Why low carb?

Bob (this one) said:

MMu wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

person needs some fat and lots of good carbs and of course

proteins.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

well put.

Quoted message said:

But not true. There is no demonstrated need in the human diet for
carbs. We can convert other macronutrients to use as fuels for our
biochemical processes. We like carbs, obviously, but they aren't
necessary as the other two - fat and protein - are.

Really?! Did you know your brain runs on carbs?

Patrick

Your brain can run on carbs. It can also run on ketones.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bob (this one) said:

MMu wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>person needs some fat and lots of good carbs and of course

proteins.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

well put.

Quoted message said:

But not true. There is no demonstrated need in the human diet for
carbs. We can convert other macronutrients to use as fuels for our
biochemical processes. We like carbs, obviously, but they aren't
necessary as the other two - fat and protein - are.

Really?! Did you know your brain runs on carbs?

Patrick

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:46:15 -0500, "Piezo Guru" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Your brain can run on carbs. It can also run on ketones.

uh huh. I would love to see a study comparing school performance on
the two. I suppose the ones running on ketones will have to drop out
of gym and sports.

I really don't understand how people can go from cutting out refined
carbs (good idea) to no carbs.

Quoted message said:

Bob (this one) said:

MMu wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>person needs some fat and lots of good carbs and of course

proteins.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

well put.

Quoted message said:

But not true. There is no demonstrated need in the human diet for
carbs. We can convert other macronutrients to use as fuels for our
biochemical processes. We like carbs, obviously, but they aren't
necessary as the other two - fat and protein - are.

Really?! Did you know your brain runs on carbs?

That's true, but they needn't have come from the diet. A big chunk of
the protein you eat each day ends up being converted to glucose to fuel
the brain. Some dietary carbs are a good idea as they prevent ketosis,
which is a bad thing long term, but only relatively small amounts are
needed to do that. Also it makes life easier for your body if some of
the more exotic sugars are provided ready-made in food rather than
having to be synthesized from glucose by the body.

MattLB

Quoted message said:

biochemical processes. We like carbs, obviously, but they aren't necessary
as the other two - fat and protein - are.

if so:
why does the body store carbohydrates then (glycogen in muscles, liver)?
why is performance in sports dropping significantly when those carbohydrates
are used up?
why do brain and the blood cells only run on glucose?
why are proteins glycosilated?
why does dna consist of a huge ammount of sugar (desoxyribose)?

you show me someone who consumes no carbohydrates at all perform equally as
well as someone who does in sports, school and at a health check up and i
say you are right.
otherwise very much speaks against that.

MMu said:

Quoted message said:

biochemical processes. We like carbs, obviously, but they aren't

necessary

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as the other two - fat and protein - are.

if so:
why does the body store carbohydrates then (glycogen in muscles,

liver)?

It stores it but it doesn't have to have access to huge amounts of
refined carbs to do so. The body can get carbs from meats and store
that. And the storage capacity of the body is less than 1% of body
weight. You don't need to eat 50% of your diet as carbs to overload the
storage capacity. And any excess *will* be converted and stored as FAT.
And while the body is overloaded with blood glucose and is struggling
to store or or rid itself of it, the high blood glucose will do all
kinds of damage to every cell in the body.

Recap: There ain't such a thing as too few carbs in the diet because
the body can create carbs from meats. Carb storage capacity is
relatively small so any excess carbs will be stored as fat a do real
damage on a cellular level.

Quoted message said:

why is performance in sports dropping significantly when those

carbohydrates

Quoted message said:

are used up?

It doesn't. If the body is allowed to adjust to a lower intake of carbs
and to adjust to using fats for energy, the energy available gives you
more stamina and a longer lasting energy. Carb energy is great for
sprints but crappy for long distance. Carbs will get you manic for a
couple of hours, fats will give you a good level of energy until the
mext meal.

Quoted message said:

why do brain and the blood cells only run on glucose?

Because it does. And the body can easily get plenty of this glucose
from foods other than modern refined high carb foods. High octane
refined white flour and sugars etc, are completely superfluous to a
healthy diet.

Quoted message said:

why are proteins glycosilated?

