Whither Pedal Steer

"Ohio Jerry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been thinking obout getting a tadpole trike and keep
reading about how much pedal steer a given trike has
or doesn't have.

Brake steer I can kind of understand, but what causes
pedal steer? Does the frame flex? Is it caused by
inadvertant handlebar movement caused by pushing
hard on the pedals?

Or what?

Is there any way to compensate for or eliminate it?

Pedal steer is caused by pedaling hard. Some tadpole trikes exhibit this
strange behavior more than others, but they all have it. Only very skillful
riders can avoid it. Most of the rest of us cannot.

The faster you go on a tadpole trike, the greater the pedal steer. Even the
fabled Greenspeed is not immune to this phenomenon. I find that LWB deltas
are much better in this regard. The secret to riding a tadpole trike is to
keep your speed down to about 15 mph. Above that, the pedal steer starts to
kick in, at least for me. I have seen tadpole trikes practically veer into
traffic at speed the riders had so little control. Just keep your speed down
and you will be fine. Anyone who wants to be fast should be on a two-wheeler
anyway.

By the way, there are many excellent articles on tadpole trikes in the
latest issue of RCN. Highly recommended reading for anyone who might be
interested in these kind of trikes.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

Edward Dolan said:

"Ohio Jerry" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been thinking obout getting a tadpole trike and keep
reading about how much pedal steer a given trike has
or doesn't have.

Brake steer I can kind of understand, but what causes
pedal steer? Does the frame flex? Is it caused by
inadvertant handlebar movement caused by pushing
hard on the pedals?

Or what?

Is there any way to compensate for or eliminate it?

Pedal steer is caused by pedaling hard. Some tadpole trikes exhibit this
strange behavior more than others, but they all have it. Only very skillful
riders can avoid it. Most of the rest of us cannot.

The faster you go on a tadpole trike, the greater the pedal steer. Even the
fabled Greenspeed is not immune to this phenomenon. I find that LWB deltas
are much better in this regard. The secret to riding a tadpole trike is to
keep your speed down to about 15 mph. Above that, the pedal steer starts to
kick in, at least for me. I have seen tadpole trikes practically veer into
traffic at speed the riders had so little control. Just keep your speed down
and you will be fine. Anyone who wants to be fast should be on a two-wheeler
anyway.

By the way, there are many excellent articles on tadpole trikes in the
latest issue of RCN. Highly recommended reading for anyone who might be
interested in these kind of trikes.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

I would tend to disagree on this, although no offence intended ED, that
speed is the main factor in pedal steer. Try a lower gear and higher
cadence, not the same necessarily as when you grind out the big gears
with the 62T chainring.

Also pedal steer can be tuned down at the manufacture stage by altering
the steering geometry. Yes even Greenspeed have pedal steer but they
have generally got their steering right and have considered pedal steer
but felt that to go the whole way with kingpins and such would cost to
much for handling performance. I know that they have consulted other
trike manufacturers before considering this on recent trike designs.

Having raced my GTR trike at 55km/h and spent many an afternoon happily
bombing down hills at 85km/h I can tell you that pedal steer fades into
the background when the road ahead is rushing at you. You don't notice
it, it isn't a great factor, not an issue that should stop you buying a
tadpole trike instead of a delta.

Back to Ohio Jerry's query you should also remember that pedal steer is
a factor in upright bikes also, just that one of the first things that
you learn when first riding a bike (how long ago was that?) is the
minute movements of the handlebars to compensate. Tadpole trikes
wouldn't have a greater pedal steer factor than delta trikes if they
didn't have that crankset sticking way out in front of the frame on a
boom, but as I said, there are other factors in the design of the
tadpole trike that you are looking at that may affect this.

Designing trikes and getting the steering right I will leave to the
experts. My lowracer has eliminated pedal steer and all other steer, it
only travels in nice straight lines, no corners please, due to the
chainline. Simplicity.

Dave Doust. AU.

P.S slowing down because you are afraid of pedal steer at high speed is
time wasted looking at too little passing scenery. Scenery should be a
blur, except for toilet breaks.

Ohio Jerry said:

I've been thinking obout getting a tadpole trike and keep
reading about how much pedal steer a given trike has
or doesn't have.

Brake steer I can kind of understand, but what causes
pedal steer? Does the frame flex? Is it caused by
inadvertant handlebar movement caused by pushing
hard on the pedals?

