Why is Armstorn so foolish?

M. Wehrmann said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Why should he work for Ullrich if Ullrich was willingly to take the lead by himself and control the
loss of time to Vino?

Remeber Armstrong is still suffering from a serious fallback He has to recover, before the Pyrenees
are done. Only then he can win the last ITT.

Groet, Arne Vogel

M. Wehrmann said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Because he wasn't strong enough to do it? Anyway, we'll only see tomorrow wether he really has to
fight against two riders. As it stands, he would control Wino in the ITT. If Wino takes the jersey
in Luz though, it'll be tough for Lance.

Gerrit

Vino is only a threat if he gets ahead as he doesn't have the ability to beat both Jan and Lance in
the final INDIVIDUAL time trial. Lance knew that Jan would not let Vino get enough time to get
ahead, so why waste your own energy when you can let someone else do the work.

"M. Wehrmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Now Vino is in the game and foolish Lance has to fight against two.

No chance for LA - but third in Paris isn't that bad at all.

Manuel

"M. Wehrmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Now Vino is in the game and foolish Lance has to fight against two.

No chance for LA - but third in Paris isn't that bad at all.

Now Ullrich has to watch Vino like a hawk. All Lance has to do is hang on to Ullrich tomorrow. I'd
play poker against you any time.

M. Wehrmann said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Because he certainly couldn't. You must have missed the top of the climb when Armstrong rushed to
the front to lead in the descent where he's generally faster than Ullrich. It was actually fairly
moving to see him "pay back" Ullrich. Nice spirit.

Quoted message said:

Now Vino is in the game and foolish Lance has to fight against two.

No chance for LA - but third in Paris isn't that bad at all.

Manuel

I was quite clear.

Neither Jan nor Lance could. They were just praying Vino would not put a couple of minutes
more on them.

Personally I am fed up with the Jan-Lance duel and how they cope 100% attention. It took Alpe d'huez
to take the mask off Armstrong. Today Jan was also exposed. Personally I think that if Beloki had
stayed around we would be talking about a different leader and Lance and Jan fighting for podium 😉

Tomorrow we have to see attacks. Yummy!!! If I were the Telekom manager I would be talking right now
with Euskatel (or directly to Mayo or Zubeldia?).

The last TT is not so selective as the first one, and being an specialist is not going mattter that
much. I think Vino can win the tour if he stays clear 1 min from Lance and Jan.

"M. Wehrmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Now Vino is in the game and foolish Lance has to fight against two.

No chance for LA - but third in Paris isn't that bad at all.

Manuel

Tom Kunich said:

"M. Wehrmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Now Vino is in the game and foolish Lance has to fight against two.

No chance for LA - but third in Paris isn't that bad at all.

Now Ullrich has to watch Vino like a hawk. All Lance has to do is hang on to Ullrich tomorrow. I'd
play poker against you any time.

Really? Why should Ullrich watch Vino? He took 2 minutes out of him in the last ITT.

Keith said:

M. Wehrmann said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Because he certainly couldn't. You must have missed the top of the climb when Armstrong rushed to
the front to lead in the descent where he's generally faster than Ullrich. It was actually fairly
moving to see him "pay back" Ullrich. Nice spirit.

Exactly. Two great champions.

Gerrit

Vino can't touch either in the last TT. Neither Lance nor Yan will risk cracking and losing time on
each other. Yan is not going to protect a second place position. agains Vino. His race is with
Armstrong. If Vino threatens Jan he also threatens Lance. Its a mexican stand off with Jan and
Lance. They both will have to contain Vino when the time comes. Poor Vino doesnt really stand a
chance when he treatens those two. I dont know what they are willing to give him but It wont be much
more. The worst for Jan and Lance would be to crack and lose a lot of time against each other. Let
Vino gain time, he will lose it all in the final TT if it comes to that .

Irrationally held truths may be more harmfull than reasoned errors. "Alex Beascoechea"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was quite clear.

Neither Jan nor Lance could. They were just praying Vino would not put a couple of minutes more
on them.

