Why did God allow the Tsuami?

goodboy <[email hidden]> wrote in news:Xns95CEC5136FEC6nospamcharternet@
69.28.186.121:

Quoted message said:

Why?? What is he saying? He does not like the idolant
sloths laying around on the beach!

YOU ARE AN INDOLANT JACKASS!

goodboy wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Why?? What is he saying? He does not like the idolant
sloths laying around on the beach!

To the Christian conservatives like Bush it's a sign of the end times right.
Maybe that's why it took him 4 days to come out of his ranch house to
express his sympathy. That sluggish gesture won't be lost on the Muslims
over in that part of the world. No matter what the US does now to help it
will be seen as too little too late.

-T

carver said:

goodboy <[email hidden]> wrote in

news:Xns95CEC5136FEC6nospamcharternet@

Quoted message said:

69.28.186.121:

Quoted message said:

Why?? What is he saying? He does not like the idolant
sloths laying around on the beach!

YOU ARE AN INDOLANT JACKASS!

You may not like his ANSWER, but it's a very good philosophical
and religious QUESTION!

A well-known expression for someone who died from doing
something extremely stupid is that "Darwin took him away
to improve the gene pool" or something to that effect.
Darwin (of the Theory of Evolution) was given as a reason.

Of course that would NOT apply to the present disaster.
And even if it did, it would violate certain Christians'
belief (such as the Southern Baptists in the USA) who
even tries to legislate against the TEACHING of Darwin's
THEORY of Evolution!

So, on the SERIOUS side, what do each of the RELIGIOUS
groups/sects/demominations have to say WHY did god/christ/
allah/buddha/etc. allow this to happen (to obviously
thousands of INNOCENT victims)?

On the LESS SERIOUS side, the tsunamis are obviously
examples of "[censored] Happens".

With which of these religious/philogophical statements do
you agree or disagree? :-)

Agnosticism How can we know if [censored] happens? or What is this
[censored]?
Buddhism If [censored] happens it is not really [censored]
Calvinism [censored] happens because you didn't work hard enough.
Cannibalism Don't eat the [censored].
Catholicism If [censored] happens, you deserve it
Christian Science [censored] is in your mind.
Communism [censored] happens to all of us.
Confucianism Confucias say, ``[censored] Happens''
Denialism What [censored]?
Environmentalism [censored] is biodegradable.
Existentialism What is [censored] anyway?
Fatalism Oh [censored], it's going to happen!
Fetishism I love it when [censored] happens.
Freudianism [censored] is a phallic symbol.
Fundamentalism [censored] happens, but don't publish it.
Hare Krishna [censored] happens rama rama.
Hedonism There's nothing quite like a good [censored].
Hinduism This [censored] happened before.
Islam If [censored] happens, take a hostage.
If [censored] happens, it is the will of Allah.
Jehovah's Witnesses [censored] happens door to door.
Judaism Why does this [censored] always happen to us?
Lutheranism [censored] happens, but as long as you're sorry, it's OK.
Masochism Do [censored] to me!
Moonies Only happy [censored] really happens.
Mormon This [censored] is going to happen again.
Nihilism [censored] doesn't mean anything.
Paganism [censored] happens for a variety of reasons.
Protestantism Let the [censored] happen to someone else.
Rastafarianism Let's smoke this [censored].
Rationalism I [censored], therefore I am.
Repressionism I'll hold this [censored] in forever.
Sadism I will [censored] on you!
Scientology All this happens to be [censored]
Seventh Day Adventist No [censored] on Saturdays.
Stoicism This [censored] is good for me.
Taoism [censored] happens.
Unitarianism It's not the [censored] that matters. It's the process.
Vegetarianism If it happens to [censored], don't eat it.
Wicca The Goddess makes [censored] happen.
Witchcraft Mix this [censored] together and it will happen
Zen What is the sound of [censored] happening?
Zoroastrianism [censored] happens half the time

The words of wisdom above were posted in a ng in 1992. There
has been many, many more NEW ones since that are easily
google-retrievable. Happy [censored]-hunting when you're not running.
-- Bob.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

With which of these religious/philogophical statements do
you agree or disagree? :-)

