UK and Europe · Public discussion

Who is Jesus?

Started by moslim · · Last activity · 13 posts · 492 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
UK and Europe
Published
8 March 2007
Last activity
11 March 2007
Original author
moslim
Posts
13
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
492
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–13 of 13
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the
    second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible which is
    used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for
    doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim. We urge you to
    consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are
    not drawn out of context:

    1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
    When speaking of the day of judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a
    limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour
    knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the
    son, but the Father." Mark 13:32, and Matt 24:36. But God knows all.
    His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own
    admission, did not know when the day of judgment would be, is clear
    proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not
    God.

    2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
    While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the
    power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said,
    "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but
    what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can
    of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgment is
    just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father
    which hath sent me." St. John 5:30. But God is not only all-powerful,
    He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his
    own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus
    is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

    3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.
    God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call
    upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one
    whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto
    my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John
    20:17. He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My
    God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God,
    then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken
    me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's
    prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of
    Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup
    pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt." Matt
    26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own
    admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed
    to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

    4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
    While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that
    this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at
    any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at any
    time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John
    4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in
    spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or
    heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is
    clear proof that Jesus was not God.

    5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus
    acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from
    his own.
    Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not
    equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth
    of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater
    than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17,
    Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but
    one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions
    between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from
    God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus
    gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his
    equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine
    be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will
    of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did
    not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do
    so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself,
    and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the
    will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One
    and therefore Jesus is not God.

    Conclusion
    The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge
    about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is
    not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what
    basis have you come to believe otherwise?

    My brother or sister, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity
    is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as
    presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

    If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to
    Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

    What is the word of God about Jesus:

    A. Regarding Sonship of Jesus:
    That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they
    are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to
    Him! When He decrees a thing he but says to it "Be", and it is.
    (Qur'an 19:34,35).

    And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You
    have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent
    of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall
    down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful a son;
    and it behoves not the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in
    the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant
    (Qur'an 19:88-93).

    Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He
    created him of dust, then said He unto him, "Be", and he was. (Qur'an
    3:59).

    People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say
    not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only
    the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a
    spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers. and say not,
    'Three', Refrain, better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be
    on Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs that which is in
    the heavens and on the earth, God suffices for a guardian. (Qur'an
    4:171)

    B. Regarding Jesus being God:
    And when God said. 'O Jesus son of Mary,did you say unto men, "Take me
    and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He Said, 'To You be Glory! It
    is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You
    knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is
    within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what
    You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a
    witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take
    me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness of
    everything. (Quran 5:116,117)

    C. Regarding Crucifiction of Jesus:
    And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty
    calumny, and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of
    Mary, the Messenger of God'...yet they did not slay him, neither
    crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who
    are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him, they
    have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they
    did not slay him of certainty... no indeed, God raised him up to Him;
    God is Almighty, All-Wise. There is not one of the people of the Book
    but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the
    Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them. (Qur'an 4:156-159)

  2. moslim said:

    If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to
    Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

    Oh Gawd[1], save us from the devout; they are insufferable bores.

    I went looking for how Islam regards the bicycle, and ran into several accounts
    of suicide bombers using bikes as transportation (sometimes unsuccessfully, as
    the road was too bumpy <bang!>😉. Bloody depressing stuff.

    But this story was humbling & amazing. Dzhanar-Aliyev Magomed-Ali -- respect!

    http://www.qmt.org.au/news+article.storyid+208.htm

    [1] FSM, peas be upon Him

  3. "moslim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Who is Jesus?

    He used to live with some friends of mine and went by the mortal name of
    'Phil'

    Quoted message said:

    If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to
    Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

    *burns embassy*

  4. moslim said:

    Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the
    second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible which is
    used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for
    doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim. We urge you to
    consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are
    not drawn out of context:

    1. God is All Knowing.....but Jesus was not
    When speaking of the day of judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a
    limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour
    knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the
    son, but the Father." Mark 13:32, and Matt 24:36. But God knows all.
    His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own
    admission, did not know when the day of judgment would be, is clear
    proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not
    God.

