn't get it to work on a
fork with lowrider braze-ons though.

Quoted message said:

Its a lot cheaper to get a very good battery powered unit than a
good quality generator light setup. Even if you replace batteries
every 2-3 years of regular use it will take a long time to equal the
cost of the Schmidt generator setup. For the 1-2 hours of night
time commuting or 1-2 hours of after work night time riding some
people do, the battery powered units serve extremely well. For much
lower cost than the Schmidt generator setup.

I know someone with a Schmidt. He used it on PBP in 2003. He uses
his NiteRider 15 Watt helmet mounted light for the week night group
rides around town. There is no comparison between the 15 Watt
NiteRider and the 3 Watt Schmidt driven light. The NiteRider is
far, far superior.

"Far, far superior" is only an opinion, not a fact. I've got both of
the lights whereof you speak, and since getting the Schmidt and
Lumotec I haven't used the NiteRider except as a flashlight around the
house. IMHO the Schmidt is superior in both lighting and convenience.
But how can this be, you ask, since more is better and 15 watts is
obviously superior to 3 watts? Is there really no comparison? Let's
put that assumption to the test, shall we?

First, let's start with convenience. To use the NiteRider, I have to
plan ahead to make sure the battery is charged up. I can't just go
out for a night ride on a whim. To use the Schmidt, all I have to do
is pedal the bike and flip a switch. It's 8:40 at night as I type
this and I could go on a ride with my Schmidt in 15 minutes. I'd need
a lead time of four hours or more to go on a ride with the NiteRider-
so I could leave after midnight.

Second, to use the NiteRider, I have to plan the distance of my ride
based on my estimate of the available battery life- which changes with
the temperature, how long it's been charging, etc. I have to leave a
margin of safety for flat tires or just guessing wrong about battery
life. With the Schmidt, I can ride whatever length of time I feel
like.

Third, the lamp for my NiteRider is (naturally) mounted on my helmet,
which puts the source of illumination above my eyes. This results in
decreased depth perception through washing out the information needed
about the road surface. The pool of light is shorter, since it had to
be pointed down at a sharper angle in order to see the road in front
of the wheel, which leaves the road ahead unlit. There is an
advantage in that the beam is pointed with head movement, so the light
tends to fall on whatever I am looking at- but if I am looking away
from the road, I lose peripheral vision that might reveal something in
the road that I might hit. The lamp for my Schmidt is mounted at the
fork crown, giving a much longer pool of light that illuminates both
the riad right in front of my wheel as well as a block ahead. Since
the road is always illuminated, I have the advantage of being able to
see something in the road with peripheral vision if I am looking away.

Fourth, the NiteRider is so bright that it interferes with dark
adaptation by over-lighting close or reflective objects. This
actually makes it harder to see while riding at night, not better. My
Schmidt/Lumotec, providing less intense light but better coverage,
lets my eyes get dark adapted, so that 40 mph descents on unfamiliar
roads feel fine. People with normal night vision can see with these
lights just fine.

Fifth, the highly focused beam of the NiteRider doesn't illuminate
street signs unless I point the light at them (resulting in dazzling
brightness that makes it hard to see well for the next couple of
minutes). The Schmidt/Lumotec provides a wide enough beam to allow me
to at least see street signs and usually to read them; since these
often contain moderately helpful information, IMHO this is good.

Sixth, I don't like the feeling of the battery cable running up the
back of my neck and the extra weight of the light on my helmet. For
that matter, I don't always wear a helmet to attach the NiteRider to.

So, the Schmidt/Lumotec may not be the best choice for you for your
own reasons (e.g., off-road riding at slow speeds is not a situation
where the Schmidt works well). That's fine. But this malarkey that
the NiteRider is "far, far superior" is hogwash. It does put out more
light, but it is less useful than the Schmidt.

In article <[email hidden]>, davidd86
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Commuters love generators because they are a no hassle, convenient and
relatively theft deterent devices that they love using them. I
personally switched from a dead rechargeable light system to a Sanden
TAK1NSK generator light that I bought from International Bike Light and
have been using it for 3 years without any problems. Aside from some
slipping when riding in the rain and snow, it works great. I usually
complement it with a Planet Bike Single Spot LED light to let people
see me when I'm not in motion.

Unfortunately, most people are going for the big lights because they
felt the need to feel MORE secure riding at night and as much as I
tried to convince them otherwise, they still went for the Night Hawks,
Nite Riders and the HIDs. But then, this is the land of free choices,
so I am sticking with my generator light.

Tim McNamara said:

davidd86 said:

Why do people hate generator lights so much in the good ol' USA?

Well, most people's experiences with generators goes back to the 60's
and 70's with cheap Soubitez bottle generators. Not so satisfactory.
Modern generators (called dynamos almost everywhere but here in the
US) are so much better. Among the randonneuring crowd in the US, the
Schmidt SON is the ne plus ultra of generators. I have one and it is
superb; I ain't going back to the hassles of battery lights except for
short-term (caught at dusk on my racing bike) rides in the dark.