Agnosticism How can we know if [censored] happens? or What is this
[censored]?
Buddhism If [censored] happens it is not really [censored]
Calvinism [censored] happens because you didn't work hard enough.
Cannibalism Don't eat the [censored].
Catholicism If [censored] happens, you deserve it
Christian Science [censored] is in your mind.
Communism [censored] happens to all of us.
Confucianism Confucias say, ``[censored] Happens''
Denialism What [censored]?
Environmentalism [censored] is biodegradable.
Existentialism What is [censored] anyway?
Fatalism Oh [censored], it's going to happen!
Fetishism I love it when [censored] happens.
Freudianism [censored] is a phallic symbol.
Fundamentalism [censored] happens, but don't publish it.
Hare Krishna [censored] happens rama rama.
Hedonism There's nothing quite like a good [censored].
Hinduism This [censored] happened before.
Islam If [censored] happens, take a hostage.
If [censored] happens, it is the will of Allah.
Jehovah's Witnesses [censored] happens door to door.
Judaism Why does this [censored] always happen to us?
Lutheranism [censored] happens, but as long as you're sorry, it's OK.
Masochism Do [censored] to me!
Moonies Only happy [censored] really happens.
Mormon This [censored] is going to happen again.
Nihilism [censored] doesn't mean anything.
Paganism [censored] happens for a variety of reasons.
Protestantism Let the [censored] happen to someone else.
Rastafarianism Let's smoke this [censored].
Rationalism I [censored], therefore I am.
Repressionism I'll hold this [censored] in forever.
Sadism I will [censored] on you!
Scientology All this happens to be [censored]
Seventh Day Adventist No [censored] on Saturdays.
Stoicism This [censored] is good for me.
Taoism [censored] happens.
Unitarianism It's not the [censored] that matters. It's the process.
Vegetarianism If it happens to [censored], don't eat it.
Wicca The Goddess makes [censored] happen.
Witchcraft Mix this [censored] together and it will happen
Zen What is the sound of [censored] happening?
Zoroastrianism [censored] happens half the time

You left out two:

Atheism: [censored] doesn't happen
Satanism: [censored] happens to you, not I!
Martha
Real Men wear pants over their asses

Black Metal Martha said:

You left out two:

Atheism: [censored] doesn't happen
Satanism: [censored] happens to you, not I!
Martha

I left out MUCH more. :-) In the abbreviated post cited,

Atheism Sheeit. or I don't believe this [censored]

Elsewhere:

Satanism SNEPPAH TIHS

Presbyterian This [censored] was bound to happen.
Episcopalian It's not so bad if [censored] happens,
---- as long as you serve the right wine with it.
Methodist It's not so bad if [censored] happens,
---- as long as you serve grape juice with it.
Lutheran If [censored] happens, don't talk about it.
Fundamentalism If [censored] happens, you will go to hell,
---- unless you are born again (Amen!)
Quakers Let us not fight over this [censored].
Jehovah's Witnesses Knock Knock. [censored] happens

.... and more.

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:PmJAd.14780$152.478@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

goodboy wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Why?? What is he saying? He does not like the idolant
sloths laying around on the beach!

To the Christian conservatives like Bush it's a sign of the end times
right.
Maybe that's why it took him 4 days to come out of his ranch house to
express his sympathy. That sluggish gesture won't be lost on the
Muslims
over in that part of the world. No matter what the US does now to
help it
will be seen as too little too late.

I'm not sure it's because he/they don't have a clue(or care) or our US
economics are in such deep [censored] and spiraling lower that spare change
will crush him. Hmmm, how much debt will this second Viet Nam cost!

-DF

god & w can go too hell

god & w can go too hell

Why did God allow the Tsunami? Thu, Dec 30, 2004, 1:32am (EST+5)
(goodboy)
Why?? What is he saying? He does not like the indolent sloths laying
around on the beach!

Your Question is Religion, read the Bible and other book. a life time to
do.and live.

Luv waves there news said here this a.m., 5½ feet.
first is P wave.
second is W wave.
last is luv wave.
runners taken to high ground. is luv wave now.
news do P wave and
home movies is P and W wave.
Note to self.
there is a wide mix of goods there to pick and live off just everywhere
from view I see on news.
diamonds are brought up to surface from magma.
so the 2 or 3 minutes before. P hit was to say. not runner
friendly. it push onto shore from bounders force under the sight of
ocean.

earth liquid core is unbalance this is why we tilt 28°. now the N
hemp is facing away direction of our sun and the southern hemp is
closer. so they are 1 day before us some and it is summer there.
greenish time.0to24h indian ocean or "The East" s.e. asia.

