Mountain Bikes · Public discussion

Why Do Mountain Bikers STILL Not Get It?

Started by Mike Vandeman · · Last activity · 81 posts · 2,526 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Mountain Bikes
Published
22 November 2004
Last activity
7 January 2005
Original author
Mike Vandeman
Posts
81
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
2,526
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–20 of 81
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. At 04:47 PM 11/20/04 -0800 said:

    Hi Michael,

    Quoted message said:

    First off, I am a mountainbiker, and I found your webpage and articles


    very interesting and thought provoking.

    I respect your EXTREMELY RARE (among mountain bikers) honesty and politeness!

    Quoted message said:

    I wonder would you be interested in exchanging some ideas on how the


    needs of wildlife and the needs of people to be in nature can be
    balanced.

    I am always happy to discuss that -- one of my favorite topics. But truthfully,
    there isn't much to talk about. All you have to do is look at things from the
    wildlife's point of view! Then you should be able to deduce what is needed,
    yourself. That's all I did (plus read the research on the topic).

    Quoted message said:

    Here are some ideas I would greatly appreciate your thoughts on;

    Quoted message said:

    Mankind's relationship with nature and the natural environment is about


    excitement and challenge as well as appreciating its flora and fauna.

    You saying that nature is a place to test yourself. That is purely a human
    concept, and leaves wildlife totally out of the picture! To make it easier to
    see, how would you feel if the wildlife felt the same about the inside of your
    house? See the point? You wouldn't like your home being used for thrills by
    spiders, mosquitoes, rats, mice, squirrels, raccoons, bed bugs, etc. It all
    comes down to the Golden Rule. Environmentalism is nothing but the extension of
    the Golden Rule to other species.

    Quoted message said:

    When I go with my family to Muir woods I do not feel the my son is


    being exposed to the full breath of experience as we stroll peacefully
    on the boardwalk among the spectacular annotated trees, I look forward
    to sharing the thrill of nature with him too, whether playing in the
    surf, hiking to a hilltop or rolling along a trail on our bikes.

    A good, tough hike or backpack can do the same thing, and do it MUCH BETTER.
    When you hike, you end up feeling better about yourself (increase your
    self-confidence & self-respect) because you are able to accomplish something
    difficult and pleasurable. When you mountain bike, you can't do that because (1)
    you are destroying wildlife habitat and driving other trail users out of the
    parks -- not something you can be proud of!!! (2) the bike is doing all the hard
    part -- taking all the beating -- especially on the downhill portion. For the
    same reason, motorcycling and auto driving can't do much for your self-esteem

    Quoted message said:

    If we


    ignore man's need to be thrilled and challenged by nature then less and
    less people will feel they have anything to loose when public lands are
    threatened.

    Getting "thrilled and challenged" doesn't increase your respect for nature. It
    has next to nothing to do with nature, except as an OBSTACLE. If you still can't
    see that, look at people. What if you used PEOPLE to get "thrilled and
    challenged", e.g. try to see how many sexual conquests you can collect? People
    who respect nature don't USE it. They ENJOY it as it is, and try to learn as
    much as they can about it. If you were getting "thrilled and challenged" by
    something that isn't DESTRUCTIVE, I and others would have no objection
    whatsoever.

    Quoted message said:

    We certainly need to protect and insulate huge areas of nature from


    human activity, but is it appropriate to fight this hard-line battle in
    the parklands of urban areas. If a large, diverse constituency doesnt
    use our parklands

    What's to prevent the mountain bikers from HIKING there????? As far as I can
    see, nothing but their own laziness and lack of interest in nature. If they were
    really a constituency for nature, instead of a constituency for selfish
    exploitation, they would be working to protect the parks even if bikes were
    banned.

    Quoted message said:

    there will come a day when there is a job crisis, a


    war, something huge and important that will make people say, well
    forest is pretty but we need jobs! this is a city not yosemite! If we
    have resposible use

    That's just the point: mountain biking is NOT a "responsible use".

    Quoted message said:

    and many people have a relationship with the


    parklands, not just a small minority then we have half a chance of
    keeping them for many generations. - Which is better? wisely and widely
    used land OR land with nobody to care or fight it's battle when
    unforseen threats emerge. What if parks somehow became enmeshed in this
    endless 'war on terror' we face.

    Mountain bikers don't work to protect the parks, even when they are allowed to
    ride. At most, they do "trail maintenance", which is, from the point of view of
    the wildlife, just as destructive as trail construction.

