Why 15 Seconds?

Lonnie Utah said:

From another thread....

Hey RD,

I ment to ask this earlier, but I want to know why you said 15 seconds in this one. I understand the concept, but I don't understand why 30-45-60 seconds wouldn't do the same thing. I don't think my heart would stablize in 30-60 seconds either (2-3 mins most likely). Fifteen seconds almost seems like too much variance tp me. Can you (or anybody else) explain?

Lonnie,

It's due to training the neuromuscular system in an effort to match the demads of a crit. Using the training specificity principle, research of power files has shown that a 15 sec on 15 sec off workout remarkably resembles the effort required in a crit. Crit accelerations are much more likely to be shorter efforts due to turns and responses to other riders' accelerations. True another rider's acceleration might last 30-60 seconds, but if you're following wheels, it may only take a 15 sec effort to "glue up" to a wheel, then your power requirement will decrease.

It seems like alot of variance because it is alot of variance...but that's criterium racing!

Lonnie Utah said:

I want to know why you said 15 seconds in this one. I understand the concept, but I don't understand why 30-45-60 seconds wouldn't do the same thing.

In addition to Lazy Llama's comments above, limiting the "on" efforts to 15s exploits the half-life lag of your aerobic response. You could certainly do 30, 45 or 60 second "on" efforts, but you would have an NP higher than AP which might cause you to drop the P base power level down from 90%FT to something less than that. The main payoff to this workout is the neuromuscular adaptation Lazy Llama discussed, so the 15s "on" workout is the best option. But, take my word for it, this workout will be a [censored] the first time you try it, even at the low end of L4. The first time I tried it, I finished the ride feeling like a whipped dog. The only good news is that if you do 2-3 hours of this workout format over the course of a couple of weeks, you'll find the neuromuscular demands of a crit much more tolerable.

Lonnie Utah said:

I don't think my heart would stablize in 30-60 seconds either (2-3 mins most likely). Fifteen seconds almost seems like too much variance to me. Can you (or anybody else) explain?

Your HR will definitely not stablize in 15s. Best to forget your HRM and ride this workout by RPE or speed (e.g., 27-28mph for the "on" efforts and 10-12mph for the "off" efforts).

The 15s off is too short for that objective. You don't need to simulate the race to get better at one aspect of it. To train the neuromuscular more effectively there needs to be more rest so that the effort can rely more on the muscle "strength" and/or anaerobic abilities without being limited by aerobic issues.

Early in my season I do 10" on/50" off in blocks of 5-6, and 2-5 blocks. The 10" accelerations are done in the saddle for some blocks and out of the saddle for some blocks. Start with around 10 total for the session and work up to 30 in a session over a period of 4-8 weeks. I usually use 53x17 for the out of the saddle stuff and smaller gears for the in the saddle accelerations. You should probably start with a smaller gear. Don't worry about speeds, just acclerate quickly up to your normal racing cadence (90-100) or a little higher, and then go easy during the off portion.

Later you might try 15" on/45" off, to 30/30 but that starts to train other things and the focus on neuromuscular declines.

800+ criteriums and counting...

WarrenG said:

The 15s off is too short for that objective. You don't need to simulate the race to get better at one aspect of it. To train the neuromuscular more effectively there needs to be more rest so that the effort can rely more on the muscle "strength" and/or anaerobic abilities without being limited by aerobic issues.

Early in my season I do 10" on/50" off in blocks of 5-6, and 2-5 blocks. The 10" accelerations are done in the saddle for some blocks and out of the saddle for some blocks. Start with around 10 total for the session and work up to 30 in a session over a period of 4-8 weeks. I usually use 53x17 for the out of the saddle stuff and smaller gears for the in the saddle accelerations. You should probably start with a smaller gear. Don't worry about speeds, just acclerate quickly up to your normal racing cadence (90-100) or a little higher, and then go easy during the off portion.

Later you might try 15" on/45" off, to 30/30 but that starts to train other things and the focus on neuromuscular declines.

800+ criteriums and counting...

I got a lot of meaningful data and my best result in a 30+ windy crit, 1.2mi D shaped. The power spikes occur almost every minute, lasting about 10-20", and always variable in peak power. I lasted about 22 minutes before losing contact. I am convinced that this is the best way to train for a crit. I just need to extend my workouts to 45 minutes (intervals) from currently 20-25 minutes. I think I was reaching the anaerobic capacity at this point.

workingguy said:

I got a lot of meaningful data and my best result in a 30+ windy crit, 1.2mi D shaped. The power spikes occur almost every minute, lasting about 10-20", and always variable in peak power. I lasted about 22 minutes before losing contact. I am convinced that this is the best way to train for a crit. I just need to extend my workouts to 45 minutes (intervals) from currently 20-25 minutes. I think I was reaching the anaerobic capacity at this point.