The earth is the blame.
God well receive the souls in time and send them on.

as to are closest solar system pic from hubble the planets around it
was not e.t. it is like 1½ 1/y (billon) years younger. in our own
help a 1½ 1/y Titan one of near 29 or 30 satellites or moons to be.
well be able to support human life.

from Galaxies to Tolerances.
Time travel is able thru a worm hole yet the force needed to is a black
hole, yet the hole well not with stand the hole. the work is in progress
to make a worm hole. or we can just live serve God some and jesus
and and try not to wreck our planet.
Nebula in W M star in north polar..
and Triangle summer is were the e.t not live. or maybe stair way to
heaven,and e.t live. not know yet. and hell too (vega)

the closest sun. were no e.t found yet. a hubble pictures show. of
planets not livable for near 1 1/2 billion more years. passion is
all.

galaxies colide in 1 1/y ours
we well live thru it.?/.

our sun dies 1 1/2 billion years.

possble plantets. is two. titan and this hubble pictures one.

visible light/

Fusion: Nucleus eruption from the core of the planet did it. magma
earthquake from zenith the Indian ocean tectonic plate line.

all cosmology (universe) studies are done with High Tech instruments.
probes and others. is how nasa finds theories of physics and Quantum
Mechanics of both the Big and Small. Theories.
were one can go from physics to philosophes.

the Biosphere (Earth) and the universe (=1 mores=1+1=2)from voyager2
lift off 1972.
travels like 270³ (thousands) miles per second. like reach (2) a year
back or so.
we a soupier of chemicals amino acids. evolutions (2 arms, 2 legs 1
head.) 300³+³ (million) years. ³more zeros .
Nebula in the M or W. the eye. one of maybe 9. or not. (passion)
theories. has to live with earth and the universes.
or not. the soupier do.
anyways....running up the hill helps.

Health and running.
Got 17 more from 105=88 miles
or 2649 miles. for 2004
go with my 26 inch tires.
not work in 112 weeks still.
I not do [censored]. (-1-) :>😉

numberus years painting. by the hour or job, you buy the paint and
supplies. Local of Ortonville Michigan. phone not in the book. e mail
only please. for work only or contact. ( a nature person. most likely be
outside.)
e-mail. [email hidden]

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
:
: carver wrote:
: > goodboy <[email hidden]> wrote in
: news:Xns95CEC5136FEC6nospamcharternet@
: > 69.28.186.121:
: >
: > > Why?? What is he saying? He does not like the idolant
: > > sloths laying around on the beach!
: > >
: > >
: >
: > YOU ARE AN INDOLANT JACKASS!
:
: You may not like his ANSWER, but it's a very good philosophical
: and religious QUESTION!
:
: A well-known expression for someone who died from doing
: something extremely stupid is that "Darwin took him away
: to improve the gene pool" or something to that effect.
: Darwin (of the Theory of Evolution) was given as a reason.
:
: Of course that would NOT apply to the present disaster.
: And even if it did, it would violate certain Christians'
: belief (such as the Southern Baptists in the USA) who
: even tries to legislate against the TEACHING of Darwin's
: THEORY of Evolution!
:
: So, on the SERIOUS side, what do each of the RELIGIOUS
: groups/sects/demominations have to say WHY did god/christ/
: allah/buddha/etc. allow this to happen (to obviously
: thousands of INNOCENT victims)?

I like the way the question is worded: "Why did god...ALLOW this to happen?"
Hits the nail right on the head. God didn't cause it. He's not gleefully
rubbing his hands together and cackling in joy at all the pain and
suffering. But he did allow it- surreptitiously. He allowed it by allowing
free will. Free will means we get to be like God in that we have the
ability to choose good, evil or neutral options. And because of choices
made long ago, we are considered by Christians to be fallen people who live
in a fallen world. One in which all people have the capacity to do horrible
things to one another- and in which some people do. And a world in which
bad things happen in nature as well. In other words, humankind's fallenness
affects the earth's fallenness as well.