Why would it not? And what relevance does this have to this discussion.

Quoted message said:

why does dna consist of a huge ammount of sugar (desoxyribose)?

And how does adding massive amounts of refined carbs to the diet have
anything good to add to the dna? In the absence of refined carbs and in
the presence of real carb foods such as fresh produce and fruits we get
plenty of good naturally occurring sugars and other carbs to supply the
dna with the building blocks it needs.

Quoted message said:

you show me someone who consumes no carbohydrates at all perform

equally as

Quoted message said:

well as someone who does in sports, school and at a health check up

and i

Quoted message said:

say you are right.

You show me someone who consumes zero carbs and I'll be the first one
to call him an idiot. Same with someone who eats no proteins and/or no
fats.

On the other hand, I'll guaranttee you that someone who eats healthy
fresh food carbs will outperform anyone who eats huge amounts of
refined carbs anytime in any endeavour, whether physical or mental.

Quoted message said:

otherwise very much speaks against that.

Not really. You seem to fail to understand that no one is suggesting
eating no carbs. The whole idea behind low carb is to avoid refined,
manufactured, low-nutritional-value, high-GI, addictive carbs and
replace them with fresh, natural, low-GI, nutrition-packed, filling,
real-food carbs.

Even you can appreciate what this means, can't you?

TC

LC does not mean No Carbs.

"jt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:46:15 -0500, "Piezo Guru" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Your brain can run on carbs. It can also run on ketones.

uh huh. I would love to see a study comparing school performance on
the two. I suppose the ones running on ketones will have to drop out
of gym and sports.

I really don't understand how people can go from cutting out refined
carbs (good idea) to no carbs.

TC said:

MMu said:

Quoted message said:

biochemical processes. We like carbs, obviously, but they aren't
necessary as the other two - fat and protein - are.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if so:
why does the body store carbohydrates then (glycogen in muscles,
liver)?

Quoted message said:

It stores it but it doesn't have to have access to huge amounts of
refined carbs to do so.

Right! "refined carbs" Nobody is advocating eating huge amounts of
refined carbs. I for one avoid them whenever possible. But I eat tons
of complex carbs like whole grains, fruits, and veggies... it's all
good!

I snipped the rest of your post. Agree with me that eating "tons" of
meat, or just fruit and veggies is not an ideal diet. And agree an
ideal diet is a good balance and varied mix of fruits, veggies, grains,
diary, and meat.

I for one say heavy on the veggies, lots of fruit, some whole grains
and dairy, and a little meat.

I think we're both saying the same things, but for some reason are
arguing about it.

Patrick

Quoted message said:

TC said:

MMu said:

> biochemical processes. We like carbs, obviously, but they

aren't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> necessary as the other two - fat and protein - are.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if so:
why does the body store carbohydrates then (glycogen in muscles,
liver)?

Quoted message said:

It stores it but it doesn't have to have access to huge amounts of
refined carbs to do so.

Right! "refined carbs" Nobody is advocating eating huge amounts of
refined carbs. I for one avoid them whenever possible. But I eat

tons

Quoted message said:

of complex carbs like whole grains, fruits, and veggies... it's all
good!

I snipped the rest of your post. Agree with me that eating "tons"

of

Quoted message said:

meat, or just fruit and veggies is not an ideal diet. And agree an
ideal diet is a good balance and varied mix of fruits, veggies,

grains,

Quoted message said:

diary, and meat.

I for one say heavy on the veggies, lots of fruit, some whole grains
and dairy, and a little meat.

I disagree about the grains. I believe that the less the better.

As far a dairy goes, I kinda wonder about the value of what passes for
milk these days. It's all processed to death. But natural, organic,
unpasteurized milk is very, very healthy.

Quoted message said:

I think we're both saying the same things, but for some reason are
arguing about it.

Patrick

Yep, just coming at it from different angles.

TC

my reply was to the statement that carbs are not necessary; and this is
simply wrong.
how much carbs are necessary is an entirely different question-
not much, thats for sure and I don't object that.

