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Why I hate bike shops II

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UK and Europe
Published
28 April 2005
Last activity
3 May 2005
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Paul D
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  1. This one's a quickie.

    A couple of years ago, after my trusty BIKE bike gave up the ghost, I went into
    my LBS. At the time I knew nothing much about the different types of bike. Just
    knew I wanted something a bit lighter, a bit stronger, and with a better range
    of gears.

    "I'd like to buy a bike", quoth I.

    Yes, we have those, he replied, pointing to some racks of what certainly
    appeared to fit the specification I had given him.

    He asked no questions about whether I needed any help, and being totaly
    ignorant, I just picked the only flat handlbar bike that was in my price range
    and appeared to have some suspension (which I wanted to protect the _bike_, not
    for comfort - a mistaken purchase I later found out, although it's nice and
    stiff and doesn't seem to detract from road use {as far as I caan tell, that
    is}).

    I wasn't offered a test ride, and the only fitting that was done was to raise
    the saddle a an inch or so (it was still far too low, and the bike is much too
    small for me - again something I didn't realise - I thought that saddle and
    handlebar adjustments took care of things).

    I paid the money ~£220 IIRC, and came back about 15 mins later after it had been
    'prepared'.

    Now, I know that I should have done some research first, but I simply never
    realised that there were so many different kinds of bike. I just had no idea how
    much I didn't know, and assumed that if you wanted a better bike, you simply
    paid more and voila.

    Now, who thinks that I got adequate service from that bike shop?

    Knowing that was the experience I'd had, who would send a neophyte there to buy
    a bike?

    Or was it all my fault?

  2. (Paul D) said:

    This one's a quickie.

    A couple of years ago, after my trusty BIKE bike gave up the ghost,
    I went into my LBS. At the time I knew nothing much about the
    different types of bike. Just knew I wanted something a bit lighter,
    a bit stronger, and with a better range of gears.

    "I'd like to buy a bike", quoth I.

    Yes, we have those, he replied, pointing to some racks of what
    certainly appeared to fit the specification I had given him.

    He asked no questions about whether I needed any help, and being
    totaly ignorant, I just picked the only flat handlbar bike that was
    in my price range and appeared to have some suspension (which I
    wanted to protect the _bike_, not for comfort - a mistaken purchase
    I later found out, although it's nice and stiff and doesn't seem to
    detract from road use {as far as I caan tell, that is}).

    I wasn't offered a test ride, and the only fitting that was done was
    to raise the saddle a an inch or so (it was still far too low, and
    the bike is much too small for me - again something I didn't realise
    - I thought that saddle and handlebar adjustments took care of
    things).

    I paid the money ~£220 IIRC, and came back about 15 mins later after
    it had been 'prepared'.

    Now, I know that I should have done some research first, but I
    simply never realised that there were so many different kinds of
    bike. I just had no idea how much I didn't know, and assumed that if
    you wanted a better bike, you simply paid more and voila.

    Now, who thinks that I got adequate service from that bike shop?

    Knowing that was the experience I'd had, who would send a neophyte
    there to buy a bike?

    Or was it all my fault?

    Do you want everyone else to be at fault for your one bad purchase? You
    certainly seem to have an attitude problem.

    Chris
    --
    Chris Eilbeck

  3. On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:55:54 +0100, Chris Eilbeck <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Do you want everyone else to be at fault for your one bad purchase? You
    certainly seem to have an attitude problem.

    What exactly is the problem with my attitude?

    Do you think I should have been lauding them for good service?

    Do you think I should not be trying to do research to ensure that the same
    problem doesn't occur again?

    Many people have said I should go to a bike shop and try bikes out. I'm simply
    pointing out that if you just put your faith in the competance of a bike shop,
    you can be badly let down.

    Please explain the problem you have with my attitude- you don't own a bike shop
    do you 😉

  4. (Paul D) said:

    On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:55:54 +0100, Chris Eilbeck <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Do you want everyone else to be at fault for your one bad purchase?
    You certainly seem to have an attitude problem.

    What exactly is the problem with my attitude?

    Everyone else is at fault!

    Quoted message said:

    Do you think I should have been lauding them for good service?

    Well I wouldn't have bought it without riding it first.

    Quoted message said:

    Do you think I should not be trying to do research to ensure that
    the same problem doesn't occur again?

    You're very defensive about people questioning your knowledge of
    things and very aggressive towards people who won't give you accurate
    answers like "why is this frame better than that". If you're the same
    in person I'm not surprised people who shops wouldn't want to put
    themselves out.