So Christians believe God allowed the Tsunami in that he allowed for the
choices that led to the fallen nature of humanity and the world in which we
live. But in the midst of that, you also see the good in people, the
choices that lead to life and restoration and peace. People are sacrificing
to send help, or to go themselves and be part of the answer. From our
perspective, it's a huge tragedy that so many died so early and that so many
more are suffering.

From God's perspective, the suffering and death is a tragedy. But we all
die. The only issue is when. And these people left earth now rather than
in a few short years. And now many have peace who maybe didn't just a week
ago. People who were concerned with bills and health issues and working and
relationships breaking-up and all the rest- no longer have to deal with
those things. Young children who may have never known that kind of pressure
now maybe know absolute peace and joy.

Just a few thoughts.

On topic- I'm heading out for my 20-miler today. I need to do 2 "20's"
before the 'thon on Feb. 6. Hoping the Tampa Bay Marathon won't toast my
melon. I hear it's pretty freakin' hot there.

Brian

bikeme said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
:
: bikeme wrote:
: > <[email hidden]> wrote in message
: > news:[email hidden]...
: > :
: > : carver wrote:
: > : > goodboy <[email hidden]> wrote in
: > : news:Xns95CEC5136FEC6nospamcharternet@
: > : > 69.28.186.121:
: > : >
: > : > > Why?? What is he saying? He does not like the idolant
: > : > > sloths laying around on the beach!
: > : > >
: > : > >
: > : >
: > : > YOU ARE AN INDOLANT JACKASS!
: > :
: > : You may not like his ANSWER, but it's a very good philosophical
: > : and religious QUESTION!
: > :
: > : A well-known expression for someone who died from doing
: > : something extremely stupid is that "Darwin took him away
: > : to improve the gene pool" or something to that effect.
: > : Darwin (of the Theory of Evolution) was given as a reason.
: > :
: > : Of course that would NOT apply to the present disaster.
: > : And even if it did, it would violate certain Christians'
: > : belief (such as the Southern Baptists in the USA) who
: > : even tries to legislate against the TEACHING of Darwin's
: > : THEORY of Evolution!
: > :
: > : So, on the SERIOUS side, what do each of the RELIGIOUS
: > : groups/sects/demominations have to say WHY did god/christ/
: > : allah/buddha/etc. allow this to happen (to obviously
: > : thousands of INNOCENT victims)?
: >
: > I like the way the question is worded: "Why did god...ALLOW this

to

Quoted message said:

: happen?"
: > Hits the nail right on the head. God didn't cause it. He's not
: gleefully
: > rubbing his hands together and cackling in joy at all the pain

and

Quoted message said:

: > suffering. But he did allow it- surreptitiously.
:
: So far I can buy your religious rhetoric, though somme of it is
: highly debatable.
:
: > He allowed it by allowing free will.
:
: This is where your pedantic argument went completely astray. Free

will

Quoted message said:

: to choose whether to have the earthquake and tsunamis or not????
:
: Surely you jest.
:
:
: > So Christians believe God allowed the Tsunami in that he allowed

for

Quoted message said:

: the
: > choices that led to the fallen nature of humanity and the world

in

Quoted message said:

: which we
: > live.
:
: By indiscriminantly killing the innocent and the "good" as well as
: those that caused the "fallen nature of humanity"?
:
:
: > From God's perspective,
:
: Jeez, now you have positioned yourself as God's spokesman.
:
:
: I am feeling ILL!
:
: > Just a few thoughts.
:
: Sounds a a few regurgitation of religious gobbledy [censored] without
: any critical thought to me.
:
: >
: > On topic- I'm heading out for my 20-miler today.
: >
: > Brian
:
: Good for you. I am running downstair to throw up from some of your
: "thoughts". :-)
:
: -- Bob.
:
Let me try one more time. The nature of free will is that it always

affects

Quoted message said:

those who are innocent of the choices made by others. For instance,

a man

Quoted message said:

get's totally blitzed one night and get's in his car to drive home.

One the

Quoted message said:

way, he wrecks and takes out a family of four on their way home from

a

Quoted message said:

baseball game. What did they do to deserve it? Nothing.

But, because we are all interconnected, the nature of free will

demands that

Quoted message said:

we will always affect others with our choices.

