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Why is the tdf getting shorter?

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Cycling Equipment
Published
6 July 2007
Last activity
11 July 2007
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Callistus Valerius
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  1. The tour de france is getting shorter all the time, consider this:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K
    2004 Lance Armstrong 83h 36m 02s 3391K
    2002 Lance Armstrong 82h 05m 12s 3278K
    1989 Greg LeMond 87h 38m 35s 3250K
    1988 Pedro Delgado 84h 27m 53s 3300K
    .. . . and then there were men
    1931 Antonin Magne 177h 10m 3s 5095
    1930 Andre Leducq 172h 12m 10s 4818
    1929 Maurice De Waele 186h 39m 16s 5286
    1928 Nicolas Frantz 192h 48m 58s 5377
    1927 Nicolas Frantz 198h 16m 42s 5348
    1926 Lucien Buysse Belgium 238h 44m 25s 5475
    1925 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 219h 10m 13s 5430
    1924 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 226h 18m 21s 5427
    1923 Henri Pelissier France 222h 15m 30s 5386
    1922 Firmin Lambot Belgium 222h 8m 6s 5378
    1921 Leon Scieur Belgium 221h 50m 0s 5484
    1920 Philippe Thys Belgium 228h 36m 0s 5503
    1919 Firmin Lambot Belgium 231h 7m 15s 5560
    * * * No Tour de France - World War I * * *
    1914 Philippe Thys Belgium 200h 28m 49s 5414
    1913 Philippe Thys Belgium 197h 54m 0s 5387
    1912 Odile Defraye Belgium 184h 50m 0s 5229
    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544
    ---------
    1911-1931 over 5000 K, around 200 hours
    After that it dropped to 4200 K around 120 hours.
    Now the modern era it's around 3300 K around 85 hours

    So as equipment has evolved, and technology has improved, it seem the race
    organizers have less confidence in the riders, as they make the race shorter
    and shorter to meet the lower standards of the modern rider. The iron-men
    of the 20's and 30's are long gone.

  2. Callistus Valerius said:

    The iron-men of the 20's and 30's are long gone.

    After 80 years, I would expect most of them to be dead too😉

    The difference between now and then is that today's racers are
    averaging 40+km/h compared to the 30km/h of the past era. That's quite
    a difference in output. I don't think very many people would be
    interested in watching a group of bikers pudding along at speeds most
    healthy people can easily attain themselves.

  3. Callistus Valerius said:

    The tour de france is getting shorter all the time, consider this:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K
    2004 Lance Armstrong 83h 36m 02s 3391K
    2002 Lance Armstrong 82h 05m 12s 3278K
    1989 Greg LeMond 87h 38m 35s 3250K
    1988 Pedro Delgado 84h 27m 53s 3300K
    . . . and then there were men
    1931 Antonin Magne 177h 10m 3s 5095
    1930 Andre Leducq 172h 12m 10s 4818
    1929 Maurice De Waele 186h 39m 16s 5286
    1928 Nicolas Frantz 192h 48m 58s 5377
    1927 Nicolas Frantz 198h 16m 42s 5348
    1926 Lucien Buysse Belgium 238h 44m 25s 5475
    1925 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 219h 10m 13s 5430
    1924 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 226h 18m 21s 5427
    1923 Henri Pelissier France 222h 15m 30s 5386
    1922 Firmin Lambot Belgium 222h 8m 6s 5378
    1921 Leon Scieur Belgium 221h 50m 0s 5484
    1920 Philippe Thys Belgium 228h 36m 0s 5503
    1919 Firmin Lambot Belgium 231h 7m 15s 5560
    * * * No Tour de France - World War I * * *
    1914 Philippe Thys Belgium 200h 28m 49s 5414
    1913 Philippe Thys Belgium 197h 54m 0s 5387
    1912 Odile Defraye Belgium 184h 50m 0s 5229
    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544
    ---------
    1911-1931 over 5000 K, around 200 hours
    After that it dropped to 4200 K around 120 hours.
    Now the modern era it's around 3300 K around 85 hours

    So as equipment has evolved, and technology has improved, it seem the race
    organizers have less confidence in the riders, as they make the race shorter
    and shorter to meet the lower standards of the modern rider. The iron-men
    of the 20's and 30's are long gone.

    The TdF is not the only race in a Pro's season.

    Lou
    --
    Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

  4. tiborg said:
    Quoted message said:

    The iron-men of the 20's and 30's are long gone.

    After 80 years, I would expect most of them to be dead too😉

    The difference between now and then is that today's racers are
    averaging 40+km/h compared to the 30km/h of the past era. That's quite
    a difference in output.

    Although I would bet that they draft more tightly and share the workload at
    the front more effectively than they did 80 years ago, too.

