Who causes congestion again?

On 23 Oct 2006 07:18:17 -0700, "spindrift" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Highway_Robbery?OpenDocument

This is a great and thought provoking piece.

Not really, as it has obvious flaws in that the bus congestion, if
there is any, would come from the stopping of the bus, not the
moving... So that would need addressing...

Jim.

spindrift wrote:

We all /know/ who causes congestion, at least we do if we are honest
about it. It certainly isn't the victim of it.

Quoted message said:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Highway_Robbery?OpenDocument
This is a great and thought provoking piece.

LOL. Duplicity springs to mind.

When was the last time you saw more than 2 or 3 passengers on a bus
outside of London?

What are the chances that the journeys of those 35 all started on, and
will finish on, the same bus route?

Where do taxis fit into this comparison?

--
Matt B

Jim Ley said:

On 23 Oct 2006 07:18:17 -0700, "spindrift" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Highway_Robbery?OpenDocument

This is a great and thought provoking piece.

Not really, as it has obvious flaws in that the bus congestion, if
there is any, would come from the stopping of the bus, not the
moving... So that would need addressing...

Jim.True, but on my commute I pass seven miles worth of cars, 99% with one, solitary occupant.

Matt B said:

When was the last time you saw more than 2 or 3 passengers on a bus
outside of London?

If I was staring out my office window instead of browsing u.r.c, about
every ten minutes.
Likewise for my front room at home.

...d

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Highway_Robbery?OpenDocument

This is a great and thought provoking piece.

Apologies if it's a re-post.

Conveniently misses out the fact that bus lanes are often empty, as are
buses (or almost empty), and are thus wasted space.

Doki said:

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Highway_Robbery?OpenDocument

This is a great and thought provoking piece.

Apologies if it's a re-post.

Conveniently misses out the fact that bus lanes are often empty, as are
buses (or almost empty), and are thus wasted space.

and that even a modest sized car can carry 4 passengers as well as the
driver, an MPV can normally carry 6 passengers as well as the driver.

The ideal solution is pooling.

Doki said:

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Highway_Robbery?OpenDocument

This is a great and thought provoking piece.

Apologies if it's a re-post.

Conveniently misses out the fact that bus lanes are often empty, as are
buses (or almost empty), and are thus wasted space.

Got a source for that?

Like this:

Buses carry 5.4 million passengers a day up 19 per cent since
1999/2000.

London buses are carrying the highest number of passengers since 1969
with the fastest rate of passenger growth since 1945.

In 2002/03 alone passengers grew 7.3 per cent - an extra 104 million
passenger trips.

There has been 20 per cent growth in night bus passengers for 2003/04
and a 12 per cent growth in Sunday passengers year on year.

The bus system comprises 6,500 buses operating on over 700 different
routes each weekday.

http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/transport/buses.jsp

The sheer joy of cycling past lines and lines of cars, all with one,
solitary, frustrated over weight cager is immense.

"Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When was the last time you saw more than 2 or 3 passengers on a bus
outside of London?

Most of the time. Similarily with trains.

Certainly whenever I have used busses, which admittedly isn't that often,
they have had a fair few people on them, and that includes buses in the Lake
District and Pembrokeshire.

"Earl Purple" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doki said:

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Highway_Robbery?OpenDocument

This is a great and thought provoking piece.

Apologies if it's a re-post.

Conveniently misses out the fact that bus lanes are often empty, as are
buses (or almost empty), and are thus wasted space.

and that even a modest sized car can carry 4 passengers as well as the
driver, an MPV can normally carry 6 passengers as well as the driver.

Yes but how often do you see cars with 4 or 6 people in them?

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The sheer joy of cycling past lines and lines of cars, all with one,
solitary, frustrated over weight cager is immense.

I envy you in that respect. Whenever I cycle through Warnham I often have to
stop uphill every hundred yards or so to let oncoming traffic through
because the roadside parking has effectively reduced the road to single
track. It will get worse now the A24 is closed for three weeks.

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doki said:

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Highway_Robbery?OpenDocument

This is a great and thought provoking piece.

Apologies if it's a re-post.

Conveniently misses out the fact that bus lanes are often empty, as are
buses (or almost empty), and are thus wasted space.

Got a source for that?

My eyes. Plenty of bus lanes are empty most of the time (buses tend to come
once every 5 minutes at their most frequent, and at 20ish average MPH means
the bus lane is hardly clogged, and lots of bus lanes that are peak time
only are not used out of hours by drivers). Plenty of buses are empty or
near empty a lot of the time too (again, this fact was collected with my
eyes). And why on earth are taxis allowed in them - if I call a Taxi rather
than drive, the taxi has to come from the rank or office or where ever to my
house, take me where I want to go, go to the next fare or 6, then come back
and pick me up and then take me home, then go back to the rank / next fare
etc. That's obviously going to use more fuel than me driving from where I am
to where I want to go and back. You might not have noticed, but the Govt
only collect statistics that they want to collect.