    Quoted message said:

    Many people have said I should go to a bike shop and try bikes
    out. I'm simply pointing out that if you just put your faith in the
    competance of a bike shop, you can be badly let down.

    Is this the same bike shop you were running down earlier?

    Quoted message said:

    Please explain the problem you have with my attitude- you don't own
    a bike shop do you 😉

    I don't own a bike shop and apart from changing to road tyres on my
    mtb recently I rarely go in bike shops. I'm not an obsessive cyclist,
    I just ride my bike sometimes and enjoy it.

    Chris
    --
    Chris Eilbeck
    MARS Flight Crew http://www.mars.org.uk/
    UKRA #1108 Level 2 UYB
    Tripoli UK Member #9527 LSMR

  5. Paul D said:

    On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:55:54 +0100, Chris Eilbeck <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Do you want everyone else to be at fault for your one bad purchase? You
    certainly seem to have an attitude problem.

    What exactly is the problem with my attitude?

    Do you think I should have been lauding them for good service?

    Do you think I should not be trying to do research to ensure that the same
    problem doesn't occur again?

    Many people have said I should go to a bike shop and try bikes out. I'm simply
    pointing out that if you just put your faith in the competance of a bike shop,
    you can be badly let down.

    Please explain the problem you have with my attitude- you don't own a bike shop
    do you 😉

    Reading what you've sent so far it seems possible you have an unusual
    expectation that bike shop staff should be psychic. You asked to see a
    bikes, you were shown bikes. You said you wanted to buy one, you were
    sold one. It's not that bad. If you'd gone in and said "I'd like some
    advice about what sort of bike is best for what I have in mind" you
    might have got what you wanted, which was advice. You didn't ask so you
    didn't get. So why blame the shop?

    --
    Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

  6. On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:33:53 +0100, Chris Eilbeck <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What exactly is the problem with my attitude?

    Everyone else is at fault!

    What do you believe I'm at fault for, and I am trying to shift the blame to
    others.

    There's nothing unusual about someone moaning about faults that have been a
    problem to them. It's only if they try to shift the blame for their own faults
    to others that it becomes an 'attitude problem'.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Do you think I should have been lauding them for good service?

    Well I wouldn't have bought it without riding it first.

    No, because you were aware that that was a good idea. But given that its tyres
    were flat at the time, and I wasn't offered a test ride, I sort of assumed it
    wasn't necessary.

    OK, so that was my fault.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Do you think I should not be trying to do research to ensure that
    the same problem doesn't occur again?

    You're very defensive about people questioning your knowledge of
    things

    If you had people repeatedly telling you you were confused about gearing, when
    the logic behind it is so simple a child of eight should be able to understand
    it, you might become defensive.

    Particularly since the assumed confusion caused people to keep recommending a
    bike that I knew perfectly well was incorrectly geared for my needs.

    Quoted message said:

    and very aggressive towards people who won't give you accurate
    answers like "why is this frame better than that".

    That isn't agression, it's frustration.

    The cycle:

    Me: I'm thinking of buying X
    Other: Y has a better frame than X
    Me: In what way
    Other: It's nicer
    Me: what do you mean by nicer
    Other: You have to ride it to know
    Me: But what should I be looking for
    Other: It's a nicer frame

    does tend to make one a little frustrated.

    Quoted message said:

    If you're the same
    in person I'm not surprised people who shops wouldn't want to put
    themselves out.

    Well, he didn't even have the chance to find out, since the whole transaction
    was little different to buying a loaf of bread.

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    Many people have said I should go to a bike shop and try bikes
    out. I'm simply pointing out that if you just put your faith in the
    competance of a bike shop, you can be badly let down.

    Is this the same bike shop you were running down earlier?

    How do I know which bike shop they mean?

    And I simply gave a factual account of what happened.

    If you believe that what I said runs it down, then you must presumably agree
    with me that the service left something to be desired.

    Or, if you'd just paid £64 for a repair job, would you be happy to find that the
    bike, in the state handed over, was not useable, and would you have been singing
    their praises.

    Quoted message said:

    Chris Eilbeck
    MARS Flight Crew

    Ah-ha, I see you're a space cadet 😉

  7. JLB said:

    Reading what you've sent so far it seems possible you have an unusual
    expectation that bike shop staff should be psychic. You asked to see a
    bikes, you were shown bikes. You said you wanted to buy one, you were
    sold one. It's not that bad. If you'd gone in and said "I'd like some
    advice about what sort of bike is best for what I have in mind" you
    might have got what you wanted, which was advice. You didn't ask so you
    didn't get. So why blame the shop?