Quoted message said:

It stores it but it doesn't have to have access to huge amounts of
refined carbs to do so.

i agree, but i did not mention refined carbs, I was simply speaking of
carbohydrates (vegetables, grains etc...).

Quoted message said:

The body can get carbs from meats and store that.

well, meat does also contain carbohydrates (glycogen for instance).

Quoted message said:

And the storage capacity of the body is less than 1% of body
weight. You don't need to eat 50% of your diet as carbs to overload the
storage capacity. And any excess *will* be converted and stored as FAT.

yes, i agree.
this is, however, true also for every other caloric (fat, protein, alcohol)
substance.. excess calories are being stored as fat under normal
physiological conditions.

Quoted message said:

And while the body is overloaded with blood glucose and is struggling
to store or or rid itself of it, the high blood glucose will do all
kinds of damage to every cell in the body.

even though this is not wrong it is taken out of context..
does chronic hyperglycemia damage the cells? certainly yes.

does someone who eats about 60% carbs (not simple sugars.. complex carbs)
from vegetable sources suffer from chronic hyperglycemia due to this diet?
i heavily doubt that.

if you believe otherwise please provide studies that say so.

Quoted message said:

why is performance in sports dropping significantly when those
carbohydrates
are used up?

Quoted message said:

It doesn't. If the body is allowed to adjust to a lower intake of carbs
and to adjust to using fats for energy, the energy available gives you
more stamina and a longer lasting energy. Carb energy is great for
sprints but crappy for long distance. Carbs will get you manic for a
couple of hours, fats will give you a good level of energy until the
mext meal.

this is not true.
heavy duty endurance sportsmen (like, lets say bicycle riders for the tour
de france) even do something called "glycogen loading" which is maximizing
glycogen levels in the body by eating excessive ammounts of carbohydrates
after a week of fasting.
also: sports drinks for endurance sports do not contain proteins or fat but
glucose or oligosaccharides as energy substrates.

Quoted message said:

You show me someone who consumes zero carbs and I'll be the first one
to call him an idiot. Same with someone who eats no proteins and/or no
fats.

well, we agree on that then.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, I'll guaranttee you that someone who eats healthy
fresh food carbs will outperform anyone who eats huge amounts of
refined carbs anytime in any endeavour, whether physical or mental.

i agree as well.

Quoted message said:

replace them with fresh, natural, low-GI, nutrition-packed, filling,
real-food carbs.
Even you can appreciate what this means, can't you?

well, if you carefully read my post you will see that i was replying to the
"carbs not needed by the body" part.
i am all against eating highly refined carbs and for consumption of
vegetables and full grains as main carbohydrate sources.

Where do people get the idea that dairy and grains are good for you?
I guess your mom told you and her mom told her and her mom told her.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TC said:

MMu said:

> biochemical processes. We like carbs, obviously, but they aren't
> necessary as the other two - fat and protein - are.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

if so:
why does the body store carbohydrates then (glycogen in muscles,
liver)?

Quoted message said:

It stores it but it doesn't have to have access to huge amounts of
refined carbs to do so.

Right! "refined carbs" Nobody is advocating eating huge amounts of
refined carbs. I for one avoid them whenever possible. But I eat tons
of complex carbs like whole grains, fruits, and veggies... it's all
good!

I snipped the rest of your post. Agree with me that eating "tons" of
meat, or just fruit and veggies is not an ideal diet. And agree an
ideal diet is a good balance and varied mix of fruits, veggies, grains,
diary, and meat.

I for one say heavy on the veggies, lots of fruit, some whole grains
and dairy, and a little meat.

I think we're both saying the same things, but for some reason are
arguing about it.

Patrick

MMu said:

Quoted message said:

The body can get carbs from meats and store that.

well, meat does also contain carbohydrates (glycogen for instance).

I'm not sure there's much glycogen left in meat since the dying muscle
cells will have used it up.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

why is performance in sports dropping significantly when those
carbohydrates
are used up?