    Quoted message said:

    A park ranger told me last weekend about an individual who is suing the


    county for allowing bikers to use the wagon wheel section of
    tamarancho. According to this ranger the person suing lives on the road
    up to tamarancho. I find it hard to understand someone protesting the
    impact of mountain bike tires on a trail who has graded a huge chunk
    out of the mountain to live there and who's daily activity, sewerage,
    commuting, etc. must be comparable in impact to a large percentage of
    the total bike traffic in the area.

    I doubt that they built the road. Mountain biking is an ADDITIONAL impact.
    Banning bikes REDUCES impacts.

    Quoted message said:

    I believe that if we had completely


    unbiased means of evaluating each person's impact on nature that
    mountain bikers would not emerge as the primary villian.

    Irrelevant. Banning bikes still reduces total impacts. Bikers DRIVE to the
    trails, using those freeways, ofteh from as far as San Jose!

    Quoted message said:

    Freeways,


    Housing, Industrial, commercial property, these are who we should be
    fighting, not people who are making their way across hilltops,
    breathing ocean air, powered by their own hard work.

    Then why don't they WALK? That would retain their access to the hilltops and
    fresh air, WITHOUT all the extra damage.

    Quoted message said:

    People who rail against bikers should ask themselves what impact they


    themselves are having.

    We DO.

    Quoted message said:

    If we dont examine ourselves as critically as


    others then is it any surprise that the right has been successful in
    painting the environmentally conscious as hypocritical tree-huggers?

    Adding an ADDITIONAL source of damage is not beneficial, OBVIOUSLY!

    Quoted message said:

    I routinely ride from my home in the mission district of SF out across


    the bridge and up the the summit of mount tam. When I descend the
    mountain fire road I always slow for hikers on the trial, the majority
    of interactions are friendly, but sometimes I will get a scowl. A 'I
    was hiking in the wilds and along come you on your bike' type of scowl.

    Try to see it from their point of view. They KNOW that you are destroying
    wildlife habitat, if not there, then on other trails. Also, hikers go to nature
    to get AWAY from machinery like bikes. Also, someone on a fast-moving, heavy
    piece of machinery is SCARY. There is no way for a hiker to protect
    himself/herself from a biker.

    Quoted message said:

    It is safe to say that many of these angry people have driven to the


    trailhead and had no problem sharing the roads with me on my pollution
    free way across the city. I dont like having cars drive past me with
    their fumes and shocking death toll, but maybe those people are going
    to pick up a heavy load or drop 6 kids off at a party, those drivers
    are using the road for a different purpose than me. I wish people didnt
    drive, it would make my life more pleasant, but thats the trouble with
    sharing, you have to share.

    BS. I don't like the cars, either, But I feel no obligation whatsoever to
    "share" with them. Nature and the environment are more important. We should both
    be working together to reduce auto dependence, instead of fighting over mountain
    biking. But we aren't going to allow our parks and wildlife habitat to be
    destroyed, just to make mountain bikers happy. They are just NOT that valuable
    an "ally". In fact, they aren't allies AT ALL! They are working very hard to
    prevent more lands from becoming Wildernesses.

    Quoted message said:

    I would love to hear your thoughts on these ideas, so far I have not


    had a chance to talk with anybody who could progress my thinking on
    these.

    I hope I have been able to do so. There is a lot more information on my web
    site.

    Quoted message said:

    respectfully, and with the goal of learning and sharing different


    points of view,

    Quoted message said:

    Marcus Gosling

    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  2. Mike Vandeman said:

    A good, tough hike or backpack can do the same thing, and do it MUCH
    BETTER. When you hike, you end up feeling better about yourself
    (increase your self-confidence & self-respect) because you are able
    to accomplish something difficult and pleasurable.

    IOW, it's fine for you to pursue YOUR selfish, destructive sport, but not
    others.

    (Besides, I thought you said you advocated BANNING hiking.)

    Liar. Hypocrit.

    Deluxe Combo.

    That's our Mike...
    --
    BS (no, really)

  3. Treefrog said:

    Maybe, we do get it but we just don't give a [censored]! At least I don't. I'm fed
    up of nimby [censored] like you. By the way, and I say this as an avid walker and
    climber, have you seen the erosion caused by hikers????

    I think you are confusing Vandemann with someone who listens. Or
    comprehends. Or is capable of reason.

    A mistake many people make - once.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

  4. er, we try not to respond to Mikey here. He gets his giggles that way.