Or what?

Is there any way to compensate for or eliminate it?

Thanks.
Jerry

Having owned 4 tadpoles let me assure you that they all do not have
it. One engineering type friend says he believes it is frame flex
induce by mashing. In general he agrees with all your points.

There seems to be a connection to just how far forward the pedals are
in relation to the front wheels.

Learning to pedal correctly, that is to say, spin lightly, rather than
mash the pedals, helps a lot. A higher cadence doesn't hurt either,
but is not required.

Trikes are a gas, I've just about stopped riding two wheels, but they,
like bikes are compromises. I started at the budget end of trike
models and found them unsatisfactory. Without question, the Hellbent
Spitfire RS24, which has some pedal steer, but excellent in road
handling details, and the Windcheetah Supersport, a thoroughbred that
shows clearly it 20 years of development, are head and shoulders above
the budget trikes, but then they cost twice as much.

The Supersport offers almost no noticeable pedal steer

Quoted message said:

Having owned 4 tadpoles let me assure you that they all do not have
it. One engineering type friend says he believes it is frame flex
induce by mashing.

My 'bent bike suffers from pedal steer... *if* I mash. Change down and
spin, problem goes away.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Somewhat atypically on topic but off base, Mr. Dolan diligently
disseminated dis information:

Quoted message said:

The faster you go on a tadpole trike, the greater the pedal
steer... Just keep your speed down and you will be fine. Anyone
who wants to be fast should be on a two-wheeler anyway.

Which dauntless DD from down under dutifully dared to debate:

Quoted message said:

I would tend to disagree... that speed is the main factor in
pedal steer.

Before someone starts yet another urban myth that pedal steer
is different depending on which side of the equator you ride,
I'd like to chime in from California to reinforce Dave's
rebuttal. In my humble experience, on most trikes the most
significant factors in the amount of pedal steer may very well
be a rider's jerky push-push motion, especially at high cadence.

Since most small wheeled tadpoles with derailleur-only gearing
tend to be a tad undergeared for high speeds, some folks may
feel the pedal steer effect more when they're pushing hardest
at high cadence.

Directly addressing Jerry's original questions:

Quoted message said:

... what causes pedal steer?

As Mr. D obsequiously (if somewhat obviously) observed:

Quoted message said:

Pedal steer is caused by pedaling hard.

Just as Dave pointed out, when you move around on any wheeled
vehicle that you outweigh by a factor of five to ten - trike,
bike, skateboard, or two teenagers in a shopping cart rolling
down a steep hill - your movements and stresses absolutely
will affect its directional stability. For a good illustration
of the effect on an upright bike, take another look at a head-on
shot of a sprint finish during the Tour de France.

But... everyone observes pedal steer as a very subjective
phenomenon. The rider causes it, and in many cases he also
adapts relatively unconsciously to compensate for it. If he
didn't, it would be impossible to ride most modern high-end
road bikes. When a tadpole rider pushes (mostly) forward on
his left pedal, if he tries to 'put his whole body into it'
by using his right shoulder as his primary reaction point, he's
essentially trying to swing the tadpole to the right with his
full body height as the length of the lever. As his cadence
increases the cycles of back and forth acceleration get higher
in intensity and it tends to be harder for most folks to adjust
their (probably unconscious) corrections. Pedal steer is hardly
a factor for cyclists who have a natural instinct to 'pedal in
circles' applying balanced forces in all directions as the crank
spins around.

Quoted message said:

Does the frame flex?

Yes, but depending on exactly which way and how each rider
uses the flex as part of his 'feel' for spinning or 'mashing'
the pedals, it may be either a good or a bad thing, purely
from the aspect of pedal steer.

Quoted message said:

Is it caused by inadvertent handlebar movement caused by
pushing hard on the pedals?

For some newbies on some tadpoles, yes, but I think that's
likely to be very easy, almost instinctive to detect and
correct.