Thanks for trying. But all you have managed to convey to me is
that you have a very peculiar interpretation of "free will", even
for a religion-indoctrinated mind.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand, the concept of grace is also completely unfair...

Perhaps that's why there are over 300 different sects of Baptists
alone, because everyone can (ab)use the 'bible' and make whatever
they want out of it, however illogical, self-contradicting, and
absurd the conclusions may be. Religious justice is an oxymoron.

That's why the cliche is very true:

Don't disucss POLITICS, RELIGION, or SEX.

because you'll only be going in circles getting nowhere.
-- Bob.

Monday, as the scope of the Indian Ocean tragedy became apparent, I
commented (quite seriously) to a co-worker that, within 24 hours, the
United States would, directly or indirectly, be blamed for this horrific
"natural" disaster. Turns out I was right (and not too proud of it
either). First, there was the charge that we didn't try hard enough to
warn the affected region of a possible tsunami threat when we detected
the seismic disturbance (are we the only ones monitoring these events?).
Not that it would have done any good, since the countries of the region
had shown no serious interest in even a rudimentary warning system.
Then, there was that twit from the Netherlands who felt entitled to a
blank check from all the major economic powers even before the scope of
the disaster had been accertained. As to your naive view that Bush
quietly "fiddled while Rome burned" for 4 days; do you think that the
victims and their families give a whit as to whether or not there was
some empassioned, tearful, choreographed press event? My guess is that
the past 4 days have been rather intense for the President, as the
administration has tried to discern the most appropriate (and effective)
course of action and distribution of aid.
For the "blame America first crowd" anything we do (anywhere) will be
seen as "too little, too late. Fortunately, we "Christian Conservatives"
are usually able to ignore the "petty gripes of petty people" and
concentrate on the daunting business of responding to the needs that
disaster circumstances present.

Tony wrote: (Snip)

Quoted message said:

To the Christian conservatives like Bush it's a sign of the end times right.
Maybe that's why it took him 4 days to come out of his ranch house to
express his sympathy. That sluggish gesture won't be lost on the Muslims
over in that part of the world. No matter what the US does now to help it
will be seen as too little too late.

--
Quality is a function of design, materials, and craftsmanship.
Inspection can only confirm quality or reveal deficiencies.
In no case, can quality be inspected into anything.

Oh the poor lil [censored] is jealous. Isn't that cute.

Doug Freese said:

I'm not sure it's because he/they don't have a clue(or care) or our US
economics are in such deep [censored] and spiraling lower that spare change
will crush him. Hmmm, how much debt will this second Viet Nam cost!

-DF

Who cares, but did you see the thighs on that victoria secret model that survived!
God was watchin out for that [censored]!

M.T.

I was speaking to impressions. Any other President in recent memory would
have come out and spoken on the same day or at the very least the day after
such an event and expressed support and sympathy. I don't doubt our
government is and was doing a great deal from the beginning to help the
relief effort, more than any other country in fact. Also I never 'blamed
America first' or at all. However, the appearance of insensitivity does
matter in the long run given that the public perception of the US has been
in a serious decline for several years now. If you consider me a petty
person for saying that perceptions matter - as this President well knows as
evidenced by his very public efforts after the Florida hurricanes - I think
you're missing the point.

The remark about Christian conservatives perhaps believing this natural
disaster might be a sign of the end times is a side comment to the main
point. I personally don't believe for one minute that Mr. Bush spent much
time personally on this disaster, as that's not his style, and I wouldn't
care if he did or not. I'm sure he directed others to do things, but his
ongoing brusque public style is clearly exacerbating the decline in public
opinion of the US throughout the world. Of this there can be little doubt.

-Tony

Wayne Conway wrote in message <4mYAd.3883$4h.1713@okepread03>...