    Also, using the term "[censored]" multiple times in one post reflects more lack of
    imagination than strong feelings. Remember, kids read this too.

    "Treefrog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Maybe, we do get it but we just don't give a [censored]! At least I don't. I'm


    fed

    Quoted message said:

    up of nimby [censored] like you. By the way, and I say this as an avid walker


    and

    Quoted message said:

    climber, have you seen the erosion caused by hikers????

    Where there's a puddle of mud, hikers go around it and before long the
    puddle is a [censored] mud lake. What do mountainbikers do? Go straight


    though

    Quoted message said:

    it, thus not incresing the size of the puddle.

    And if you're so concerned about the environment, what the [censored] are you
    doing using a computer? Have you any idea how many chemicals are used and
    materials wasted in the process of making one! How many natural resources
    are being burt to power the thing!

    [censored] Luddite!

  5. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    You saying that nature is a place to test yourself. That is purely a human
    concept, and leaves wildlife totally out of the picture! To make it easier
    to
    see, how would you feel if the wildlife felt the same about the inside of
    your
    house? See the point? You wouldn't like your home being used for thrills
    by
    spiders, mosquitoes, rats, mice, squirrels, raccoons, bed bugs, etc. It
    all
    comes down to the Golden Rule. Environmentalism is nothing but the
    extension of
    the Golden Rule to other species.

    I don't play *in* animal's homes, I play *around* them. You won't find me
    in a snake's burrow, an ant mound, a bird's nest, etc. Likewise you won't
    find wildlife in my house (I hope). However, you will find wildlife playing
    *around* my house. There used to be a couple raccoons that would play on a
    swing in my yard at night. My family didn't think "Those pesky raccoons are
    testing themselves! Lets go get them off those swings right away!"

    IMHO cross-country hiking disturbs much more wildlife (per person engaged in
    the activity) than the use of a well-established bike trail. The farther
    you hike from civilization, the deeper into wildlife's "home" you are.

    --
    Scott Ehardt
    http://www.scehardt.com

  6. Mike Vandeman said:

    Getting "thrilled and challenged" doesn't increase your respect for nature. It
    has next to nothing to do with nature, except as an OBSTACLE. If you still can't
    see that, look at people. What if you used PEOPLE to get "thrilled and
    challenged", e.g. try to see how many sexual conquests you can collect? People
    who respect nature don't USE it. They ENJOY it as it is, and try to learn as
    much as they can about it.

    I think many a hiker or climber (and many other, similar activities)
    would say they love the challenge of what they're doing. why do they
    STILL not get it, trying to enjoy nature in such a manner...geez.

    bri

    --

    * enjoying the karma *
    remove LKJSDFJSD from address to email

  7. "bri719" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Mike Vandeman said:

    Getting "thrilled and challenged" doesn't increase your respect for


    nature. It

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    has next to nothing to do with nature, except as an OBSTACLE. If you


    still can't

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    see that, look at people. What if you used PEOPLE to get "thrilled and
    challenged", e.g. try to see how many sexual conquests you can collect?


    People

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    who respect nature don't USE it. They ENJOY it as it is, and try to learn


    as

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    much as they can about it.

    I think many a hiker or climber (and many other, similar activities)
    would say they love the challenge of what they're doing. why do they
    STILL not get it, trying to enjoy nature in such a manner...geez.

    bri

    I tried mountain biking. Did not like it.

  8. Quoted message said:


    I tried mountain biking. Did not like it.

    So why are you here then?

  9. "Fred Fragger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    I tried mountain biking. Did not like it.

    So why are you here then?

    Because this thread is cross posted to several groups. I am not actually
    here. I am there.

  10. Just zis Guy said:
    Treefrog said:

    Maybe, we do get it but we just don't give a [censored]! At least I don't. I'm fed
    up of nimby [censored] like you. By the way, and I say this as an avid walker and
    climber, have you seen the erosion caused by hikers????

    I think you are confusing Vandemann with someone who listens. Or
    comprehends. Or is capable of reason.

    A mistake many people make - once.

    Guy

    Actually that big post and response of Mikey's must be the most logical
    and non-Vanderman response from him that I have ever seen. I'm a little
    scared now - he was almost... logical, reasonable and polite.
    --
    Westie
    "Feeling like he went through the looking glass today"

  11. the Moderator said:

    I am not actually here. I am there.

    Aren't we all.