What makes the pedal steering effect less noticeable on some
tadpoles than on others? Again, that tends to be more than a
little subjective, but two of the likely factors are: a long
wheelbase (i.e., the 45" Trice Leader vs the 10" or so shorter
Catrike Pocket); a more rearward weight bias with less overhang
for the rider's feet past the front crossbeam (i.e., a TT with
short boom and rear-set seat vs the same TT and rider with a
medium boom and moved up seat). Other factors may help mask
pedal steering, but with negative tradeoffs for other aspects
of trike performance; a few examples are: fat, soft front tires
vs narrow high pressure rubber; 'sticky' steering (more drag
when you try to make slight corrections with the bars; i.e.,
2004 vs. 2005 Catrike Speed); lack of a shoulder seat surface
to press against (i.e., Catrikes vs classic Greenspeeds); and
even seat 'give' (TerraTrike vs LoGo). Riding style makes a
difference in that riders who tend to rock as they pedal will
probably note less pedal steer on tadpoles with lower seats.

THE BOTTOM LINE: Pedal steering on tadpoles is - in most cases,
for most trikes with riders who've logged some seat time - not
even close to being to a major problem for stability or rider
satisfaction. Most serious trikeys learn to spin with a rotary
motion rather than alternately tromp on the pedals as a 'one
leg at a time' linear force. And although it is eminently
possible to ride a tadpole with very little concern for those
minor weight shifts and subtle tweaks of the handlebars that are
so absolutely essential when riding a bike that for most of us
they're instinctive and long forgotten, it does help to enhance
the tadpole experience as well.

Regards,
Wayne Leggett

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Just zis Guy said:

Quoted message said:

The fact remains that a tadpole trike is a very complicated design where
lots of factors have to be taken into consideration. Two-wheelers are far
simpler and easier to ride.

Two wheelers are often simpler for people used primarily to two wheelers
because they do most of the steering subconsciously by balance shifts,
where a trike requires you to actively move the bars. This applies to any
sort of trike, not just tadpole recumbents. Having veered around the
place on a Delta on my first trike trip for many years I got the hang of
it and was okay. Next trike try was on a tadpole and it wasn't any
trouble at all.

I suspect a SWB delta (very rare) would not be any better than a tadpole,
but surely you are not saying that a LWB delta is not infinitely superior to
a tadpole with respect to pedal steer.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tell that to my kids, they have never had any trouble. Michael raced
a tadpole once last year and found no issues with it.

It's a Known Fact (i.e., Ed said it) that no children are interested in
riding recumbents. Your son is clearly a figment of your imagination.
DKUATB.

I have never seen a kid on a recumbent in my life.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

>The fact remains that a tadpole trike is a very
>complicated design where lots of factors have to be taken into
>consideration. Two-wheelers are far simpler and easier to ride.

Quoted message said:

Two wheelers are often simpler for people used primarily to two wheelers
because they do most of the steering subconsciously by balance shifts,
where a trike requires you to actively move the bars.

Two-wheelers are simpler in design and easier to ride at speed compared to
three-wheelers.

Quoted message said:

FSVO people, I reckon. I know some folks who really don't get on with
two-wheel 'bents - the mechanism may be similar in terms of the
BRITONS' SCIENCE but with the axis of the body rotated so that front
more or less becomes back. Whereas I have never seen anyone have
trouble getting going on a trike.

We are only talking about the phenomenon of pedal steer. It does not come
into play at all on a two-wheeler whereas it does on a tadpole trike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tell that to my kids, they have never had any trouble. Michael raced
a tadpole once last year and found no issues with it.

Quoted message said:

It's a Known Fact (i.e., Ed said it) that no children are interested in
riding recumbents. Your son is clearly a figment of your imagination.
DKUATB.

Silly of me...

I have never seen a kid on a recumbent in my life. In fact, I do not even
see many middle age people on recumbents. It is mostly older people in their
40's and over.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

Edward Dolan said:

I used to laugh at cycling articles which advised that we pull on the
pedals on the upstroke as well as push on the downstroke. Good grief.
Does anyone do that?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I do. Pedalling up long hills on my SWB bike I get pronounced pedal
steer.

Point well taken. But that is due to the very slow speed and balance
problems. We are talking here about pedal steer at fast speed, not
slow speed.

Seems to me the "pedal steer" phenomenon depends on the relative positions
of the steered wheel(s) and pedals. Thus on a tadpole trike it manifests
itself as a yawing motion, but on an SWB bike it tends to be a rolling one.
Whether it's just my head moving or the bike moving under me I'm not sure,
and am disinclined to bolt my head rigidily to the tailbox in order to find
out, but it certainly appears as though the derailleur post on the
Speedmachine doesn't stay still while pedalling hard.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And
the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries
of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and
to them it is the holocaust."