    Quoted message said:

    I don't think very many people would be
    interested in watching a group of bikers pudding along at speeds most
    healthy people can easily attain themselves.

    Well, in the early days I suppose the fact that the riders had to maintain
    that moderate pace for 14-15 hours at a time was impressive. These days
    the endurance aspect of the race is spread over many more days, so they
    can work harder at any given time if necessary.

  5. Entropy?

    R

  6. tiborg said:
    Callistus Valerius said:

    The iron-men of the 20's and 30's are long gone.

    After 80 years, I would expect most of them to be dead too😉

    The difference between now and then is that today's racers are
    averaging 40+km/h compared to the 30km/h of the past era. That's quite
    a difference in output. I don't think very many people would be
    interested in watching a group of bikers pudding along at speeds most
    healthy people can easily attain themselves.

    http://www.raceacrossamerica.com/

    P.S. It's a natural consequence of television coverage. Pre-TV, interest was sparked by newspaper stories, which can better represent tangible feats of endurance than subtle yet substantial differences in speed and power.

  7. Callistus Valerius said:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544

    Pretty weak troll if you ask me.

    in 1911 the average speed was ~28.4km/h and in 2006 it was ~41km/h
    Anyone that rides a bike must know the difference between these two
    speeds. Any Fred can do 28km/h

    Even the RAAMers can do that <g>

    Do the math... Shorter tours mean higher speeds and generally better
    television.

    Iron men my ass ....... sheesh.

    Bill

  8. Callistus Valerius said:

    The tour de france is getting shorter all the time, consider this:

    Quoted message said:

    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544

    wasn't this a mountainbike race on singlespeeds?
    [ducks]

    --
    /Marten

    info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

  9. Callistus Valerius said:

    So as equipment has evolved, and technology has improved, it seem the race
    organizers have less confidence in the riders, as they make the race shorter
    and shorter to meet the lower standards of the modern rider.

    No. What happened was that the early Tours were brutal endurance tests,
    often with riders finishing an excruciating 300+ km stage alone, or in
    small groups, minutes or hours apart. I doubt that there would be much
    interest in such an event now. It would be amusing, though, to return
    to the practice of requiring riders to make their own field repairs,
    including changing flats.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on
    no account be allowed to do the job.
    -- Douglas Adams

  10. David L. Johnson wrote:
    :: there would be much interest in such an event now. It would be
    :: amusing, though, to return to the practice of requiring riders to
    :: make their own field repairs, including changing flats.

    Amusing? Why? You like seeing people suffer needlessly?

  11. On Jul 6, 10:46 am, "David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    No. What happened was that the early Tours were brutal endurance tests,
    often with riders finishing an excruciating 300+ km stage alone, or in
    small groups, minutes or hours apart. I doubt that there would be much
    interest in such an event now. It would be amusing, though, to return
    to the practice of requiring riders to make their own field repairs,
    including changing flats.

    Does that include setting bones and carbon fiber repairs?

    "Oh my! Schleck is in trouble! He's run out of prepreg carbon fiber
    and has miscalculated his two-part ratio! I'm afraid that's the last
    we'll be seeing of poor Frank for this year's tour. There's simply no
    way for that to cure given the temperature and humidity conditions out
    on the parcourse today. He'll miss the cutoff for sure."

    R

  12. Roger Zoul said:

    David L. Johnson wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    there would be much interest in such an event now. It would be
    amusing, though, to return to the practice of requiring riders to
    make their own field repairs, including changing flats.

    Quoted message said:

    Amusing? Why? You like seeing people suffer needlessly?

    Trick question? <eg>

  13. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Callistus Valerius said:

    The tour de france is getting shorter all the time, consider this:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K
    2004 Lance Armstrong 83h 36m 02s 3391K
    2002 Lance Armstrong 82h 05m 12s 3278K
    1989 Greg LeMond 87h 38m 35s 3250K
    1988 Pedro Delgado 84h 27m 53s 3300K

    Actually, that's getting longer not shorter.

    Quoted message said:

    So as equipment has evolved, and technology has improved, it seem the
    race organizers have less confidence in the riders, as they make the
    race shorter and shorter to meet the lower standards of the modern
    rider. The iron-men of the 20's and 30's are long gone.

    The race has to fit into TV schedules. That would be the biggest
    driver, because that's what allows cycling to make billions of Euros a
    year.

  14. "William R. Mattil" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Callistus Valerius said:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544

    Pretty weak troll if you ask me.

    in 1911 the average speed was ~28.4km/h and in 2006 it was ~41km/h
    Anyone that rides a bike must know the difference between these two
    speeds. Any Fred can do 28km/h

    Even the RAAMers can do that <g>

    300 to 400 km a day on unasphalted roads and dirt roads in the mountains, on
    40 pound bicycles with no gear, making your own repairs and with nobody to
    hand you food or drinks? Any Fred can do that at 28km/h? I'm not so sure...