  12. Mike Vandeman said:
    Quoted message said:

    IMVU: Marcus Gosling <[email hidden]> wrote:
    First off, I am a mountainbiker,
    Mankind's relationship with nature and the natural environment is about
    excitement and challenge as well as appreciating its flora and fauna.

    You saying that nature is a place to test yourself. That is purely a human
    concept, and leaves wildlife totally out of the picture! To make it easier to
    see, how would you feel if the wildlife felt the same about the inside of your
    house? See the point? You wouldn't like your home being used for thrills by
    spiders, mosquitoes, rats, mice, squirrels, raccoons, bed bugs, etc.

    How do we know that spiders, mosquitoes, rats etc, DON'T use our homes
    for thrills? I know that some possums that I had in my roof had a
    bloody great time galloping across the ceiling at night. Don't forget
    that the vast majority of these animals destroy the structure of our
    homes too. Wood worms tunnel, rats chew, woodpeckers peck, raccoons
    nest, bedbugs drink our blood, bedmites live off the dried skin flakes.
    Making assumptions about what the animals really think is a purely
    human concept.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I look forward
    to sharing the thrill of nature with him too, whether playing in the
    surf, hiking to a hilltop or rolling along a trail on our bikes.

    A good, tough hike or backpack can do the same thing, and do it MUCH BETTER.

    I think that you better get back onto the debate about exclusing ALL
    human activity from wildlife areas. Your argument that hiking should be
    allowed because it has less impact than mountainbiking is flawed.
    Hiking has an impact and a significant impact. You cannot use the
    argument that it is OK to hike but not to bike. You should be banning
    hiking as well.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If we
    ignore man's need to be thrilled and challenged by nature then less and
    less people will feel they have anything to loose when public lands are
    threatened.

    Getting "thrilled and challenged" doesn't increase your respect for nature. It
    has next to nothing to do with nature, except as an OBSTACLE. If you still can't
    see that, look at people. What if you used PEOPLE to get "thrilled and
    challenged"

    Flawed analogy. By your own words, people are not nature and therefore
    cannot be compared to it. Invalid argument and a shocker of an analogy.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    We certainly need to protect and insulate huge areas of nature from
    human activity

    What's to prevent the mountain bikers from HIKING there?????

    Hiking has an impact on nature too. You say that impacting on nature is
    bad. Why is hiking better than biking?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    there will come a day people say, well
    forest is pretty but we need jobs! this is a city not yosemite! If we
    have resposible use

    That's just the point: mountain biking is NOT a "responsible use".

    Why not? And why is hiking a responsible use?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    What if parks somehow became enmeshed in this
    endless 'war on terror' we face.

    Mountain bikers don't work to protect the parks, even when they are allowed to
    ride. At most, they do "trail maintenance", which is, from the point of view of
    the wildlife, just as destructive as trail construction.

    How many hikers are involved in trail maintenance? How many hikers
    always stay on the trail? Why allow hiking? Surely trails, toilet
    facilities, parking lots, access roads, park buildings, steps on steep
    trails, observation platforms, and tramper's huts are all very
    destructive things provided only for hikers?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I find it hard to understand someone protesting the
    impact of mountain bike tires on a trail who has graded a huge chunk
    out of the mountain to live there...

    I doubt that they built the road. Mountain biking is an ADDITIONAL impact.
    Banning bikes REDUCES impacts.

    And by your logic, banning hiking would reduce any impact also. So why
    ban bikes and not hiking?
    Why do you doubt that they built the road? If their house is at the end
    of the road it is logical to assume that they built the road. Simply
    dimissing the fact that SOMEONE built the road for some reason other
    than mountainbiking or hiking doesn't make it any better.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I believe that if we had completely
    unbiased means of evaluating each person's impact on nature that
    mountain bikers would not emerge as the primary villian.

    Irrelevant. Banning bikes still reduces total impacts. Bikers DRIVE to the
    trails, using those freeways, ofteh from as far as San Jose!

    Likewise, banning hikers would reduce impacts too.
    And how do the hikers from San Jose or the families out for a Sunday
    afternoon walk in the wilderness get to these trails? I'm guessing that
    they walk from San Jose.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    People who rail against bikers should ask themselves what impact they
    themselves are having.

    We DO.

    Not hard enough obviously.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If we dont examine ourselves as critically as
    others then is it any surprise that the right has been successful in
    painting the environmentally conscious as hypocritical tree-huggers?

    Adding an ADDITIONAL source of damage is not beneficial, OBVIOUSLY!