    I think you're correct there to a degree.

    If I'd realised the complexities involved, I probably would have.

    But being someone who just enjoys cycling and is not an "enthusiast" as such,
    I'd never read magazines, or Usenet or Forums, and just didn't realise.

    I simply thought they'd get better as you paid more.

    I did say to the guy that I was getting it because my old one had broken its
    spokes and wanted something stronger since the roads round our way are a bit on
    the poor side (or is that just my attitude problem), but it was more being
    chatty as told him which bike I'd like.

    I would have thought he could have mentioned that what I had selected was an
    MTB, and not optimum for road usage.

    Since most people ride their bikes on the roads, I would have thought any bike
    salesman would mention that fact to buyers since I'm sure I'm not the only
    person who didn't realise that an MTB is not just a tougher version of a road
    bike.

  8. Paul D said:


    Many people have said I should go to a bike shop and try bikes out.
    I'm simply pointing out that if you just put your faith in the
    competance of a bike shop, you can be badly let down.

    So why don't you answer the question asked earlier and tell us where you
    live so we can suggest some good bike shops for you?

    --
    Tony

    "A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
    Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

  9. Tony Raven said:
    Paul D said:


    Many people have said I should go to a bike shop and try bikes out.
    I'm simply pointing out that if you just put your faith in the
    competance of a bike shop, you can be badly let down.

    So why don't you answer the question asked earlier and tell us where you
    live so we can suggest some good bike shops for you?

    Sorry, Canterbury area.

  10. (Paul D) said:

    On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:33:53 +0100, Chris Eilbeck <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What exactly is the problem with my attitude?

    Everyone else is at fault!

    What do you believe I'm at fault for, and I am trying to shift the
    blame to others.

    Well you bought a bike that wasn't what you wanted and you seem to
    think this is because of the treatment you got in the bike shop.

    Quoted message said:

    There's nothing unusual about someone moaning about faults that have
    been a problem to them. It's only if they try to shift the blame for
    their own faults to others that it becomes an 'attitude problem'.

    Oh everyone likes a moan sometimes.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Do you think I should have been lauding them for good service?

    Well I wouldn't have bought it without riding it first.

    No, because you were aware that that was a good idea. But given that
    its tyres were flat at the time, and I wasn't offered a test ride, I
    sort of assumed it wasn't necessary.

    I wouldn't buy a car without a test drive, I wouldn't buy hifi without
    hearing it, I wouldn't buy a telly without seeing the picture on it.
    200 quid is a non-trivial amount even if it's a low-end bike.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    You're very defensive about people questioning your knowledge of
    things

    If you had people repeatedly telling you you were confused about
    gearing, when the logic behind it is so simple a child of eight
    should be able to understand it, you might become defensive.

    It might be a simple concept but even though I can do the calcs I
    don't know what's available, what's applicable for what applications
    etc.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and very aggressive towards people who won't give you accurate
    answers like "why is this frame better than that".

    That isn't agression, it's frustration.

    The cycle:

    Me: I'm thinking of buying X
    Other: Y has a better frame than X
    Me: In what way
    Other: It's nicer
    Me: what do you mean by nicer
    Other: You have to ride it to know
    Me: But what should I be looking for
    Other: It's a nicer frame

    does tend to make one a little frustrated.

    It's a subjective thing!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Many people have said I should go to a bike shop and try bikes
    out. I'm simply pointing out that if you just put your faith in
    the competance of a bike shop, you can be badly let down.

    Is this the same bike shop you were running down earlier?

    How do I know which bike shop they mean?

    I meant did you go back to the same bike shop that gave you bad
    service to have your bike serviced and it turned out not to your
    satisfaction?

    Quoted message said:

    And I simply gave a factual account of what happened.

    If you believe that what I said runs it down, then you must
    presumably agree with me that the service left something to be
    desired.

    It sounded like from your point of view the service wasn't what you
    desired. I have no way of knowing where there's another underlying
    fault, whether the equipment they fitted is rubbish or whether they
    are a bunch of incompetent [censored].

    Quoted message said:

    Or, if you'd just paid £64 for a repair job, would you be happy to
    find that the bike, in the state handed over, was not useable, and
    would you have been singing their praises.

    I'd be unhappy and would have gone back to the shop and asked them to
    sort things out.