Personally I am fed up with the Jan-Lance duel and how they cope 100% attention. It took Alpe
d'huez to take the mask off Armstrong. Today Jan

was

Quoted message said:

also exposed. Personally I think that if Beloki had stayed around we would be talking about a
different leader and Lance and Jan fighting for podium

😉

Quoted message said:

Tomorrow we have to see attacks. Yummy!!! If I were the Telekom manager I would be talking right
now with Euskatel (or directly to Mayo or

Zubeldia?).

Quoted message said:

The last TT is not so selective as the first one, and being an specialist

is

Quoted message said:

not going mattter that much. I think Vino can win the tour if he stays

clear

Quoted message said:

1 min from Lance and Jan.

"M. Wehrmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Now Vino is in the game and foolish Lance has to fight against two.

No chance for LA - but third in Paris isn't that bad at all.

Manuel

Keith said:

M. Wehrmann said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Because he certainly couldn't. You must have missed the top of the climb when Armstrong rushed to
the front to lead in the descent where he's generally faster than Ullrich. It was actually fairly
moving to see him "pay back" Ullrich. Nice spirit.

Lance had just had enough cyclocross for this summer.

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"M. Wehrmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Now Vino is in the game and foolish Lance has to fight against two.

No chance for LA - but third in Paris isn't that bad at all.

Now Ullrich has to watch Vino like a hawk. All Lance has to do is hang on to Ullrich tomorrow. I'd
play poker against you any time.

No. Vino is the least dangerous because 1) he is the weakest against the clock 2) he is
lowest on GC.

Jan is the most dangerous because of the 3, only he should feel comfortable going in to the TT with
no additional changes to GC.

Also, if Vino gets away, Lance and Jan should work together so that they can dispute the GC during
the ITT rather than have them both lose by watching him go away.

Istead of what you wrote, I would say:

Now Lance has to watch Ullrich like a hawk. All Ullrich has to do is hang on to Lance tomorrow.

I'd play poker against you any time.

Tom Kunich said:

"M. Wehrmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Now Vino is in the game and foolish Lance has to fight against two.

No chance for LA - but third in Paris isn't that bad at all.

Now Ullrich has to watch Vino like a hawk. All Lance has to do is hang on to Ullrich tomorrow. I'd
play poker against you any time.

I think Ullrich is looking ahead, not behind. All eyes are on the maillot jaune.

It doesn't matter. If you expect to be the strongest rider in the mountains and/or ITT, it doesn't
really matter how many competitors you have and how close they are, unless they're on the same team.

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

Gerrit Stolte <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

M. Wehrmann said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Because he wasn't strong enough to do it? Anyway, we'll only see tomorrow wether he really has to
fight against two riders. As it stands, he would control Wino in the ITT. If Wino takes the jersey
in Luz though, it'll be tough for Lance.

I agree, but what I don't understand is why Ullrich does not take a flyer with a late breakaway with
a rider like Simoni.

Quoted message said:

Gerrit

"Heinz Getzler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gerrit Stolte <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

M. Wehrmann said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Because he wasn't strong enough to do it? Anyway, we'll only see tomorrow wether he really has
to fight against two riders. As it stands, he would control Wino in the ITT. If Wino takes the
jersey in Luz though, it'll be tough for Lance.

I agree, but what I don't understand is why Ullrich does not take a flyer with a late breakaway
with a rider like Simoni.

He thinks he can win the TdF in the TT.

"Heinz Getzler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gerrit Stolte <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

M. Wehrmann said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Because he wasn't strong enough to do it? Anyway, we'll only see tomorrow wether he really has
to fight against two riders. As it stands, he would control Wino in the ITT. If Wino takes the
jersey in Luz though, it'll be tough for Lance.

I agree, but what I don't understand is why Ullrich does not take a flyer with a late breakaway
with a rider like Simoni.

Quoted message said:

Gerrit

Yeah, that will work. I am sure no one will be looking.