    Ah ha. So some damage from hiking is OK, but supposedly adding some
    more damage from biking is not OK? Extra damage that according to
    studies by the IMBA is no greater than damage caused by hiking anyway.
    --
    Westie
    "It's a wet Monday afternoon and I've got too much time on my hands..."

  13. Mike Vandeman said:


    You wouldn't like your home being used for thrills by
    spiders, mosquitoes, rats, mice, squirrels, raccoons, bed bugs, etc. It all
    comes down to the Golden Rule. Environmentalism is nothing but the extension of
    the Golden Rule to other species.

    If these guys would stay out of my place, then I'd golden rule them and
    stay out of theirs. However, I see a spider getting its thrills over in
    MY corner right now. Wednesday I'm off and riding my dirt bike in the
    spider home as a revenge.

    BTW, how many bed bugs will be living free and easy in this wildlife
    paradise if you get it going?

    -paul

  14. Westie said:

    Actually that big post and response of Mikey's must be the most logical
    and non-Vanderman response from him that I have ever seen. I'm a little
    scared now - he was almost... logical, reasonable and polite.

    It was the same old "BS" this and "nonsense" that, accompanied by his same
    old tired dogma. About the only good thing in it is that he finally
    stopped using period marks in quoting, though in substitute he used
    another screwed-up quoting method (only marking the first line).

    And you caused me to waste my time by reading it, you turkey. :-)

    --
    -BB-
    To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)

  15. On 23 Nov 2004 00:48:15 GMT, BB <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ..On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:19:55 +1300, Westie wrote:
    ..
    ..> Actually that big post and response of Mikey's must be the most logical
    ..> and non-Vanderman response from him that I have ever seen. I'm a little
    ..> scared now - he was almost... logical, reasonable and polite.
    ..
    ..It was the same old "BS" this and "nonsense" that, accompanied by his same
    ..old tired dogma. About the only good thing in it is that he finally
    ..stopped using period marks in quoting, though in substitute he used
    ..another screwed-up quoting method (only marking the first line).
    ..
    ..And you caused me to waste my time by reading it, you turkey. :-)

    Wassa matter? Filter broken?
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  16. On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 19:26:03 GMT, "Scott Ehardt"
    <SCEhardt--((REM@VE))--SCEhardt.com> wrote:

    .."Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    ..news:[email hidden]...
    ..> You saying that nature is a place to test yourself. That is purely a human
    ..> concept, and leaves wildlife totally out of the picture! To make it easier
    ..> to
    ..> see, how would you feel if the wildlife felt the same about the inside of
    ..> your
    ..> house? See the point? You wouldn't like your home being used for thrills
    ..> by
    ..> spiders, mosquitoes, rats, mice, squirrels, raccoons, bed bugs, etc. It
    ..> all
    ..> comes down to the Golden Rule. Environmentalism is nothing but the
    ..> extension of
    ..> the Golden Rule to other species.
    ..
    ..
    ..I don't play *in* animal's homes, I play *around* them. You won't find me
    ..in a snake's burrow, an ant mound, a bird's nest, etc. Likewise you won't
    ..find wildlife in my house (I hope).

    You only show how little you know. They are very numerous.

    However, you will find wildlife playing
    ..*around* my house. There used to be a couple raccoons that would play on a
    ..swing in my yard at night. My family didn't think "Those pesky raccoons are
    ..testing themselves! Lets go get them off those swings right away!"
    ..
    ..IMHO cross-country hiking disturbs much more wildlife (per person engaged in
    ..the activity) than the use of a well-established bike trail. The farther
    ..you hike from civilization, the deeper into wildlife's "home" you are.

    Wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm. Science has proven that
    mountain biking is more harmful than hiking.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  17. On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:14:37 -0600, "the Moderator"
    <sparky@no_spam_engineer.com> wrote:

    ..
    .."bri719" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    ..news:[email hidden]...
    ..> Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..>
    ..> >Getting "thrilled and challenged" doesn't increase your respect for
    ..nature. It
    ..> >has next to nothing to do with nature, except as an OBSTACLE. If you
    ..still can't
    ..> >see that, look at people. What if you used PEOPLE to get "thrilled and
    ..> >challenged", e.g. try to see how many sexual conquests you can collect?
    ..People
    ..> >who respect nature don't USE it. They ENJOY it as it is, and try to learn
    ..as
    ..> >much as they can about it.
    ..> >
    ..>
    ..> I think many a hiker or climber (and many other, similar activities)
    ..> would say they love the challenge of what they're doing. why do they
    ..> STILL not get it, trying to enjoy nature in such a manner...geez.
    ..>
    ..> bri
    ..>
    ..
    ..I tried mountain biking. Did not like it.