    Quoted message said:

    Ah-ha, I see you're a space cadet 😉

    So I fly a rocket once in a while, I can handle it...

    Chris
    --
    Chris Eilbeck

  11. "Paul D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I would have thought he could have mentioned that what I had selected was


    an

    Quoted message said:

    MTB, and not optimum for road usage.

    You could have determined the gearing problem for yourself if you had
    counted the teeth on the gears and compared to what they were on the
    previous bike. Never mind, you've learned from this mistake and will correct
    it for your next purchase. Ditto re test ride.

    (Out of interest, had the bike shop pointed you to a fixed wheel track bike
    and said "that's what you want", would you have believed them?)

    One thing you may wish to consider is that there is a vague correlation
    between quality of stock and knowledge/experience of staff. Ie go to the
    expensive shops for advice.

    cheers,
    clive

  12. On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:34:32 +0100, Chris Eilbeck <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Well you bought a bike that wasn't what you wanted and you seem to
    think this is because of the treatment you got in the bike shop.

    I accept that I was partly to blame, but I feel that the lack of proactive
    assistance from the shop doesn't auger well.

    As I said I didn't realise how much I didn't know, and I can't see why I'm
    likely to be unique in that.

    Put it another way. I've been trying to research as much as I can, but there may
    be some quite important attribute I've missed (especially as I'm now thinking of
    spending £4-500). If I can't rely on the bike shop staff to make me aware that
    there may be some choice I didn't realise I had (such as the gearing options,
    size, and front suspension on the last bike), then what is to stop me finding
    out a few months down the line that I've made anoter bad purchase.

    And in no way should the guy have sold me a bike that was obviously far too
    small for me.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Do you think I should have been lauding them for good service?

    Well I wouldn't have bought it without riding it first.

    So yu said, and I agree that I should have done so, but I didn't realise the
    importance of that at the time.

    Quoted message said:

    It might be a simple concept but even though I can do the calcs I
    don't know what's available, what's applicable for what applications
    etc.

    Irrelevant, really. If you know that you require a greater range than a
    particular bike offers, (and that plenty of other bikes *do* offer the greater
    range), then taht's the end of the matter. It's not much fun having people
    repeatedly telling you that you're confused about gearing.

    Especially when you demonstrate that you can calculate the relevant overall gear
    ranges of two different bikes and they *still* tell you you're confused about
    gearing 🙁

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    and very aggressive towards people who won't give you accurate
    answers like "why is this frame better than that".

    That isn't agression, it's frustration.

    The cycle:

    Me: I'm thinking of buying X
    Other: Y has a better frame than X
    Me: In what way
    Other: It's nicer
    Me: what do you mean by nicer
    Other: You have to ride it to know
    Me: But what should I be looking for
    Other: It's a nicer frame

    does tend to make one a little frustrated.

    It's a subjective thing!

    If it's subjective then people have no business expressing it as if it were a
    matter of fact.

    If someone had said: "Well, I prefered X over Y", that would have been OK.

    Saying X is *nicer* than Y, and the *eventually* admiting it's just a personal
    preference is likely to cause annoyance.

    Quoted message said:

    I meant did you go back to the same bike shop that gave you bad
    service to have your bike serviced and it turned out not to your
    satisfaction?

    Not on this occasion.

    Quoted message said:

    It sounded like from your point of view the service wasn't what you
    desired. I have no way of knowing where there's another underlying
    fault, whether the equipment they fitted is rubbish or whether they
    are a bunch of incompetent [censored].

    Perhaps you could explain how anyone of any competance could hand over an
    unrideable bike to a customer after doing a repair.

  13. On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:36:17 +0100, "Clive George" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    You could have determined the gearing problem for yourself if you had
    counted the teeth on the gears and compared to what they were on the
    previous bike.

    Indeed, but before I did that, I would have had to have been aware that they
    actually made triple chainwheels that had an overall lower (or higher, come to
    that) set of ratios than a twin.

    Once you know what's going on, it's obvious, but that's not the case if you're
    just someone who likes to ride a bike occasionally.

    Quoted message said:


    (Out of interest, had the bike shop pointed you to a fixed wheel track bike
    and said "that's what you want", would you have believed them?)

    No, because it's fairly obvious that a single ratio cannot have the same range
    as a twelve speed (which is what my previous bike had).

    Quoted message said:


    One thing you may wish to consider is that there is a vague correlation
    between quality of stock and knowledge/experience of staff. Ie go to the
    expensive shops for advice.