"Scott Downie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Vino can't touch either in the last TT. Neither Lance nor Yan will risk cracking and losing time
on each other. Yan is not going to protect a second place position. agains Vino. His race is with
Armstrong. If Vino threatens Jan he also threatens Lance. Its a mexican stand off with Jan and
Lance. They both will have to contain Vino when the time comes. Poor Vino doesnt really stand a
chance when he treatens those two. I dont know what they are willing to give him but It wont be
much more. The worst for Jan and Lance would be to crack and lose a lot of time against each
other. Let Vino gain time, he will lose it all in the final TT if it comes to that .

Hmmm...The 2nd ITT is less demanding, hence there will be less of an opportunity for Jan (or
Lance) to gain time against Vinokourov--or against each other, for that matter.

However, 15 seconds is hardly a sufficient margin for Lance to have against Ullrich. Obviously,
Luz Ardiden is the last chance for any of the 3, not to mention Mayo and Zubeida, to make a
major attack to gain time.

The 15th stage ends on the summit, and perhaps Lance's team is hoping that he will be able to
make a move that the others can't cover. Given that Lance has not been able to do so in any of
the mountain stages, I won't hold my breath. If LA doesn't even try to shake Ullrich, then I
think that things will be grim for him in trying to hold Ullrich off in the final ITT.

I think that Lance and Jan will be a the front of the stage tomorrow, and I expect that they
will win some of the time bonuses given out to the stage leaders.

It would be a grave mistake for Lance to let the Basque riders go for the stage win. If he makes
that concession, he'll be reduced to pretty much marking Jan on the final climb, and he'd be
fortunate not to surrender the Yellow Jersey to Vino.

Perhaps Ullrich has shown some vulnerability, as today would have been the most logical stage
for him to try to drop Lance. Perhaps he is simply hoping that he can prevail in the ITT, and
that Lance won't recover his form. Certain, the bookies think that is the most likely scenario.

If Armstrong doesn't gain time tomorrow, then it all comes down to whether he can fully recover
his form for the ITT this Saturday, after the Rest day Tuesday, and the subsequent sprint
stages. As is evident from his Prologue result, Armstrong hasn't had great form in any stage of
the race. He'd be unlikely to suddenly find it the next to last day.

So many permutations, so fascinating.

Quoted message said:

Irrationally held truths may be more harmfull than reasoned errors. "Alex Beascoechea"
<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I was quite clear.

Neither Jan nor Lance could. They were just praying Vino would not put a couple of minutes more
on them.

Personally I am fed up with the Jan-Lance duel and how they cope 100% attention. It took Alpe
d'huez to take the mask off Armstrong. Today Jan

was

Quoted message said:

also exposed. Personally I think that if Beloki had stayed around we would be talking about a
different leader and Lance and Jan fighting for podium

😉

I'm not sure Beloki knows how to win. After all, he didn't make any dramatic attacks
in the Alps.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tomorrow we have to see attacks. Yummy!!! If I were the Telekom manager I would be talking right
now with Euskatel (or directly to Mayo or

Zubeldia?).

Quoted message said:

The last TT is not so selective as the first one, and being an specialist

is

Quoted message said:

not going mattter that much. I think Vino can win the tour if he stays

clear

Quoted message said:

1 min from Lance and Jan.

"M. Wehrmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why didArmstrong nto work together with Ullrich the road up to the last plateau?

Now Vino is in the game and foolish Lance has to fight against two.

No chance for LA - but third in Paris isn't that bad at all.

Manuel

Keith said:

<snip> Armstrong rushed to the front to lead in the descent where he's generally faster than
Ullrich. It was actually fairly moving to see him "pay back" Ullrich. Nice spirit.

I reckon it was pure self-interest (not that I blame him). Ullrich has shown incredibly poor
descending skills in the past and Lance didn't want to be held up by him (or worse, forced into
another x-country jaunt as another poster said).

&roo

Quoted message said:

I reckon it was pure self-interest (not that I blame him). Ullrich has shown incredibly poor
descending skills in the past and Lance didn't want to be held up by him (or worse, forced into
another x-country jaunt as another poster said).

Yes, alhtough Ullrich is still a better descender than most cyclists in the world...;-)

It was in his interest, but still it shows a positive attitude that Jan must have appreciated.

Quoted message said:

&roo