    2. God is All Powerful.....but Jesus was not
    While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the
    power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said,
    "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but
    what he seeth the Father do..." St. John 5:19. Again he said, "I can
    of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgment is
    just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father
    which hath sent me." St. John 5:30. But God is not only all-powerful,
    He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his
    own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus
    is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

    3. God does not have a God.....but Jesus did have a God.
    God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call
    upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one
    whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "l ascend unto
    my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." St. John
    20:17. He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My
    God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" Matt 27:46. If Jesus were God,
    then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself why hast thou forsaken
    me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's
    prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of
    Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup
    pass from me: Nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt." Matt
    26:36-39. Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own
    admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed
    to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

    4. God is an invisible spirit.....but Jesus was flesh and blood
    While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that
    this could not be done with God when he said. "No man hath seen God at
    any time." St. John 1:18. '"Ye have neither heard His voice at any
    time nor seen His shape." St. John 5:37. He also said in St. John
    4:24. "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in
    spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or
    heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is
    clear proof that Jesus was not God.

    5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him but Jesus
    acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from
    his own.
    Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not
    equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth
    of Jesus himself who said in St. John 14:28, "My Father is greater
    than I." When someone referred to him as good master in Matt 19:17,
    Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but
    one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions
    between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from
    God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." St. John 8:42. Jesus
    gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his
    equality with God,when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine
    be done" and in St. John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will
    of the Father which hath sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did
    not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do
    so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself,
    and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the
    will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One
    and therefore Jesus is not God.

    Conclusion
    The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge
    about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is
    not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what
    basis have you come to believe otherwise?

    My brother or sister, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity
    is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as
    presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

    If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to
    Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

    What is the word of God about Jesus:

    A. Regarding Sonship of Jesus:
    That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they
    are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to
    Him! When He decrees a thing he but says to it "Be", and it is.
    (Qur'an 19:34,35).

    And they say, 'The All-merciful has taken unto Himself a son.' You
    have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent
    of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall
    down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful a son;
    and it behoves not the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in
    the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant
    (Qur'an 19:88-93).

    Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He
    created him of dust, then said He unto him, "Be", and he was. (Qur'an
    3:59).

    People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say
    not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only
    the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a
    spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers. and say not,
    'Three', Refrain, better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be
    on Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs that which is in
    the heavens and on the earth, God suffices for a guardian. (Qur'an
    4:171)

    B. Regarding Jesus being God:
    And when God said. 'O Jesus son of Mary,did you say unto men, "Take me
    and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He Said, 'To You be Glory! It
    is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You
    knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is
    within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what
    You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a
    witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take
    me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness of
    everything. (Quran 5:116,117)

    C. Regarding Crucifiction of Jesus:
    And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty
    calumny, and for their saying, 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of
    Mary, the Messenger of God'...yet they did not slay him, neither
    crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who
    are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him, they
    have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they
    did not slay him of certainty... no indeed, God raised him up to Him;
    God is Almighty, All-Wise. There is not one of the people of the Book
    but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the
    Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them. (Qur'an 4:156-159)

    Go away......


  5. Quoted message said:
    moslim said:

    If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to
    Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

    Jesus was a [censored], from an affair between Mary and the gardener, because
    Joseph wasn't able to get it up, Mary claimed in was a virgin birth so as
    not to let Joseph know she was having an affair.

    And the idiot believed her!

  6. "Alan Holmes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:
    moslim said:

    If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to
    Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

    Jesus was a [censored], from an affair between Mary and the gardener, because
    Joseph wasn't able to get it up, Mary claimed in was a virgin birth so as
    not to let Joseph know she was having an affair.

    And the idiot believed her!


    Not to mention a few hundred million others!

  7. In article <[email hidden]>,
    [email hidden] says...

    Quoted message said:

    Go away......


    Congratulations for reposting the entire original post, which my news
    service provider had helpfully blocked as spam.