I think the 10/50's are a good way to train for criteriums, if the accelerations are a weakness for you. (Personally, after doing the 10/50's in December and January I don't need them after that because I'm racing frequently and doing 30/30's as needed.) However, do you get dropped because you can't accelerate fast enough out of the corners, or because you don't recover well enough between the accelerations?

In that race you're only doing 1 acceleration each minute so that means that you still need to produce some power for the rest of the minute (should be aerobic) and you need to recover from each sprint (something that is helped with good aerobic development).

An hour after such a race, are your legs still tired? How about the next day?

WarrenG said:

I think the 10/50's are a good way to train for criteriums, if the accelerations are a weakness for you. (Personally, after doing the 10/50's in December and January I don't need them after that because I'm racing frequently and doing 30/30's as needed.) However, do you get dropped because you can't accelerate fast enough out of the corners, or because you don't recover well enough between the accelerations?

In that race you're only doing 1 acceleration each minute so that means that you still need to produce some power for the rest of the minute (should be aerobic) and you need to recover from each sprint (something that is helped with good aerobic development).

An hour after such a race, are your legs still tired? How about the next day?

This was my first 30+ event. Compared to the 4/5 races, there seems to be less slowing in the corners, and therefore fewer hard acclerations, overall smoother.

Legs felt OK. I actually did family stuff after the race. The next day I did 3.5 hrs, 55mi, level 2-3 pace. So my legs feel like they always feel after race - like I could have done better. They definitely do not burn like after 2 x 10 min @ 260.

NP/AP for this race was 250/205 for 22 min. I have never done a 2x20 since I know I wouldn't be motivated enough for a true test. I'm guessing FTP to be somewhere around 230-240.

I'm thinking that recovery is my main issue. I see three main periods in my perceived effort - acceleration, tempo, recovery(coasting/cornering). I'm doing interval workouts with recovery at 130. I'm not able to recover well enough in a race. Part of the problem is that sitting in requires more power than recovery, more towards tempo/LT efforts. Guess that comes with training.

workingguy said:

This was my first 30+ event. Compared to the 4/5 races, there seems to be less slowing in the corners, and therefore fewer hard acclerations, overall smoother.

Legs felt OK. I actually did family stuff after the race. The next day I did 3.5 hrs, 55mi, level 2-3 pace. So my legs feel like they always feel after race - like I could have done better. They definitely do not burn like after 2 x 10 min @ 260.

NP/AP for this race was 250/205 for 22 min. I have never done a 2x20 since I know I wouldn't be motivated enough for a true test. I'm guessing FTP to be somewhere around 230-240.

I'm thinking that recovery is my main issue. I see three main periods in my perceived effort - acceleration, tempo, recovery(coasting/cornering). I'm doing interval workouts with recovery at 130. I'm not able to recover well enough in a race. Part of the problem is that sitting in requires more power than recovery, more towards tempo/LT efforts. Guess that comes with training.

IMO, all of your answers point to the probability that your main weakness is your FTP. If your legs felt very tired then I would have leaned more towards the neuromuscular aspect. Those were some hard acclerations, but your graph shows that you had to work in between the accelerations.

Here in NorCal, my experience shows it would take an FTP closer to 260-300 (depending on your size, skills, etc.) to hang with the 30+ 1,2,3's in a criterium. It sounds like that's about where you need to be too. Of course, once you get there the 4/5's races will be even more fun!

[quote="workingguy"]NP/AP for this race was 250/205 for 22 min. I have never done a 2x20 since I know I wouldn't be motivated enough for a true test. I'm guessing FTP to be somewhere around 230-240.

I'm thinking that recovery is my main issue. QUOTE]

If you did 250 NP for 22 minutes, and your FTP is estimated at 230 - 240, it is no wonder that you got dropped.

My thought is that your FTP is your main issue. I don't think there is anything else that you can do to stay in a race of this intensity other than raising that FTP...

Think SST, Threshold and a smattering of VO2Max...

Just my .02...

Jim

Lazy Llama said:

It's due to training the neuromuscular system in an effort to match the demads of a crit. Using the training specificity principle, research of power files has shown that a 15 sec on 15 sec off workout remarkably resembles the effort required in a crit.

Actually, the popularity (if you can say that they're popular) of 15 s on/off microintervals stems from the fact that that's what has been used in scientific studies, and I talk about them a lot because they serve to nicely illustrate the impact of physiological "inertia" on responses to variations in power output. I've never personally claimed that they resemble what happens in a criterium*, and I've never recommended them to anyone for that (or any other) reason.

*I know, I know, it's in the book...but as I told Hunter, any resemblance between the files presented stems from the fact that the race data were recorded at only 5 s intervals...