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

I used to laugh at cycling articles which advised that we pull on the
pedals on the upstroke as well as push on the downstroke. Good grief.
Does anyone do that?

Yes.

Me thinks you are into racing. Most of the rest of us aren't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I do. Pedalling up long hills on my SWB bike I get pronounced pedal
steer.

Point well taken. But that is due to the very slow speed and balance
problems. We are talking here about pedal steer at fast speed, not
slow speed.

Seems to me the "pedal steer" phenomenon depends on the relative positions
of the steered wheel(s) and pedals. Thus on a tadpole trike it manifests
itself as a yawing motion, but on an SWB bike it tends to be a rolling
one.
Whether it's just my head moving or the bike moving under me I'm not sure,
and am disinclined to bolt my head rigidily to the tailbox in order to
find
out, but it certainly appears as though the derailleur post on the
Speedmachine doesn't stay still while pedalling hard.

There is no need to put pedal steer in quotation marks as though it did not
exist. It exists just as surely as there is a Santa Claus.

I am not sure about any of the above as I have never pedaled hard in my
life. Such an idea would never even occur to me. But mostly I am into
strictly long wheel base recumbents where the steered wheel is at the right
distance from the pedals and the right distance from the seat. All short
wheel base bikes and trikes are an abomination before the sight of God and
Man.

But even if there is some pedal steer on a SWB bike, it does not have the
same effect as the pedal steer of a tadpole. I hardly notice it on a SWB
bike, whereas I most certainly do notice it on a tadpole - and at much
slower speeds to boot. It seems like you are in perfect control of whatever
pedal steer is present on a two-wheeler whereas you feel that you are always
on the verge of losing control of the pedal steer on a tadpole (but only at
high speed). Thus spake Zarathustra.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

On Fri, 6 May 2005 04:46:37 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Two wheelers are often simpler for people used primarily to two wheelers
because they do most of the steering subconsciously by balance shifts,
where a trike requires you to actively move the bars.

Quoted message said:

Two-wheelers are simpler in design and easier to ride at speed compared to
three-wheelers.

You say. But without any actual evidence. The record speed from
Land's End to John O'Groats was set on a Windcheetah, and I doubt me
that Mr English would have crashed quite so spectacularly on two
wheels when his Mango succumbed to what looks suspiciously like pedal
steer.

Quoted message said:

We are only talking about the phenomenon of pedal steer. It does not come
into play at all on a two-wheeler whereas it does on a tadpole trike.

You say. But I ride a two-wheeler daily and can tell you emphatically
that it does.

Quoted message said:

I have never seen a kid on a recumbent in my life. In fact, I do not even
see many middle age people on recumbents. It is mostly older people in their
40's and over.

You need to get out more.

A sample of 100% of the children in my house have ridden 'bents. I've
seen kids riding 'bents in races at BHPC meets, and I've seen them
riding them at cycle festivals.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On Fri, 6 May 2005 04:23:56 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

Quoted message said:

And yet I found that by making a small conscious effort I increased my
cruising cadence to over 100rpm, with noticeable benefits in speed and
reduced fatigue. My wife and children all spin as well. So maybe
Ed's assertion based on a sample of one is just one man's opinion and
not any kind of rule.

Quoted message said:

Guy has just made my point for me better than I could have myself. No one,
but no one, pedals at 100 rpm (except racers).

No one except racers, me (a commuter and exactly three-time racer), my
wife (commuter & taking the kids to school) son Michael (11) and Peter
(8), half the guys in my local branch of the touring club, etc. etc.

So, no one except the ones who do.

Quoted message said:

Most pedal at 80 rpm or less.

Bollocks. Even the slow pedallers in the CTC routinely average 90.
You are confusing the specific case of what you imagine you woudl do
if you still rode, with the general case.

Quoted message said:

I find that I can't even keep it at 90 rpm for long unless I consciously
work at it. And anyone who works at cycling is a nut case.

Or faster and more comfortable. In my case faster and more
comfortable.

Quoted message said:

I used to laugh at cycling articles which advised that we pull on the pedals
on the upstroke as well as push on the downstroke. Good grief. Does anyone
do that?

Yes. But only with Look pedals.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I do. Pedalling up long hills on my SWB bike I get pronounced pedal
steer.