    Benjo

  15. RicodJour said:

    On Jul 6, 10:46 am, "David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    No. What happened was that the early Tours were brutal endurance tests,
    often with riders finishing an excruciating 300+ km stage alone, or in
    small groups, minutes or hours apart. I doubt that there would be much
    interest in such an event now. It would be amusing, though, to return
    to the practice of requiring riders to make their own field repairs,
    including changing flats.

    Does that include setting bones and carbon fiber repairs?

    It would be good seeing the riders use equipment that was actually designed to last. It would obsolete the silly weight rule.

    At the least, require the riders to use the same equipment in every stage, time trials included. The bike-du-jour syndrome is a bit like Adventure Racing: maximize the number of toys.

    Dan

  16. Dan Connelly said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    No. What happened was that the early Tours were brutal endurance
    tests, often with riders finishing an excruciating 300+ km stage
    alone, or in small groups, minutes or hours apart. I doubt that
    there would be much interest in such an event now. It would be
    amusing, though, to return to the practice of requiring riders to
    make their own field repairs, including changing flats.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Does that include setting bones and carbon fiber repairs?

    Quoted message said:

    It would be good seeing the riders use equipment that was actually
    designed to last. It would obsolete the silly weight rule.

    Quoted message said:

    At the least, require the riders to use the same equipment in every
    stage, time trials included. The bike-du-jour syndrome is a bit
    like Adventure Racing: maximize the number of toys.

    I prefer to have each team qualify a bicycle to be used for all its
    members and no other bicycle can be substituted for special events
    (TT, hill climb, etc). This is what you propose, I presume. The
    bicycle that emerges from such a rule might look substantially
    different from what we see today.

    The reason this doesn't occur is that bicycle manufacturers sponsor
    the event and use it to market their special equipment. It might be
    different if sponsors from the bicycle industry be banned, leaving it
    to food, drink, phone companies, computers, and the like.

    The length of the race is probably also a result of multi-media
    attention span. I'm sure this has been commercially researched.

    Jobst Brandt

  17. benjo maso said:

    "William R. Mattil" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Callistus Valerius said:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544


    Pretty weak troll if you ask me.

    in 1911 the average speed was ~28.4km/h and in 2006 it was ~41km/h
    Anyone that rides a bike must know the difference between these two
    speeds. Any Fred can do 28km/h

    Even the RAAMers can do that <g>

    300 to 400 km a day on unasphalted roads and dirt roads in the mountains, on
    40 pound bicycles with no gear, making your own repairs and with nobody to
    hand you food or drinks? Any Fred can do that at 28km/h? I'm not so sure...

    If Pantani had been on a 40lb bike instead of a 16 lb bike up L'Alpe, and he weighed 126 lb, and his equipment was 3 lb, then his 36-min L'Alpe would have been a 42-min L'Alpe.

    He still would have beaten me by 6 minutes, and that if I was totally fresh, I crudely estimate.

    That said, I don't think Tour bikes in the climbing era were ever 40 lb. Maybe 30lb.

    Dan

  18. benjo maso said:

    "William R. Mattil" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Callistus Valerius said:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K


    [snip]

    Quoted message said:

    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544


    Pretty weak troll if you ask me.

    in 1911 the average speed was ~28.4km/h and in 2006 it was ~41km/h
    Anyone that rides a bike must know the difference between these two
    speeds. Any Fred can do 28km/h

    Even the RAAMers can do that <g>

    300 to 400 km a day on unasphalted roads and dirt roads in the mountains, on
    40 pound bicycles with no gear, making your own repairs and with nobody to
    hand you food or drinks? Any Fred can do that at 28km/h? I'm not so sure...

    If Pantani had been on a 40lb bike instead of a 16 lb bike up L'Alpe, and he weighed 126 lb, and his equipment was 3 lb, then his 36-min L'Alpe would have been a 42-min L'Alpe.

    He still would have beaten me by 6 minutes, and that if I was totally fresh, I crudely estimate.

    That said, I don't think Tour bikes in the climbing era were ever 40 lb. Maybe 30lb.

    Dan

  19. Quoted message said:

    I prefer to have each team qualify a bicycle to be used for all its
    members and no other bicycle can be substituted for special events
    (TT, hill climb, etc). This is what you propose, I presume. The
    bicycle that emerges from such a rule might look substantially
    different from what we see today.

    The reason this doesn't occur is that bicycle manufacturers sponsor
    the event and use it to market their special equipment. It might be
    different if sponsors from the bicycle industry be banned, leaving it
    to food, drink, phone companies, computers, and the like.