    Me, too. It's not enjoyable. It's just an adolescent macho thing.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  18. On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:51:22 +1300, Westie <[email hidden]> wrote:

    ..Mike Vandeman wrote:
    ..>>IMVU: Marcus Gosling <[email hidden]> wrote:
    ..>>First off, I am a mountainbiker,
    ..>>Mankind's relationship with nature and the natural environment is about
    ..>>excitement and challenge as well as appreciating its flora and fauna.
    ..>
    ..> You saying that nature is a place to test yourself. That is purely a human
    ..> concept, and leaves wildlife totally out of the picture! To make it easier to
    ..> see, how would you feel if the wildlife felt the same about the inside of your
    ..> house? See the point? You wouldn't like your home being used for thrills by
    ..> spiders, mosquitoes, rats, mice, squirrels, raccoons, bed bugs, etc.
    ..
    ..How do we know that spiders, mosquitoes, rats etc, DON'T use our homes
    ..for thrills? I know that some possums that I had in my roof had a
    ..bloody great time galloping across the ceiling at night. Don't forget
    ..that the vast majority of these animals destroy the structure of our
    ..homes too. Wood worms tunnel, rats chew, woodpeckers peck, raccoons
    ..nest, bedbugs drink our blood, bedmites live off the dried skin flakes.
    .. Making assumptions about what the animals really think is a purely
    ..human concept.

    Now you know why the wildlife hate having us around.

    ..>>I look forward
    ..>>to sharing the thrill of nature with him too, whether playing in the
    ..>>surf, hiking to a hilltop or rolling along a trail on our bikes.
    ..>
    ..> A good, tough hike or backpack can do the same thing, and do it MUCH BETTER.
    ..
    ..I think that you better get back onto the debate about exclusing ALL
    ..human activity from wildlife areas. Your argument that hiking should be
    ..allowed because it has less impact than mountainbiking is flawed.
    ..Hiking has an impact and a significant impact. You cannot use the
    ..argument that it is OK to hike but not to bike. You should be banning
    ..hiking as well.

    Not ALL hiking.

    ..>>If we
    ..>>ignore man's need to be thrilled and challenged by nature then less and
    ..>>less people will feel they have anything to loose when public lands are
    ..>>threatened.
    ..>
    ..> Getting "thrilled and challenged" doesn't increase your respect for nature. It
    ..> has next to nothing to do with nature, except as an OBSTACLE. If you still can't
    ..> see that, look at people. What if you used PEOPLE to get "thrilled and
    ..> challenged"
    ..
    ..Flawed analogy. By your own words, people are not nature and therefore
    ..cannot be compared to it. Invalid argument and a shocker of an analogy.

    Look up "analogy" in the dictionary.

    ..>>We certainly need to protect and insulate huge areas of nature from
    ..>>human activity
    ..>
    ..> What's to prevent the mountain bikers from HIKING there?????
    ..
    ..Hiking has an impact on nature too. You say that impacting on nature is
    ..bad. Why is hiking better than biking?

    See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.

    ..>>there will come a day people say, well
    ..>>forest is pretty but we need jobs! this is a city not yosemite! If we
    ..>>have resposible use
    ..>
    ..> That's just the point: mountain biking is NOT a "responsible use".
    ..
    ..Why not? And why is hiking a responsible use?

    It is more responsible (less impact) than hiking.

    ..>>What if parks somehow became enmeshed in this
    ..>>endless 'war on terror' we face.
    ..>
    ..> Mountain bikers don't work to protect the parks, even when they are allowed to
    ..> ride. At most, they do "trail maintenance", which is, from the point of view of
    ..> the wildlife, just as destructive as trail construction.
    ..
    ..How many hikers are involved in trail maintenance? How many hikers
    ..always stay on the trail? Why allow hiking? Surely trails, toilet
    ..facilities, parking lots, access roads, park buildings, steps on steep
    ..trails, observation platforms, and tramper's huts are all very
    ..destructive things provided only for hikers?

    Really? Mountain bikers don't use toilets? That explains a lot!