Quoted message said:

Point well taken. But that is due to the very slow speed and balance
problems. We are talking here about pedal steer at fast speed, not slow
speed.

You get pedal steer on a two-wheeler at high speed as well, if you
overcook it or if you are pedalling faster than you are used to. I
spin out at about 125rpm; above that I start to lose control.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What other high BB bikes have you tried?

Quoted message said:

I have the RANS V2, which is as high a BB as I care to attempt. Any higher
than that and I get numb feet.

It's LWB - a completely different dynamic. Tadpoles and SWB bikes
both have the BB well in front of the headset, hence the pedal steer.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The fact remains that a tadpole trike is a very
complicated design where lots of factors have to be taken into
consideration. Two-wheelers are far simpler and easier to ride.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Tell that to my kids, they have never had any trouble. Michael raced
a tadpole once last year and found no issues with it.

Quoted message said:

Kids can do things that us adults can't. Everyone knows that. Kids around
here perform on skateboards doing tricks that would kill me if I were
foolish enough to try.

Yada yada. You are comparing with your LWB bike - completely
different. I ride a SWB, I've tried some LWB, some lowracers, and
I've tried some trikes. No problem on any of them, ever. Still can't
ride that yike, though.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 6 May 2005 04:46:37 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

Quoted message said:

>Two wheelers are often simpler for people used primarily to two wheelers
>because they do most of the steering subconsciously by balance shifts,
>where a trike requires you to actively move the bars.

Quoted message said:

Two-wheelers are simpler in design and easier to ride at speed compared to
three-wheelers.

You say. But without any actual evidence. The record speed from
Land's End to John O'Groats was set on a Windcheetah, and I doubt me
that Mr English would have crashed quite so spectacularly on two
wheels when his Mango succumbed to what looks suspiciously like pedal
steer.

Guy does go on and on about racers and speed records, as if any of that
applied to anyone on this group.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We are only talking about the phenomenon of pedal steer. It does not come
into play at all on a two-wheeler whereas it does on a tadpole trike.

You say. But I ride a two-wheeler daily and can tell you emphatically
that it does.

The way I cycle there is never any pedal steer on a two-wheeler that is the
least bit noticeable. And that goes for SWB too. However, the way I cycle on
a tadpole I am always aware of pedal steer at speed. And I assure you, I am
a normal cycler (I think I just invented a new word).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have never seen a kid on a recumbent in my life. In fact, I do not even
see many middle age people on recumbents. It is mostly older people in
their
40's and over.

You need to get out more.

I have done more week long group bike tours than I care to mention and I
have NEVER seen a kid on a recumbent. Most are old like you and me, ready to
fall into the grave.

Quoted message said:

A sample of 100% of the children in my house have ridden 'bents. I've
seen kids riding 'bents in races at BHPC meets, and I've seen them
riding them at cycle festivals.

Why does this not surprise me. Statistics 101 anyone?

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 6 May 2005 04:23:56 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

Quoted message said:

And yet I found that by making a small conscious effort I increased my
cruising cadence to over 100rpm, with noticeable benefits in speed and
reduced fatigue. My wife and children all spin as well. So maybe
Ed's assertion based on a sample of one is just one man's opinion and
not any kind of rule.

Quoted message said:

Guy has just made my point for me better than I could have myself. No one,
but no one, pedals at 100 rpm (except racers).

No one except racers, me (a commuter and exactly three-time racer), my
wife (commuter & taking the kids to school) son Michael (11) and Peter
(8), half the guys in my local branch of the touring club, etc. etc.

So, no one except the ones who do.

Quoted message said:

Most pedal at 80 rpm or less.

Bollocks. Even the slow pedallers in the CTC routinely average 90.
You are confusing the specific case of what you imagine you woudl do
if you still rode, with the general case.

Quoted message said:

I find that I can't even keep it at 90 rpm for long unless I consciously
work at it. And anyone who works at cycling is a nut case.

Or faster and more comfortable. In my case faster and more
comfortable.

Quoted message said:

I used to laugh at cycling articles which advised that we pull on the
pedals
on the upstroke as well as push on the downstroke. Good grief. Does anyone
do that?

Yes. But only with Look pedals.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I do. Pedalling up long hills on my SWB bike I get pronounced pedal
steer.

Quoted message said:

Point well taken. But that is due to the very slow speed and balance
problems. We are talking here about pedal steer at fast speed, not slow
speed.