  8. Alan Holmes said:


    Quoted message said:
    moslim said:

    If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to
    Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

    Jesus was a [censored],

    Yebbut, at least he rode a really cool bike!

    http://www.geocities.com/deadbabybikes/Realbj.jpg

    I would have published a picture of Islam's most revered human driving a Hummer,
    but the local muslim hoodie 'round the corner informed me that if I did he would
    personally burn down my house, sell my children into slavery and feed my gonads
    to the camels. I should be thankful for this, he said, because I'd be that much
    closer to paradise.

    I had no idea that Islam despised 4x4s so much. Can't be all bad, I guess.

  9. Quoted message said:

    Yebbut, at least he rode a really cool bike!

    http://www.geocities.com/deadbabybikes/Realbj.jpg

    That must be a fake.
    It'd be a miracle if He could ride a bike in that dress.
    Anyway I find that photo deeply offensive.
    Jesus always used to wear a helmet and his bike had a bell and lights.

    Dave

  10. In news:[email hidden],
    Marc Brett <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell
    us:

    Quoted message said:

    I would have published a picture of Islam's most revered human
    driving a Hummer, but the local muslim hoodie 'round the corner
    informed me that if I did he would personally burn down my house,
    sell my children into slavery and feed my gonads to the camels. I
    should be thankful for this, he said, because I'd be that much closer
    to paradise.

    I had no idea that Islam despised 4x4s so much. Can't be all bad, I
    guess.

    I suspect it's the USAnian part he's objecting to rather than the number of
    driven wheels. Not for nothing is the 4wd Toyota Hi-Lux pickup also known
    as the Taliban Taxi :-)

    --
    Dave Larrington
    <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
    Where's the gin?

  11. Marc Brett said:
    Alan Holmes said:


    Quoted message said:

    On 7 Mar 2007 21:34:25 -0800, "moslim" <[email hidden]> wrote:

    > If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to
    > Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

    Jesus was a [censored],

    Yebbut, at least he rode a really cool bike!

    http://www.geocities.com/deadbabybikes/Realbj.jpg

    I would have published a picture of Islam's most revered human driving
    a Hummer,
    but the local muslim hoodie 'round the corner informed me that if I did
    he would
    personally burn down my house,

    I don't think Muhamad had the hand eye co-ordination required to drive,
    by the way
    isn't the net just a despot for the infidel? He will have to scrub his
    feet after posting
    here.
    --
    Three wheels good, two wheels ok

    www.catrike.co.uk

  12. Dave Larrington said:

    In news:[email hidden],
    Marc Brett <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell
    us:

    Quoted message said:

    I had no idea that Islam despised 4x4s so much. Can't be all bad, I
    guess.

    I suspect it's the USAnian part he's objecting to rather than the number of
    driven wheels. Not for nothing is the 4wd Toyota Hi-Lux pickup also known
    as the Taliban Taxi :-)

    Ah, but those 4x4s are employed as they are *supposed* to be used: offroad,
    doing important Talibanical work like burning down schoolhouses and murdering
    teachers. As a result they're seldom used, Chelsea Tractor-stylee, ferrying
    their precious daughters to school.

  13. moslim said:

    Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the
    second person in the "Holy trinity." However, the very Bible

    [Snip]

    Perhaps you should question your own religion this deeply before
    question the religions of others.[1]

    The word allah is derived from Arabic meaning "The one to be worshipped"
    [2]. This implies that there are many gods, and in fact preislamic
    culture in Mecca worshipped multiple gods. There is on going debate as
    to whether allah is really hubal, the Kaba moon god. [3]

    islam claims to be a religion of peace, but muhammad was anything but.
    In fact is was a violent[5][7] little [censored][6]

    [1] Being an atheist I am not religious.
    [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah
    [3] http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god-hubal.htm [4]
    [4] given the hosting of this site, it has to be viewed with the same
    scepticism as the OP's post.
    [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad
    [6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad#Childhood
    [7] http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Silas/wife-beating.htm

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.