Quoted message said:

It doesn't. If the body is allowed to adjust to a lower intake of

carbs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and to adjust to using fats for energy, the energy available gives

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more stamina and a longer lasting energy. Carb energy is great for
sprints but crappy for long distance. Carbs will get you manic for

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

couple of hours, fats will give you a good level of energy until

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

mext meal.

this is not true.
heavy duty endurance sportsmen (like, lets say bicycle riders for the

tour

Quoted message said:

de france) even do something called "glycogen loading" which is

maximizing

Quoted message said:

glycogen levels in the body by eating excessive ammounts of

carbohydrates

Quoted message said:

after a week of fasting.

Carb-loading still doesn't increase glycogens stores by that much. Most
of the muscle glycogen is there for the sprint at the end or going up
steep hills. Fat is used for "normal" cycling. It's only in situations
where oxygen can't be supplied to the muscles quickly enough that they
HAVE to use glycogen/glucose. This may be because it's an intense
sprint or it may be because someone is cardio-vascularly unfit.

Quoted message said:

also: sports drinks for endurance sports do not contain proteins or

fat but

Quoted message said:

glucose or oligosaccharides as energy substrates.

Yes, to go straight into the exercising muscles for immediate use.
Proteins and fats need to be processed first (including digestion)
which will be less efficient during exercise and take longer.

MattLB

"Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MMu said:

Quoted message said:

person needs some fat and lots of good carbs and of course proteins.

Quoted message said:

well put.

But not true. There is no demonstrated need in the human diet for
carbs. We can convert other macronutrients to use as fuels for our
biochemical processes. We like carbs, obviously, but they aren't
necessary as the other two - fat and protein - are.

If you believe fairy tale this then go on a protein and fat diet and
have zero carbs. I would suggest you keep your medical coverage paid up
cuz you going to need it. Look at the jerk that treid to eat Micky D's
for all his meals. Very little carbs and it damn near killed him. Good
god even the most basic basic nutrition test book will tell you how
wrong this is.
-DF

Doug Freese said:

"Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

MMu said:

>person needs some fat and lots of good carbs and of course proteins.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

well put.

But not true. There is no demonstrated need in the human diet for
carbs. We can convert other macronutrients to use as fuels for our
biochemical processes. We like carbs, obviously, but they aren't
necessary as the other two - fat and protein - are.

Quoted message said:

If you believe fairy tale this then go on a protein and fat diet and
have zero carbs. I would suggest you keep your medical coverage paid up
cuz you going to need it.

I would suggest you do a bit of reading on the subject before you
embarrass yourself like this.

Quoted message said:

Look at the jerk that treid to eat Micky D's
for all his meals. Very little carbs and it damn near killed him. Good
god even the most basic basic nutrition test book will tell you how
wrong this is.
-DF

Could this reply from you be more silly? When the chair of the Harvard
Medical School, Public Health Dept says it, it seems reasonable to
consider it. Walter Willett said it in a conference I attended and
offered a world of support for the statement.

As for what the idiot who only ate at McD's, those same results could
have come from any virtually restaurant experience where he paid no
attention to nutrient and caloric content of what he ate. For three
meals a day. It's a profoundly stupid thing to have done and only
proves how much of a fool he is.

And it's very interesting how you've decided (with no good information
or science to back it up) that his problem was that he didn't eat
enough carbs. This isn't just jumping to a conclusion, it's freakin
sky diving. Without a parachute.

Pastorio

Quoted message said:

Carb-loading still doesn't increase glycogens stores by that much. Most
of the muscle glycogen is there for the sprint at the end or going up
steep hills. Fat is used for "normal" cycling. It's only in situations
where oxygen can't be supplied to the muscles quickly enough that they
HAVE to use glycogen/glucose. This may be because it's an intense
sprint or it may be because someone is cardio-vascularly unfit.

at the end of the ride there will be practically no glycogen available in
the muscles to support sprints. marathon runners even have a special term
for when glycogen reserves are used up and the body is metabolizing only fat
instead ("the wall".)

its easy to explain as well:
burning of carbohydrates during exercise is equivalent to 5.0 calories for
every liter of oxygen consumed ie. breathed in -for fat its 4.7 calories per
one liter of oxygen.

if the average tour de france rider would be "cardio-vascularly unfit" then
I think we all should need huge ammounts of glycogen to just be able to
walk..