You get pedal steer on a two-wheeler at high speed as well, if you
overcook it or if you are pedalling faster than you are used to. I
spin out at about 125rpm; above that I start to lose control.

I have read that 90 rpm is about right for most serious cyclists, but casual
cyclists do not spin anywhere near that. I try to keep it at 90 rpm myself
as I would rather spin than push.

I once saw a gal spin at least 125 rpm on a group ride in North Dakota. It
just looked crazy to me and I wondered how efficient it was to spin that
fast. It seemed like she was wasting a lot of effort for not much forward
motion.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What other high BB bikes have you tried?

Quoted message said:

I have the RANS V2, which is as high a BB as I care to attempt. Any higher
than that and I get numb feet.

It's LWB - a completely different dynamic. Tadpoles and SWB bikes
both have the BB well in front of the headset, hence the pedal steer.

Yes, I do agree that LWB, whether a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler (delta)
is a completely different dynamic and that is why I prefer LWB over SWB. But
it would appear that you are agreeing with me that there is pedal steer
connected with SWB. Tadpole trikes are the worse in this respect. It is
better to be honest about this aspect than to try to cover it up or to
minimize it.

[...]

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

On Fri, 6 May 2005 17:23:20 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Two-wheelers are simpler in design and easier to ride at speed compared to
three-wheelers.

[snip speedy]

Quoted message said:

Guy does go on and on about racers and speed records, as if any of that
applied to anyone on this group.

You said two-wheelers are easier to ride at speed. Racers and people
setting speed records tend to ride at speed, often for quite long
periods. Perhaps you men "at speed" in the sense of "above walking
pace" - as far as I'm concerned "at speed" implies not less than
20mph, and I have found that both bikes and trikes are equally easy at
speeds up to 40mph. Since I don't own a trike I've not had the
opportunity to try one at speeds above that, but my SWB low bike is
fine at 50 and I have no reason to believe a trike would be different
as I have several trike-owning friends who tell me that their
machines, too, feel good at 50mph and above.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We are only talking about the phenomenon of pedal steer. It does not come
into play at all on a two-wheeler whereas it does on a tadpole trike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You say. But I ride a two-wheeler daily and can tell you emphatically
that it does.

Quoted message said:

The way I cycle there is never any pedal steer on a two-wheeler that is the
least bit noticeable.

You are riding a LWB, slowly. I am riding a SWB and riding hard. I
have powerful legs. The one time I raced the 'bent I was the fastest
rider without a tailbox.

Quoted message said:

And that goes for SWB too. However, the way I cycle on
a tadpole I am always aware of pedal steer at speed. And I assure you, I am
a normal cycler (I think I just invented a new word).

Ed, I don't think anyone here is under any illusion that you are a
normal anything. I offer for your consideration the old-established
word "cyclist".

Quoted message said:

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Quoted message said:

I have never seen a kid on a recumbent in my life. In fact, I do not even
see many middle age people on recumbents. It is mostly older people in
their 40's and over.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You need to get out more.

Quoted message said:

I have done more week long group bike tours than I care to mention and I
have NEVER seen a kid on a recumbent. Most are old like you and me, ready to
fall into the grave.

So you ride a lot with old people and see mainly old people riding
'bents. Whereas I ride with young people and see young people riding
them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A sample of 100% of the children in my house have ridden 'bents. I've
seen kids riding 'bents in races at BHPC meets, and I've seen them
riding them at cycle festivals.

Quoted message said:

Why does this not surprise me. Statistics 101 anyone?

Precisely. You are treating the contents of EdWorld as being
universal. You "never" see kids on 'bents? You're just looking in
the wrong places. They love 'em just as much as adults do.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On Fri, 6 May 2005 17:37:33 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

I have read that 90 rpm is about right for most serious cyclists, but casual
cyclists do not spin anywhere near that. I try to keep it at 90 rpm myself
as I would rather spin than push.

But my wife spins faster than I do and she is not a serious cyclist.
So does my MiL for that matter.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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I have the RANS V2, which is as high a BB as I care to attempt. Any higher
than that and I get numb feet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's LWB - a completely different dynamic. Tadpoles and SWB bikes
both have the BB well in front of the headset, hence the pedal steer.