OTOH, LED taillights are markedly superior to incandecent ones that
are usually used with generators. I use these without a second
thought.

eye of the beholder.

I just came in from riding my bike with a Soubitez CL-89,
the old model. This one's been on many a bike. It's as
quiet as new - pretty darned quiet - and fairly bright. No
complaints here.

It comes down, I think, to matter of taste. I find that sort
of light adequate and it has cost me less than $5 in bulbs
over a lifetime of use. I also never leave it home.

One last thought. Mine are set up to run along a radian of
the wheel and have a Margil rubber cap. They can be set up
so as to make a racket but it isn't inherent.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Also (while I'm sure many folks will quickly write this off as irrelevant and/or the rantings of a zealot), the zen of the thing is sooo much better with a generator! You're using your legs. That's how it should be. They didn't burn coal a couple of hours ago at the generating plant to make power that you now store in a rechargeable battery. I mean artificially-powered _anything_, you could argue, is outta place on a bike. If you're gonna use a NightRider setup, why not power a small electric motor with the battery, etc. etc. All I'm sayin' is it sure ain't so pure with a battery.

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not proposing taking the generator thing mountain biking over rugged terrain -- that's downright laughable -- sure, go ahead and use a stout battery system there. I'm just saying, if you don't _need_ it, might as well get rid of it!)

quote='A Muzi'Tim McNamara said:

davidd86 said:

Why do people hate generator lights so much in the good ol' USA?

Well, most people's experiences with generators goes back to the 60's
and 70's with cheap Soubitez bottle generators. Not so satisfactory.
Modern generators (called dynamos almost everywhere but here in the
US) are so much better. Among the randonneuring crowd in the US, the
Schmidt SON is the ne plus ultra of generators. I have one and it is
superb; I ain't going back to the hassles of battery lights except for
short-term (caught at dusk on my racing bike) rides in the dark.

OTOH, LED taillights are markedly superior to incandecent ones that
are usually used with generators. I use these without a second
thought.

eye of the beholder.

I just came in from riding my bike with a Soubitez CL-89,
the old model. This one's been on many a bike. It's as
quiet as new - pretty darned quiet - and fairly bright. No
complaints here.

It comes down, I think, to matter of taste. I find that sort
of light adequate and it has cost me less than $5 in bulbs
over a lifetime of use. I also never leave it home.

One last thought. Mine are set up to run along a radian of
the wheel and have a Margil rubber cap. They can be set up
so as to make a racket but it isn't inherent.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971[/QUOTE]

"davidd86" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Also (while I'm sure many folks will quickly write this off as
irrelevant and/or the rantings of a zealot), the zen of the thing is
sooo much better with a generator! You're using your legs. That's how
it should be. They didn't burn coal a couple of hours ago at the
generating plant to make power that you now store in a rechargeable
battery. I mean artificially-powered _anything_, you could argue, is
outta place on a bike. If you're gonna use a NightRider setup, why not
power a small electric motor with the battery, etc. etc. All I'm sayin'
is it sure ain't so pure with a battery.

At least at the coal fired generating plant they have precipitators and
scrubbers to remove the greenhouse gases before it goes up the stack. Does
your backside have constant monitoring by environmental organizations? Do
you get fined every time you fart greenhouse gases? Do you consume more food
to produce that energy?
If bicycle generators are so dammed efficient why don't power stations
consist of thousands of people pedaling on fixed bikes with generators
attached?

My bike uses a Van de Graaff generator. Use a fine wire on the front tyre to
pick up the static charge which is stored in a Leyden jar (made from a
polyethylene food container) before powering an ionization type lamp. (Low
pressure sodium for a nice orange glow.) Much more efficient!

Marty

Marty Wallace said:

"davidd86" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Also (while I'm sure many folks will quickly write this off as
irrelevant and/or the rantings of a zealot), the zen of the thing is
sooo much better with a generator! You're using your legs. That's how
it should be. They didn't burn coal a couple of hours ago at the
generating plant to make power that you now store in a rechargeable
battery. I mean artificially-powered _anything_, you could argue, is
outta place on a bike. If you're gonna use a NightRider setup, why not
power a small electric motor with the battery, etc. etc. All I'm sayin'
is it sure ain't so pure with a battery.

At least at the coal fired generating plant they have precipitators and
scrubbers to remove the greenhouse gases before it goes up the stack. Does
your backside have constant monitoring by environmental organizations? Do
you get fined every time you fart greenhouse gases? Do you consume more food
to produce that energy?

Precipitators and scrubbers do not remove greenhouse gases. They
remove particulates and sulfur compounds. They address acid rain, not
global warming. Carbon dioxide is the big greenhouse gas. Plants (the
green leafy kind) remove it from the atmosphere and convert it to
tasty things. When you eat the plants, or eat a dog or cow who ate the
plants, and then fart or breathe, you release it back into the
atmosphere. It is a nice cycle. It even has a name. The carbon in
coal has been tucked away for millions of years, releasing it is like
printing new money. Big difference.