Quoted message said:

Monday, as the scope of the Indian Ocean tragedy became apparent, I
commented (quite seriously) to a co-worker that, within 24 hours, the
United States would, directly or indirectly, be blamed for this horrific
"natural" disaster. Turns out I was right (and not too proud of it
either). First, there was the charge that we didn't try hard enough to
warn the affected region of a possible tsunami threat when we detected
the seismic disturbance (are we the only ones monitoring these events?).
Not that it would have done any good, since the countries of the region
had shown no serious interest in even a rudimentary warning system.
Then, there was that twit from the Netherlands who felt entitled to a
blank check from all the major economic powers even before the scope of
the disaster had been accertained. As to your naive view that Bush
quietly "fiddled while Rome burned" for 4 days; do you think that the
victims and their families give a whit as to whether or not there was
some empassioned, tearful, choreographed press event? My guess is that
the past 4 days have been rather intense for the President, as the
administration has tried to discern the most appropriate (and effective)
course of action and distribution of aid.
For the "blame America first crowd" anything we do (anywhere) will be
seen as "too little, too late. Fortunately, we "Christian Conservatives"
are usually able to ignore the "petty gripes of petty people" and
concentrate on the daunting business of responding to the needs that
disaster circumstances present.

Tony wrote: (Snip)

Quoted message said:

To the Christian conservatives like Bush it's a sign of the end times

right.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe that's why it took him 4 days to come out of his ranch house to
express his sympathy. That sluggish gesture won't be lost on the Muslims
over in that part of the world. No matter what the US does now to help

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

will be seen as too little too late.

--
Quality is a function of design, materials, and craftsmanship.
Inspection can only confirm quality or reveal deficiencies.
In no case, can quality be inspected into anything.

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:PmJAd.14780$152.478@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

goodboy wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Why?? What is he saying? He does not like the idolant
sloths laying around on the beach!

To the Christian conservatives like Bush it's a sign of the end times

right.

Quoted message said:

Maybe that's why it took him 4 days to come out of his ranch house to
express his sympathy. That sluggish gesture won't be lost on the Muslims
over in that part of the world. No matter what the US does now to help it
will be seen as too little too late.

Don't see the filthy rich Arabs helping out their brethrens. Anyway, better
stay away because the Indonesian army is continuing its campaign against
Muslim separatists in Aceh. Ah, what brotherly love.

ecliptic intersects the celestial equator at 0 hour of right ascension
and 0° ecliptic longitude is called March equirox or 1st point of
aries

2000 years it is in pisces now will pass into Aquarius in the year 2597
Ages of Aquaries

celestial equator
equator ever h of right asceabsion
eclipic every 15° ecliptic longitude
moon 10h26m47s
+12°29'17" december 31 2004
time 8:25 a.m.

300°less sun pluto venus mars 195° jupitor moon
saturn120°more

all these line up on the celestial equator areas.

interesting yes.

this curve. yes

just a backyard sky gazer not a pro.

2667 miles so far for 2004

looks like I stay here for year2004. lifted and back sore a little.

by ort Mi u.s.a. a little over 7.3 miles a day times 365 days. or 3.27
blocks. average 7.3 a day most all done on a bike out side 4 seasons.
2667 miles u.s.a........... Happy New Years 2005

Tom R Wheeler said:

ecliptic intersects the celestial equator at 0 hour of right

ascension

Quoted message said:

and 0° ecliptic longitude is called March equirox or 1st point of
aries

2000 years it is in pisces now will pass into Aquarius in the year

2597

Quoted message said:

Ages of Aquaries

celestial equator
equator ever h of right asceabsion
eclipic every 15° ecliptic longitude
moon 10h26m47s
+12°29'17" december 31 2004
time 8:25 a.m.

300°less sun pluto venus mars 195° jupitor moon
saturn120°more

all these line up on the celestial equator areas.

interesting yes.

this curve. yes

just a backyard sky gazer not a pro.

2667 miles so far for 2004

looks like I stay here for year2004. lifted and back sore a little.

by ort Mi u.s.a. a little over 7.3 miles a day times 365 days. or

3.27

Quoted message said:

blocks. average 7.3 a day most all done on a bike out side 4

seasons.

Quoted message said:

2667 miles u.s.a........... Happy New Years 2005

You are a Numerologist. Did I get that right?
Personally, i find Idiot Savants much more impressive.

-- Bob.

along the equator between 300° and 195° is Sun pluto venus
mars Jupiter moon earth and saturn. zenith.
very big scale. interesting.
julian time december 31 2004 1330
360° being around earth equator
tilt 25 °

rational math o.k.

simple terms to understand.
2597 age of aquarius
Now we in Pisces
2000 years ago, maybe Sagittarius.? or true.
Zodiac terms.

not a pro just a back yard sky gazer.

or contact.
e-mail. [email hidden]