    Kind of an inside-out way of looking at it. The reality (from my perspective
    as an insider of sorts at Trek) is that the team pushes the bike company
    very, very hard. The back story to the new Madone is amazing, but can't
    probably be told for a little while yet (as it involves politics and
    resources between the team and Trek).

    The days of the racer who's happy to ride on whatever he's given are, for
    the most part, gone. Back in the day it was just the top couple of guys
    (sometimes only one) on a team that got the cool stuff. There are still some
    riders who just don't care... "Put me on a bike, point me in the right
    direction and I'll do my job." But competition among the riders themselves,
    competition for a decent contract for the next year... that, too, is a force
    pushing the individual rider's desire to have the best-possible equipment.

    I don't think Trek really cares that much about making TT bikes from a
    business standpoint (there's very little money in them, and way too much
    effort). Trek cares about having their name shown on TV, in newspapers, and
    magazine covers. It doesn't matter what type of bike it is. They're going to
    make lots more money selling standard road bikes to a whole lot of people
    than they will anything else. And the average person, seeing a photo of a TT
    bike, doesn't have any better feeling about buying a Trek than he or she
    would seeing a photo of that same athlete on a standard road bike. Could
    even be the opposite.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

    <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Dan Connelly said:
    Quoted message said:

    > No. What happened was that the early Tours were brutal endurance
    > tests, often with riders finishing an excruciating 300+ km stage
    > alone, or in small groups, minutes or hours apart. I doubt that
    > there would be much interest in such an event now. It would be
    > amusing, though, to return to the practice of requiring riders to
    > make their own field repairs, including changing flats.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Does that include setting bones and carbon fiber repairs?

    Quoted message said:

    It would be good seeing the riders use equipment that was actually
    designed to last. It would obsolete the silly weight rule.

    Quoted message said:

    At the least, require the riders to use the same equipment in every
    stage, time trials included. The bike-du-jour syndrome is a bit
    like Adventure Racing: maximize the number of toys.

    I prefer to have each team qualify a bicycle to be used for all its
    members and no other bicycle can be substituted for special events
    (TT, hill climb, etc). This is what you propose, I presume. The
    bicycle that emerges from such a rule might look substantially
    different from what we see today.

    The reason this doesn't occur is that bicycle manufacturers sponsor
    the event and use it to market their special equipment. It might be
    different if sponsors from the bicycle industry be banned, leaving it
    to food, drink, phone companies, computers, and the like.

    The length of the race is probably also a result of multi-media
    attention span. I'm sure this has been commercially researched.

    Jobst Brandt

  20. Callistus Valerius said:

    The tour de france is getting shorter all the time, consider this:

    2006 Floyd Landis 89h 39m 30s 3639K
    2004 Lance Armstrong 83h 36m 02s 3391K
    2002 Lance Armstrong 82h 05m 12s 3278K
    1989 Greg LeMond 87h 38m 35s 3250K
    1988 Pedro Delgado 84h 27m 53s 3300K
    . . . and then there were men
    1931 Antonin Magne 177h 10m 3s 5095
    1930 Andre Leducq 172h 12m 10s 4818
    1929 Maurice De Waele 186h 39m 16s 5286
    1928 Nicolas Frantz 192h 48m 58s 5377
    1927 Nicolas Frantz 198h 16m 42s 5348
    1926 Lucien Buysse Belgium 238h 44m 25s 5475
    1925 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 219h 10m 13s 5430
    1924 Ottavio Bottecchia Italy 226h 18m 21s 5427
    1923 Henri Pelissier France 222h 15m 30s 5386
    1922 Firmin Lambot Belgium 222h 8m 6s 5378
    1921 Leon Scieur Belgium 221h 50m 0s 5484
    1920 Philippe Thys Belgium 228h 36m 0s 5503
    1919 Firmin Lambot Belgium 231h 7m 15s 5560
    * * * No Tour de France - World War I * * *
    1914 Philippe Thys Belgium 200h 28m 49s 5414
    1913 Philippe Thys Belgium 197h 54m 0s 5387
    1912 Odile Defraye Belgium 184h 50m 0s 5229
    1911 Gustave Garrigou France 195h 35m 25s 5544
    ---------
    1911-1931 over 5000 K, around 200 hours
    After that it dropped to 4200 K around 120 hours.
    Now the modern era it's around 3300 K around 85 hours

    So as equipment has evolved, and technology has improved, it seem the race
    organizers have less confidence in the riders, as they make the race shorter
    and shorter to meet the lower standards of the modern rider. The iron-men
    of the 20's and 30's are long gone.

    Because watching ultra-distance sports is BORING AS HELL.

    Greg
    --
    http://ticketmastersucks.org

    Le Petite Dejeuner au Tour de Farce:
    http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=6131132

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