Quoted message said:

If bicycle generators are so dammed efficient why don't power stations
consist of thousands of people pedaling on fixed bikes with generators
attached?

That is actually the way the world works, most people just don't
realize it. Take the red pill and see how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

Quoted message said:

My bike uses a Van de Graaff generator. Use a fine wire on the front tyre to
pick up the static charge which is stored in a Leyden jar (made from a
polyethylene food container) before powering an ionization type lamp. (Low
pressure sodium for a nice orange glow.) Much more efficient!>
Marty

Sounds like a good solution!

Marty Wallace said:

"davidd86" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Also (while I'm sure many folks will quickly write this off as
irrelevant and/or the rantings of a zealot), the zen of the thing
is sooo much better with a generator! You're using your legs.
That's how it should be. They didn't burn coal a couple of hours
ago at the generating plant to make power that you now store in a
rechargeable battery. I mean artificially-powered _anything_, you
could argue, is outta place on a bike. If you're gonna use a
NightRider setup, why not power a small electric motor with the
battery, etc. etc. All I'm sayin' is it sure ain't so pure with a
battery.

At least at the coal fired generating plant they have precipitators
and scrubbers to remove the greenhouse gases before it goes up the
stack. Does your backside have constant monitoring by environmental
organizations? Do you get fined every time you fart greenhouse
gases? Do you consume more food to produce that energy?

Good grief, what a stupid comment. Jeez, Marty, it would take 20,000
people farting to equal the greenhouse gases produced to provide
enough energy to charge up a battery at your local coal-powered
electricity plant.

Tim McNamara said:

David Damerell said:

Tim McNamara said:

OTOH, LED taillights are markedly superior to incandecent ones that
are usually used with generators. I use these without a second
thought.

Why not use one of the wide selection of standlight-equipped LED
rear lights for use with dynamos?

Don't want wires all over the place.

Fair enough; but that's completely different from what you first said,
that they are superior to dynamo rear lights.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

Quoted message said:

In the USA peter White Cycles sells the Schmidt generator lights. $200
for the hub alone. $300 for a built wheel.

This is Scharf-style pricing. There's nothing wrong with the Nexus; I have
a SON and I like it, but that's simply because I could afford it. The
Nexus will put out just as much juice and the efficiency penalty is
chicken feed. If your front wheel was in need of replacement anyway - or
if you can sell the old front wheel - the build cost doesn't count for so
much.

And as for 6W; you'll think you need it until you ride with a properly
focused 3W lamp.

Quoted message said:

Most mail order places sell the NiteRider 10 Watt HeadTrip NiMH battery
powered light for $120. Before sales codes for 10% or 20% off at
Performance or Nashbar. I have this unit, as well as several other
NiteRider units. It runs for a bit over 2 hours. 10 Watts is more
light than 3 Watts or 6 Watts.

Technically 10W is more power input; I expect the output is more, but
you're neglecting to consider beam pattern and mounting position.

Also, for road riding, there comes a point where you can see where you are
going, and your headlight can be seen hundreds of feet away. What are you
going to do with more light after that?
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!

Tim McNamara says...

Quoted message said:

Malarkey. This is simply a perpetuation of the myth that a "good"
headlight is one that replicates full sun lighting conditions. This
actually makes it harder to see well at night by interfering with dark
adaptation of the retina. Close objects are overly bright with these
lights and dazzle the eye, much like looking into the headlights of an
oncoming car. I see better with my Schmidt hub with a 3W Lumotec Oval
lamp than I have ever seen with any of my high-powered battery lights.
Even descending at 40 mph on curvy roads is fine.

There's been many threads on this topic already.

Malarkey yourself. Less light is better? No light system replicates full
sunlight, or even a small fraction of it. If you ride in such remote
areas that you don't have competing light from street lights, houses,
cars or whatever, that's great. I'm sure your hub/light combo is very
nice. I would like to have one myself, but please spare us the looney
statements like less light is better.

Marty Wallace said:

At least at the coal fired generating plant they have precipitators
and scrubbers to remove the greenhouse gases before it goes up the
stack.

The scrubbers may take care of a lot of nasty things, but not the greenhouse
gases (CO2).

Matt O.

Super Slinky said:

Tim McNamara says...

Quoted message said:

Malarkey. This is simply a perpetuation of the myth that a "good"
headlight is one that replicates full sun lighting conditions. This
actually makes it harder to see well at night by interfering with
dark adaptation of the retina. Close objects are overly bright with
these lights and dazzle the eye, much like looking into the
headlights of an oncoming car. I see better with my Schmidt hub
with a 3W Lumotec Oval lamp than I have ever seen with any of my
high-powered battery lights. Even descending at 40 mph on curvy
roads is fine.

40 MPH? Come on. I live in some of the hilliest country imagineable, with >10%
grades all over the place. Rarely do I see 40 MPH. Even if I rode these roads
at night, I'd be on the brakes the whole time, no matter what lights I was
using.

Matt O.