    ..>>I find it hard to understand someone protesting the
    ..>>impact of mountain bike tires on a trail who has graded a huge chunk
    ..>>out of the mountain to live there...
    .. >
    ..> I doubt that they built the road. Mountain biking is an ADDITIONAL impact.
    ..> Banning bikes REDUCES impacts.
    ..
    ..And by your logic, banning hiking would reduce any impact also. So why
    ..ban bikes and not hiking?

    The latter is harder. Bikes have no rights. DUH!

    ..Why do you doubt that they built the road? If their house is at the end
    ..of the road it is logical to assume that they built the road. Simply
    ..dimissing the fact that SOMEONE built the road for some reason other
    ..than mountainbiking or hiking doesn't make it any better.
    ..
    ..>>I believe that if we had completely
    ..>>unbiased means of evaluating each person's impact on nature that
    ..>>mountain bikers would not emerge as the primary villian.
    ..>
    ..> Irrelevant. Banning bikes still reduces total impacts. Bikers DRIVE to the
    ..> trails, using those freeways, ofteh from as far as San Jose!
    ..
    ..Likewise, banning hikers would reduce impacts too.

    I actually advocate that, but YOU don't, hypocrite.

    ..And how do the hikers from San Jose or the families out for a Sunday
    ..afternoon walk in the wilderness get to these trails? I'm guessing that
    ..they walk from San Jose.
    ..
    ..
    ..>>People who rail against bikers should ask themselves what impact they
    ..>> themselves are having.
    ..>
    ..> We DO.
    ..
    ..Not hard enough obviously.
    ..
    ..>>If we dont examine ourselves as critically as
    ..>>others then is it any surprise that the right has been successful in
    ..>>painting the environmentally conscious as hypocritical tree-huggers?
    ..>
    .. >
    ..>Adding an ADDITIONAL source of damage is not beneficial, OBVIOUSLY!
    ..
    ..Ah ha. So some damage from hiking is OK, but supposedly adding some
    ..more damage from biking is not OK? Extra damage that according to
    ..studies by the IMBA is no greater than damage caused by hiking anyway.

    You obviously haven't read those biased studies. See
    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

  19. B i l l S o r n s o n said:
    the Moderator said:

    I am not actually here. I am there.

    Aren't we all.

    Hehehe....

    "there's someone in my head, but it's not me."

  20. "Mike Vandeman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:51:22 +1300, Westie <[email hidden]>


    Quoted message said:


    .Mike Vandeman wrote:
    .>>IMVU: Marcus Gosling <[email hidden]> wrote:
    .>>First off, I am a mountainbiker,
    .>>Mankind's relationship with nature and the natural environment is about
    .>>excitement and challenge as well as appreciating its flora and fauna.
    .>
    .> You saying that nature is a place to test yourself. That is purely a


    human

    Quoted message said:

    .> concept, and leaves wildlife totally out of the picture! To make it


    easier to

    Quoted message said:

    .> see, how would you feel if the wildlife felt the same about the inside


    of your

    Quoted message said:

    .> house? See the point? You wouldn't like your home being used for


    thrills by

    Quoted message said:

    .> spiders, mosquitoes, rats, mice, squirrels, raccoons, bed bugs, etc.
    .
    .How do we know that spiders, mosquitoes, rats etc, DON'T use our homes
    .for thrills? I know that some possums that I had in my roof had a
    .bloody great time galloping across the ceiling at night. Don't forget
    .that the vast majority of these animals destroy the structure of our
    .homes too. Wood worms tunnel, rats chew, woodpeckers peck, raccoons
    .nest, bedbugs drink our blood, bedmites live off the dried skin flakes.
    . Making assumptions about what the animals really think is a purely
    .human concept.

    Quoted message said:

    Now you know why the wildlife hate having us around.

    Mikey -- Long after you die, most of us will still be MTB-N (Rest
    assured...full pun intended!). And, according to your moronic spewing of
    foam, wildlife should be happier knowing that one less of "us" is around to
    hate. Please be true to your cause...don't keep wildlife waiting...PUTZ!!!

    Goodoz
    Liberator of Overgrown Forest and Loather of Human Haters (be they two
    legged or four or even if they slither like you!)

    Quoted message said:


    .>>I look forward
    .>>to sharing the thrill of nature with him too, whether playing in the
    .>>surf, hiking to a hilltop or rolling along a trail on our bikes.
    .>
    .> A good, tough hike or backpack can do the same thing, and do it MUCH


    BETTER.