    [TIC]
    Then you have to put up with sniffy service and the guy permenantly looking over
    your shoulder in case a real customer (i.e. one who's not going to just buy a
    cheap £500 jobbie) needs attention.
    [/TIC]

  14. (Paul D) said:

    On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:34:32 +0100, Chris Eilbeck <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Well you bought a bike that wasn't what you wanted and you seem to
    think this is because of the treatment you got in the bike shop.

    I accept that I was partly to blame, but I feel that the lack of proactive
    assistance from the shop doesn't auger well.

    Did you try to take it back and have it changed/adjusted? If not, why not?

    Quoted message said:

    If it's subjective then people have no business expressing it as if
    it were a matter of fact.

    If someone had said: "Well, I prefered X over Y", that would have
    been OK.

    Saying X is *nicer* than Y, and the *eventually* admiting it's just
    a personal preference is likely to cause annoyance.

    Opinions posted here and on websites etc. are worth just what you're
    paying for them 😉

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It sounded like from your point of view the service wasn't what you
    desired. I have no way of knowing where there's another underlying
    fault, whether the equipment they fitted is rubbish or whether they
    are a bunch of incompetent [censored].

    Perhaps you could explain how anyone of any competance could hand
    over an unrideable bike to a customer after doing a repair.

    Maybe the guy who did the repair is different to the guy you dealt
    with? Maybe the salesman just assumed the technician would have
    tested the bike. Maybe the salesman assumed you'd go for a quick ride
    round the block and go back to have it adjusted if there was a
    problem.

    Chris
    --
    Chris Eilbeck

  15. Paul D said:

    There's nothing unusual about someone moaning about faults that have been a
    problem to them. It's only if they try to shift the blame for their own faults
    to others that it becomes an 'attitude problem'.

    Eureka.

    d.

  16. Paul D said:

    If I can't rely on the bike shop staff to make me aware that
    there may be some choice I didn't realise I had...

    ....I go to a different bike shop.

    Quoted message said:

    So yu said, and I agree that I should have done so, but I didn't realise the
    importance of that at the time.

    So whose fault is that?

    d.

  17. Paul D said:

    No, because it's fairly obvious that a single ratio cannot have the same range
    as a twelve speed (which is what my previous bike had).

    Wrong. We've had this out already, so you should know the answer to this
    one by now.

    d.

  18. Paul D said:

    Sorry, Canterbury area.

    Ah, you're a neighbour. I suggest you go to Downland Cycles on
    Canterbury West station - the only bike shop in Canterbury I trust. They
    are both enthusiastic about bikes and knowledgeable - if you want to
    discuss your needs with them they are more than happy to help.

    If your previous experiences of bike shops are based on Cyclemart in
    Canterbury, I can well understand your disappointment - I wouldn't go in
    there if you paid me.

    (I live up the road form you in W*********, where we have H*****,
    possibly the worst bike shop in the universe - a place where you send a
    wheel to be trued and it comes back worse than it went in...)

    d.

  19. davek said:
    Paul D said:

    Sorry, Canterbury area.

    Ah, you're a neighbour. I suggest you go to Downland Cycles on
    Canterbury West station - the only bike shop in Canterbury I trust. They
    are both enthusiastic about bikes and knowledgeable - if you want to
    discuss your needs with them they are more than happy to help.

    If your previous experiences of bike shops are based on Cyclemart in
    Canterbury, I can well understand your disappointment - I wouldn't go in
    there if you paid me.

    (I live up the road form you in W*********, where we have H*****,
    possibly the worst bike shop in the universe - a place where you send a
    wheel to be trued and it comes back worse than it went in...)

    There you go Paul, its easy if you ask the right questions.

    --
    Tony

    "A facility for quotation covers the absence of original thought" Lord
    Peter Wimsey (Dorothy L. Sayers)

  20. davek said:

    (I live up the road form you in W*********, where we have H*****,
    possibly the worst bike shop in the universe - a place where you send a
    wheel to be trued and it comes back worse than it went in...)

    I said Canterbury area - so closer than you thought.

    And it's funny you should mention H*******s, since this is the very shop that
    returned the non functioning bike, and where, when I'd told the guy what I was
    looking for in a new bike, he showed me one model and said, "We don't have it in
    your size, but we could order it for you".

    The shop that sold me the bike without making any effort to assist me was the
    one on the hight street in H**** B**. I gather the other HB shop is a Ridgeway
    Dealer.

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