Quoted message said:

Like this:

Buses carry 5.4 million passengers a day up 19 per cent since
1999/2000.

London buses are carrying the highest number of passengers since 1969
with the fastest rate of passenger growth since 1945.

In 2002/03 alone passengers grew 7.3 per cent - an extra 104 million
passenger trips.

There has been 20 per cent growth in night bus passengers for 2003/04
and a 12 per cent growth in Sunday passengers year on year.

The bus system comprises 6,500 buses operating on over 700 different
routes each weekday.

http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/transport/buses.jsp

That's London. London isn't the whole country, and people tend to use public
transport more in London than the rest of the UK (excepting maybe York,
which is also horrific to drive round).

Quoted message said:

The sheer joy of cycling past lines and lines of cars, all with one,
solitary, frustrated over weight cager is immense.

Speak for yourself; I normally manage it without writhing in pleasure.

"Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

When was the last time you saw more than 2 or 3 passengers on a bus
outside of London?

Loads of times every day while I walk past them on the way to work. If you
switch it round and ask when I last saw a bus with less than four, then I'd
answer that I really don't remember.

This is in Bath, which is right up there in terms of congestion problems.

In article <[email hidden]>

Doki said:

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Highway_Robbery?OpenDocument

This is a great and thought provoking piece.

Apologies if it's a re-post.

Conveniently misses out the fact that bus lanes are often empty, as are
buses (or almost empty), and are thus wasted space.

Where does this "empty bus" thing happen? Not here.

in message <[email hidden]>, Earl

Purple (') said:

Doki said:

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Highway_Robbery?OpenDocument

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is a great and thought provoking piece.

Apologies if it's a re-post.

Conveniently misses out the fact that bus lanes are often empty, as are
buses (or almost empty), and are thus wasted space.

and that even a modest sized car can carry 4 passengers as well as the
driver, an MPV can normally carry 6 passengers as well as the driver.

The ideal solution is pooling.

The ideal solution is road pricing, and it's what we will get, sooner or
later.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

<p>Schroedinger's cat is <blink><strong>NOT</strong></blink> dead.</p>

"Doki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The sheer joy of cycling past lines and lines of cars, all with one,
solitary, frustrated over weight cager is immense.

Speak for yourself; I normally manage it without writhing in pleasure.

You're doing it wrong then :-)

cheers,
clive

Doki said:

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in messagenews:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Highway_Robb...

Quoted message said:

This is a great and thought provoking piece.

Quoted message said:

Conveniently misses out the fact that bus lanes are often empty,

Which is rather the point of bus lanes - a clear, fast, unobstructed
run in for people on buses. It would all be particularly pointless if
the bus lanes were chocka!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as are buses (or almost empty), and are thus wasted space.

Some (but fewer and fewer) rural routes are run by subsidy rather than
100% fare-paying passengers but town and city routes have to stand on
their own economic feet. Bus lanes are not often found in on the rural
routes, I think you'll find.

Rob Morley said:

In article <[email hidden]>

Doki said:

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/web/public.nsf/Documents/Highway_Robbery?OpenDocument

This is a great and thought provoking piece.

Apologies if it's a re-post.

Conveniently misses out the fact that bus lanes are often empty, as are
buses (or almost empty), and are thus wasted space.

Where does this "empty bus" thing happen? Not here.

I believe it is a persistant urban legend among motorists 🙂
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Doki said:

And why on earth are taxis allowed in them - if I call a Taxi rather
than drive, the taxi has to come from the rank or office or where ever to my
house, take me where I want to go, go to the next fare or 6, then come back
and pick me up and then take me home, then go back to the rank / next fare
etc. That's obviously going to use more fuel than me driving from where I am
to where I want to go and back. You might not have noticed, but the Govt
only collect statistics that they want to collect.

Taxis are part of the transport mix; they're essential for getting from
A to B out of bus service hours or when you're in a rush. Taxis in bus
lanes serve two purposes. Firstly, it increases the utilisation of the
lane (stops the ABD wackos moaning about "empty bus lanes"😉. Secondly
it means we all have a choice of travel; fastish and cheap (bus),
maximum convenience but pricey (cab) or private but slow (car).

When considering taxis, it's not just a matter of fuel consumption
there are a range of other factors that make taxis a Good Thing. These
range from social inclusion through to the fact they don't have to be
left parked up as cars are while the driver shops or works. And town
centre development land is hugely expensive these days.

Not Responding said:

Some (but fewer and fewer) rural routes are run by subsidy rather than
100% fare-paying passengers but town and city routes have to stand on
their own economic feet.

Wrong. In 2004/05 the tax payer subsidised all local bus journeys to
the tune of about £1.5b. They /also/ get a fuel duty rebate.

Ref:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_transstats/documents/page/dft_transstats_609909.pdf

--
Matt B