Who does not use drugs?

In rec.bicycles.racing Doer said:

When I do a longish ride (80-100 Ks) I use XLR8, Occasionally a can of coke towards the end of the
ride, which really is a good "pick me up" for a short period. I now discover that the loudest
proponent against drugs in cycling has this "energy system" About ten K's before the end of a race
he will pop a No-Doz (Keep awake) pill and down a can of flat (Well shaken) coke. Now to me he is
as bad as any "dope head" in any peleton, professional or not.

Dude,

Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:

<groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
8&selm=3fe6b684%241%40darkstar&rnum=4>

or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.

Quoted message said:

To me doping is doping, but where does "doping' start? Am I a doper as I take substances that
increase my riding ability for a short while? I think many of us need to think carefully about
what we use ourselves before condemning any body else. Sure any illegal substance should be dealt
to, but just a note of caution about what we ourselves use.

You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical level
as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?

Benjamin Weiner said:

Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:

<groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
8&selm=3fe6b684%241%40darkstar&rnum=4>

or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.

Perhaps Steward will take the 5th Amendment when it comes to Kiwis having unhealthy obsessions :-)

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical
level as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?

You're operating at the most egregious extremes and acting like every situation is cut and dried.
The distinction is already very blurry.

Is it okay to take a no-doze half way through a race, because you recognize that caffeine has
performance enhancing properties that are advantageous? What about two or three no-doze? As long as
I don't violate the number in the [censored] test, I didn't cheat, right? Now, what if I decide to also
take ephedrine, but take it at a level that will be below that which will make you test positive at
the published limit? Is that cheating?

Now howabout testosterone: Endurance athletes are known to have testosterone levels drop over
the course of long events (e.g., a 10 day - 3 week tour). Is it okay for the team doctor to
monitor testosterone levels and, when they start to drop off, inject riders to bring them back
to normal levels?

Howabout blood boosters? If I take drugs that increase my hematocrit, but I don't exceed the 50%
rule, have I really broken the rules? What if I don't do any drugs, and I sleep in a hyperbaric
chamber and spike my hematocrit over 50, does that mean that I'm a cheater?

When you get right down to it, the only way to determine cheating from non-cheating is to compare
behavior and (where applicable) lab results to the letter of the rules, and where it is violative in
a specific, non-subjective manner, then its cheating. That's why the real trick is to write rules
that are enforceable and that make sense.

im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Jtn
im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.

Isn't EPO an OTC drug in some countries???

"hold my beer and watch this..." <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Is it okay to take a no-doze half way through a race, because you recognize that caffeine has
performance enhancing properties that are advantageous? What about two or three no-doze? As long
as I don't violate the number in the [censored] test, I didn't cheat, right?

Right.

JT

hold my beer and watch this... said:

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical
level as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?

You're operating at the most egregious extremes and acting like every situation is cut and dried.
The distinction is already very blurry.

Is it okay to take a no-doze half way through a race, because you recognize that caffeine has
performance enhancing properties that are advantageous? What about two or three no-doze? As long
as I don't violate the number in the [censored] test, I didn't cheat, right? Now, what if I decide to
also take ephedrine, but take it at a level that will be below that which will make you test
positive at the published limit? Is that cheating?

Now howabout testosterone: Endurance athletes are known to have testosterone levels drop over
the course of long events (e.g., a 10 day - 3 week tour). Is it okay for the team doctor to
monitor testosterone levels and, when they start to drop off, inject riders to bring them back
to normal levels?

Howabout blood boosters? If I take drugs that increase my hematocrit, but I don't exceed the 50%
rule, have I really broken the rules? What if I don't do any drugs, and I sleep in a hyperbaric
chamber and spike my hematocrit over 50, does that mean that I'm a cheater?

When you get right down to it, the only way to determine cheating from non-cheating is to compare
behavior and (where applicable) lab results to the letter of the rules, and where it is violative
in a specific, non-subjective manner, then its cheating.

I think you just answered your own questions.

Quoted message said:

That's why the real trick is to write rules that are enforceable and that make sense.

Today, the folks that go into that "business of writing the rules" aren't all that bright, or have
other objectives, which may or may not be public. Dream on.

Doer said:

I was at a club race meeting the other day and was listening to all the conversations about these
"Dope heads" in professional cycling. The most verbal rider was really going on about using drugs.
He loudly denounced all drug use. This started me thinking, When I do a longish ride (80-100 Ks) I
use XLR8, Occasionally a can of coke towards the end of the ride, which really is a good "pick me
up" for a short period. I now discover that the loudest proponent against drugs in cycling has
this "energy system" About ten K's before the end of a race he will pop a No-Doz (Keep awake) pill
and down a can of flat (Well shaken) coke. Now to me he is as bad as any "dope head" in any
peleton, professional or not.

Go and read what Eddie B used to recommend as "rocket fuel" for the last 30km of a 160km road
race... Caffeine is legal in 2004.

Benjamin Weiner said:

or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.

I have some in the bathroom cabinet, just like VDB. I never touched the stuff. It's for my
mother-in-law.

I know anecdotally that it is used in NZ races, even at club level. Who cares? It's legal
now anyway.

Donald Munro said:

Benjamin Weiner said:

Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:

<groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
8&selm=3fe6b684%241%40darkstar&rnum=4>

or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.

Perhaps Steward will take the 5th Amendment when it comes to Kiwis having unhealthy obsessions :-)

Bungee jumping, jet boating, mountain climbing, paragliding, heli-skiing, sheep shagging. 5 out of 6
of those activities are legal. As for obsessives, you should see the local Scrabble set...

leif_ericson said:

Jtn said:

im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over
the counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the
likes.

Isn't EPO an OTC drug in some countries???

WTF is Evening Primrose Oil gonna do to enhance performance? It might stop the hot flushes, but...

So when Rumsas said the EPO was for his mother-in-law, he could have been telling the truth...

"JTN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.

That would make Cellebrex illegal and 1-testosterone legal. Try again.

"JTN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
counter should be legal as long as your under the limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.

That's a good rule.

I also think that if you cut the course, it should only be illegal if

at the bar, it shouldn't be considered cheating if you wear a condom and no one finds out about it.

[censored]....obviously.....

if that maks 1-testo legal than it should be if you can take it without a doctors script.....

me personally, i only take cliff bars and r4, without a docs script of course. with a script i
couldnt begin to tell ya my doping habits.....

"Steven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"JTN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

im thinking illegal should mean anything that has to be given out by a doctor. anything over the
counter should be legal as long as your under

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

limit, I.e. caffeine., effies, the likes.

That would make Cellebrex illegal and 1-testosterone legal. Try again.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, that was clevvvvvor.... is it on the banned list????

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

WTF is Evening Primrose Oil gonna do to enhance performance? It might stop the hot flushes, but...

So when Rumsas said the EPO was for his mother-in-law, he could have been telling the truth...

"hold my beer and watch this..." <[email hidden]> on a [censored]'s night
out wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical
level as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?

Is it okay to take a no-doze half way through a race, because you

recognize

Quoted message said:

that caffeine has performance enhancing properties that are advantageous? What about two or three
no-doze? As long as I don't violate the number in the [censored] test, I didn't cheat, right? Now, what
if I decide to also take ephedrine, but take it at a level that will be below that which will make
you test positive at the published limit? Is that cheating?

If you believe that no-doz is a pick-me-up be my guest. If you think that ephidrine below the
levels that are illegal is going to give you a performance boost be my guest. But then you never
were very bright.

Quoted message said:

Now howabout testosterone: Endurance athletes are known to have

testosterone

Quoted message said:

levels drop over the course of long events (e.g., a 10 day - 3 week tour). Is it okay for the team
doctor to monitor testosterone levels and, when they start to drop off, inject riders to bring
them back to normal levels?

I would say that those who need testosterone boosting probably don't have any balls to begin with.

According to USADA, you're a doper.

"the use of an expedient (substance or method) which is potentially harmful to athletes’ health
and/or capable of enhancing their performance"

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Who does not use drugs? From: Benjamin Weiner [email hidden] Date: 1/30/2004
2:44 AM Eastern Standard Time Message-id: <401a195c$1@darkstar>

In rec.bicycles.racing Doer said:

When I do a longish ride (80-100 Ks) I use XLR8, Occasionally a can of coke towards the end of
the ride, which really is a good "pick me up" for a short period. I now discover that the loudest
proponent against drugs in cycling has this "energy system" About ten K's before the end of a
race he will pop a No-Doz (Keep awake) pill and down a can of flat (Well shaken) coke. Now to me
he is as bad as any "dope head" in any peleton, professional or not.

Dude,

Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:

<groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗

ing&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3fe6b684%241%40darkstar&rnum=4>

Quoted message said:

or you Kiwis really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz. Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling
here? Jeez. It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.

Quoted message said:

To me doping is doping, but where does "doping' start? Am I a doper as I take substances that
increase my riding ability for a short while? I think many of us need to think carefully about
what we use ourselves before condemning any body else. Sure any illegal substance should be dealt
to, but just a note of caution about what we ourselves use.

You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical
level as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?

Quoted message said:

Dude,

Either you are the same guy who posted this message last month about No-Doz and doping:or you Kiwis
really have an unhealthy obsession with No-Doz.Stewart Fleming, can we get a ruling here? Jeez.
It's just like drinking a cup of coffee, only not as enjoyable.

No I am not the same poster as last month and did not see his post.

Quoted message said:

You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical
level as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?

When it is used in a mid week club race it is to me. Mainly because of the need to use drugs in a
club event to me, seems pathetic.Mind you, you can get some powerful stuff over the counter today. I
understand the temptation in the bigger races for sure, but at club level? A need for a reality
check maybe. Doer.

hold my beer and watch this... said:

"Benjamin Weiner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You're blurring a distinction, like between over the counter medication and abusing prescription
drugs for one thing. Do you really think popping a No-Doz and flat coke is on the same ethical
level as bulking up on steroids or sludging up on EPO?

Quoted message said:

You're operating at the most egregious extremes and acting like every situation is cut and dried.
The distinction is already very blurry.

Quoted message said:

Is it okay to take a no-doze half way through a race, because you recognize that caffeine has
performance enhancing properties that are advantageous? What about two or three no-doze? As long
as I don't violate the number in the [censored] test, I didn't cheat, right? Now, what if I decide to
also take ephedrine, but take it at a level that will be below that which will make you test
positive at the published limit? Is that cheating?

Well, as TK (gasp) pointed out, if the rules and limits are done right, then taking such a tiny
amount of ephedrine that you're under the limit will have no performance enhancing effect anyway -
it's just homeopathy.

You raise a good point, which I think JFT answered well. Of course there are blurry areas - how do
we justify the difference between legal and illegal enhancers (caffeine, vs testosterone)? We make
appeals to principles, such as that athletes shouldn't feel compelled to take substances that may be
illegal or harmful. Anyone can come up with examples that may make the principles look distorted or
bogus, but they're all we've got.

But the OP didn't ask about any of this sophisticated ethics stuff. He asked if someone who pops a
No-Doz has any right to criticize riders who get busted for doping, and by extension whether any of
us are pure enough to criticize, say, dumbass pros like that guy that got popped for EPO twice last
year. That's a [censored] level of moral equivalency.

Quoted message said:

Now howabout testosterone: Endurance athletes are known to have testosterone levels drop over
the course of long events (e.g., a 10 day - 3 week tour). Is it okay for the team doctor to
monitor testosterone levels and, when they start to drop off, inject riders to bring them back
to normal levels?

Quoted message said:

Howabout blood boosters? If I take drugs that increase my hematocrit, but I don't exceed the 50%
rule, have I really broken the rules? What if I don't do any drugs, and I sleep in a hyperbaric
chamber and spike my hematocrit over 50, does that mean that I'm a cheater?

Quoted message said:

When you get right down to it, the only way to determine cheating from non-cheating is to compare
behavior and (where applicable) lab results to the letter of the rules, and where it is violative
in a specific, non-subjective manner, then its cheating. That's why the real trick is to write
rules that are enforceable and that make sense.

I agree, but this argument is also somewhat circular - you need some kind of principle to underlie
the rules.