    Quoted message said:

    .
    .I think that you better get back onto the debate about exclusing ALL
    .human activity from wildlife areas. Your argument that hiking should be
    .allowed because it has less impact than mountainbiking is flawed.
    .Hiking has an impact and a significant impact. You cannot use the
    .argument that it is OK to hike but not to bike. You should be banning
    .hiking as well.

    Not ALL hiking.

    .>>If we
    .>>ignore man's need to be thrilled and challenged by nature then less and
    .>>less people will feel they have anything to loose when public lands are
    .>>threatened.
    .>
    .> Getting "thrilled and challenged" doesn't increase your respect for


    nature. It

    Quoted message said:

    .> has next to nothing to do with nature, except as an OBSTACLE. If you


    still can't

    Quoted message said:

    .> see that, look at people. What if you used PEOPLE to get "thrilled and
    .> challenged"
    .
    .Flawed analogy. By your own words, people are not nature and therefore
    .cannot be compared to it. Invalid argument and a shocker of an analogy.

    Look up "analogy" in the dictionary.

    .>>We certainly need to protect and insulate huge areas of nature from
    .>>human activity
    .>
    .> What's to prevent the mountain bikers from HIKING there?????
    .
    .Hiking has an impact on nature too. You say that impacting on nature is
    .bad. Why is hiking better than biking?

    See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.

    .>>there will come a day people say, well
    .>>forest is pretty but we need jobs! this is a city not yosemite! If we
    .>>have resposible use
    .>
    .> That's just the point: mountain biking is NOT a "responsible use".
    .
    .Why not? And why is hiking a responsible use?

    It is more responsible (less impact) than hiking.

    .>>What if parks somehow became enmeshed in this
    .>>endless 'war on terror' we face.
    .>
    .> Mountain bikers don't work to protect the parks, even when they are


    allowed to

    Quoted message said:

    .> ride. At most, they do "trail maintenance", which is, from the point of


    view of

    Quoted message said:

    .> the wildlife, just as destructive as trail construction.
    .
    .How many hikers are involved in trail maintenance? How many hikers
    .always stay on the trail? Why allow hiking? Surely trails, toilet
    .facilities, parking lots, access roads, park buildings, steps on steep
    .trails, observation platforms, and tramper's huts are all very
    .destructive things provided only for hikers?

    Really? Mountain bikers don't use toilets? That explains a lot!

    .>>I find it hard to understand someone protesting the
    .>>impact of mountain bike tires on a trail who has graded a huge chunk
    .>>out of the mountain to live there...
    . >
    .> I doubt that they built the road. Mountain biking is an ADDITIONAL


    impact.

    Quoted message said:

    .> Banning bikes REDUCES impacts.
    .
    .And by your logic, banning hiking would reduce any impact also. So why
    .ban bikes and not hiking?

    The latter is harder. Bikes have no rights. DUH!

    .Why do you doubt that they built the road? If their house is at the end
    .of the road it is logical to assume that they built the road. Simply
    .dimissing the fact that SOMEONE built the road for some reason other
    .than mountainbiking or hiking doesn't make it any better.
    .
    .>>I believe that if we had completely
    .>>unbiased means of evaluating each person's impact on nature that
    .>>mountain bikers would not emerge as the primary villian.
    .>
    .> Irrelevant. Banning bikes still reduces total impacts. Bikers DRIVE to


    the

    Quoted message said:

    .> trails, using those freeways, ofteh from as far as San Jose!
    .
    .Likewise, banning hikers would reduce impacts too.

    I actually advocate that, but YOU don't, hypocrite.

    .And how do the hikers from San Jose or the families out for a Sunday
    .afternoon walk in the wilderness get to these trails? I'm guessing that
    .they walk from San Jose.
    .
    .
    .>>People who rail against bikers should ask themselves what impact they
    .>> themselves are having.
    .>
    .> We DO.
    .
    .Not hard enough obviously.
    .
    .>>If we dont examine ourselves as critically as
    .>>others then is it any surprise that the right has been successful in
    .>>painting the environmentally conscious as hypocritical tree-huggers?
    .>
    . >
    .>Adding an ADDITIONAL source of damage is not beneficial, OBVIOUSLY!
    .
    .Ah ha. So some damage from hiking is OK, but supposedly adding some
    .more damage from biking is not OK? Extra damage that according to
    .studies by the IMBA is no greater than damage caused by hiking anyway.

    You obviously haven't read those biased studies. See
    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.htm.
    ===
    I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
    humans ("pure habitat"😉. Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
    years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

    http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.