en.wikipedia.orgMarathon (sport)Open ↗

TC said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It stores it but it doesn't have to have access to huge amounts

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

refined carbs to do so.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Right! "refined carbs" Nobody is advocating eating huge amounts

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

refined carbs. I for one avoid them whenever possible. But I eat
tons of complex carbs like whole grains, fruits, and veggies...

it's all

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

good!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I snipped the rest of your post. Agree with me that eating "tons"
of meat, or just fruit and veggies is not an ideal diet. And agree

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ideal diet is a good balance and varied mix of fruits, veggies,
grains, diary, and meat.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I for one say heavy on the veggies, lots of fruit, some whole

grains

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and dairy, and a little meat.

Quoted message said:

I disagree about the grains. I believe that the less the better.

Where do you two get that from? (Please don't tell me the Hackins
diet.) There isn't one credible medical body that doesn't advocate
consumption of *whole* grains. Are you sure you're not confusing whole
grains with "enriched" white flour?

Quoted message said:

As far a dairy goes, I kinda wonder about the value of what passes

for

Quoted message said:

milk these days. It's all processed to death. But natural, organic,
unpasteurized milk is very, very healthy.

On paper, sounds like a better deal. However, knowing where cows live,
and how they live, you never know what could be on the tips of those
udders. You might just be getting a little more in your milk than you
bargin for, if you know what I mean? Besides, it's illegal to buy
unpasturized. So how would you get it? So no dairy for you then?

Oh, and on my list I forgot to add eating a hand-full of nuts and
seeds. (I love Brazil nuts!)

Patrick

Piezo Guru said:

Where do people get the idea that dairy and grains are good for you?
I guess your mom told you and her mom told her and her mom told her.

Oh, I don't know... every credible medical establishment. Where did
you get it that they are bad for us? From that con artist Atkins?

BTW, when are you going to post your typical daily diet? I'm very
curious.

Patrick

One thing I seldom eat are the products that have been baked after mixing
with bacteria and full of gas. (in attempt to break down some of the sugars
and fibre) after being pounded into powder and stored in containers for
month or years.

Ohhhh. But then you though corn was one of them because ***they*** told you
it was......LOL

I don't see you posting your life story here.....ohhhh..you did.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Piezo Guru said:

Where do people get the idea that dairy and grains are good for you?
I guess your mom told you and her mom told her and her mom told her.

Oh, I don't know... every credible medical establishment. Where did
you get it that they are bad for us? From that con artist Atkins?

BTW, when are you going to post your typical daily diet? I'm very
curious.

Patrick

I've been eating about 28 net carbs per day for 16 months and the health
benefits are palpable.

Very low carbs may be unnatural, but it works great. I just had to
supplement my potassium.

-almost no colds, my dental cavities stopped, my blood sugar went to normal,
my high blood pressure is gone, the dark areas under my eyes are gone, I
feel more energy

A recent urinalysis was flagged by the computer as abnormal due to high
ketones.

"jt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 23:46:15 -0500, "Piezo Guru" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Your brain can run on carbs. It can also run on ketones.

uh huh. I would love to see a study comparing school performance on
the two. I suppose the ones running on ketones will have to drop out
of gym and sports.

I really don't understand how people can go from cutting out refined
carbs (good idea) to no carbs.

In Supersizeme, you think he had very few carbs?

If you had seen the movie, they showed the equivalent to his sugar intake in
a giant container of sugar. IMHO it was the high carbs that made him sick.

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bob (this one)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

MMu said:

>person needs some fat and lots of good carbs and of course proteins.

Quoted message said:

well put.

But not true. There is no demonstrated need in the human diet for
carbs. We can convert other macronutrients to use as fuels for our
biochemical processes. We like carbs, obviously, but they aren't
necessary as the other two - fat and protein - are.

If you believe fairy tale this then go on a protein and fat diet and
have zero carbs. I would suggest you keep your medical coverage paid up
cuz you going to need it. Look at the jerk that treid to eat Micky D's
for all his meals. Very little carbs and it damn near killed him. Good
god even the most basic basic nutrition test book will tell you how
wrong this is.
-DF