Quoted message said:

Yes, I do agree that LWB, whether a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler (delta)
is a completely different dynamic and that is why I prefer LWB over SWB. But
it would appear that you are agreeing with me that there is pedal steer
connected with SWB. Tadpole trikes are the worse in this respect. It is
better to be honest about this aspect than to try to cover it up or to
minimize it.

The thing is, Ed, I don't know that tadpole trikes /are/ worse than
SWB bikes in that respect. I ride a SWB bike every day, and I know
that pedal steer is an issue, often a serious one. Early in my
recumbent career it took me off once, I've learned to be wary of it.
Nobody has produced any evidence that it is worse on tadpole trikes;
for all you know it might be that USS and SWB together produce the
maximum effect, and that just happens to be the most common
configuration of tadpole.

I'd rather rely on the opinion of people who actually ride the bikes
under discussion, rather than one who rides a completely different
kind of bike mainly because he doesn't like the high BB configuration
which is almost universal on tadpoles.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
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85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

Edward Dolan said:

Guy has just made my point for me better than I could have myself. No

one,

Quoted message said:

but no one, pedals at 100 rpm (except racers). Most pedal at 80 rpm

or less.

While I'll agree with you that most pedal at 80 rpm or less, I have
ridden with may casual riders (NOT racers) who pedal at 100 rpm.
Faster cadences are just natural for some riders. I pedal at 90-110
rpm and I am certainly NO racer, and Terry pedals between 85-100 and
let me assure you that she is NO racer. We didn't work at it, the
faster cadence just came naturally over time. Of course, those who
have faster cadences also have different shift points and bike in hilly
country, something you are not used to.

Enjoy,

Perry B

quote=''Edward Dolan said:

Guy has just made my point for me better than I could have myself. No

one,

Quoted message said:

but no one, pedals at 100 rpm (except racers). Most pedal at 80 rpm

or less.

While I'll agree with you that most pedal at 80 rpm or less, I have
ridden with may casual riders (NOT racers) who pedal at 100 rpm.
Faster cadences are just natural for some riders. I pedal at 90-110
rpm and I am certainly NO racer, and Terry pedals between 85-100 and
let me assure you that she is NO racer. We didn't work at it, the
faster cadence just came naturally over time. Of course, those who
have faster cadences also have different shift points and bike in hilly
country, something you are not used to.

Enjoy,

Perry B[/QUOTE]
Those whose cranks are 155mm will naturally have higher cadance than the same person with 175mm.My cranks are the longer of the two and my cadance will vary from time to time depending on which muscle groups I am using.
The first time I really pushed hard on my Terra trike 3.4 I was alarmed at the amount of pedal steer.I only saw this as an opportunity to learn smoother spinning as it is not a show stopper.Each triker must know his or her own limits and ride at their own level of skill.

Enjoy it or not.

On Sat, 7 May 2005 11:37:38 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

By "at speed" I mean at or about 15 to 20 mph. Believe it or not, most folks
ride their bikes at about 10 mph.

Even my eight-year-old rides at 12mph.

At speed means 20mph or more. You can't call it "at speed" if it's
average trundling pace or not much more, that's just silly.

Quoted message said:

I cannot ride a
SWB recumbent at more than 30 mph maximum. 25 mph is better. Even at 30 mph
I feel like the wobble is going to cause me to crash. Anyone going 50 mph on
a bicycle should have their head examined.

So you have no real experience of riding SWB at speed. I suggest,
then, that you leave judgments of performance of bikes at speed to
those who have actually tried it.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On Sat, 7 May 2005 11:58:32 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email hidden]>

wrote in message : said:

My TerraTrike has above seat steering and the other tadpole trikes that I
have ridden had under seat steering. No difference.

Ah, so you are basing your thesis on comparing an atypical trike with
a LWB bike. That would explain it: they are very different. When you
compare like more or less with like - SWB bikes with tadpoles, for
example, the difference seems to be much less evident.

Quoted message said:

Actually, my TerraTrike has one of the lowest BBs for a tadpole trike. It is
an early version and I do note that more recent versions have raised the BB
considerably. In fact, almost all tadpole trikes now have too high a BB in
my humble opinion.

So you say. I have no problem with a high BB, it gives ground
clearance for the pedals without the instability of a high CoG. The
Pashley PDQ3 amply demonstrates how undesirable a high CoG is on a
recumbent trike.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound