Which step-up racing wheels?

bebopdeluxe said:

upgrade my Mavic Cosmos wheels....

Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks!

Yah, Cosmos are somewhat heavy. I would suggest for you Dura Ace hubs
(but only because your drivetrain is Shimano) laced to Velocity
Aeroheads. If you're under 160 lbs, 28 hole front and rear, front 2x
14/17 ga db spokes, rear 3x 14/15 ga db spokes. Over 160, I would go
with a 32 hole rear, 14/15 spokes again. Aluminum nipples with the
caveat that brass are more durable (brass weigh about a gram per, alloy
1/3 gm per). The DT Swiss rim RR1.1 (IIRC) is also an option.

Spokes are also an area you could look at - ovalized spokes (some)
still fit through the holes in the Shimano hubs. These will provide an
aero advantage. How much I cannot say.

The 28 f/r pair will weigh about 1600 gms (more or less). This is
about 400 gms less than the Cosmos, or a little bit less than a pound.
Course, a lotta the weight in the cosmos is in the heavy hubs. Rims
are essentially Open Pros.

Think a good wheel builder would charge about $400 to $500 or so for
these. Many (including myself) will try to dissuade you from further
"boutique" wheel purchases (Ksyrium, etc....) due to their very
expensive repair costs and lack of real advantage over what I and
others have already suggested.

You could save 60 or so more grams by going with a set of King or other
lightweight hubs but then the hubs alone will be around $400.

Good luck!

D'ohBoy

bebopdeluxe said:

Hi there...new to the forum...I did my first Olympic Triathlon today
(which actually turned out to be a duathlon due to the condition of the
Schuykill River...). GREAT fun...and as someone who had done 25-mile
rides home from work in the past, being involved in race-type
conditions was an eye-opener, to say the least. I ride a Jamis Quest -
a nice road bike that is a pretty solid price-for performance rig...but
after the race, I couldn't help but feel like my bike left me at a bit
of a disadvantage. I think that the basics of the bike are fine - it
has an all-Ultegra set-up, which should be good enough, and I do like
the steel frame for the road riding that I do, but I think that I could
probably upgrade my Mavic Cosmos wheels and pick something up there.
Understanding that this was a $1000 bike, I don't want to spend
$1200-1500 for wheels, but I'm sure that there are some similar
price-for-perfromance options out there for racing wheels...

Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks!

Sorry, but it's mainly the motor. Wish it wasn't (then I could build
myself some real speed). ;-)

Yes, some seriously aero wheels can shave a little time off, but you
have to look at your place in the overall scheme of things. Is it
worth spending another $1000 on wheels and risking truly awful
handling if there's any wind - just to move from 125th to 122nd?

Spend some time doing some racing - enjoy the event and don't worry so
much about the equipment. If you find yourself at a point where
shaving a minute off a 40km TT will make a difference, then you'll be
in a better position to know where the money should be spent (lots of
people in r.b.t. are downright expert about spending other people's
money). ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame that you don't need yet

bebopdeluxe said:

Hi there...new to the forum...I did my first Olympic Triathlon today
(which actually turned out to be a duathlon due to the condition of the
Schuykill River...). GREAT fun...and as someone who had done 25-mile
rides home from work in the past, being involved in race-type
conditions was an eye-opener, to say the least. I ride a Jamis Quest -
a nice road bike that is a pretty solid price-for performance rig...but
after the race, I couldn't help but feel like my bike left me at a bit
of a disadvantage. I think that the basics of the bike are fine - it
has an all-Ultegra set-up, which should be good enough, and I do like
the steel frame for the road riding that I do, but I think that I could
probably upgrade my Mavic Cosmos wheels and pick something up there.
Understanding that this was a $1000 bike, I don't want to spend
$1200-1500 for wheels, but I'm sure that there are some similar
price-for-perfromance options out there for racing wheels...

Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks!

You don't mention anything else about your bicycle,
your position on it, anything like that. I assume this is
an olympic-distance triathlon but without actual drafting,
so aero equipment is legal. Do you have aero bar
extensions, and a decent aerodynamic position?
If not, a pair of clip-on aero bars and some practice
will make a much bigger difference than any set of
wheels.

Mark:

I appreciate your to-the-point assessment of what the issue is...

:-)

Yesterday was my first road race, and I learned a LOT...obviously, when
you see some of the bikes being ridden out there, it was hard for me to
not have some gear envy. I also understand that there is NO substitute
for training. My question - basically - is one of what I should focus
on to improve the bike's ability to maximize what I am putting
out...I'm not looking for miracles.

An aerobar sounds like a GREAT suggestion. Done. I know that the
triple-crank that came with the '04 Quest is probably not the most
race-optimal piece of equipment - I have a very good LBS nearby that
can probably make some suggestions there. And as far as the wheels, a
friend of mine (who is a world-class duathlete) said that the Cosmos
are a totally fine, workman-like wheel that is VERY sturdy (he knows
people who use them for training purposes because of their durability).
And if I am only going to pick up, say, 400-500 grams by changing out
the wheels, am I going to start changing the stem, bars, etc...as well?
And is it worth it to put on wheels that may be less forgiving for the
rides that I take on city streets?

Not looking for the "magical" answer here...just trying to ascertain
whether there is a wheel out there that would provide some step-up in
perfromance over the Cosmos without breaking the bank. And if I AM
onto something with replacing the crank, confirmation of that would
also be appreciated...

Thanks for the feedback, everybody!

Mark Hickey said:

bebopdeluxe said:

Hi there...new to the forum...I did my first Olympic Triathlon today
(which actually turned out to be a duathlon due to the condition of the
Schuykill River...). GREAT fun...and as someone who had done 25-mile
rides home from work in the past, being involved in race-type
conditions was an eye-opener, to say the least. I ride a Jamis Quest -
a nice road bike that is a pretty solid price-for performance rig...but
after the race, I couldn't help but feel like my bike left me at a bit
of a disadvantage. I think that the basics of the bike are fine - it
has an all-Ultegra set-up, which should be good enough, and I do like
the steel frame for the road riding that I do, but I think that I could
probably upgrade my Mavic Cosmos wheels and pick something up there.
Understanding that this was a $1000 bike, I don't want to spend
$1200-1500 for wheels, but I'm sure that there are some similar
price-for-perfromance options out there for racing wheels...

Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks!

Sorry, but it's mainly the motor. Wish it wasn't (then I could build
myself some real speed). ;-)

Yes, some seriously aero wheels can shave a little time off, but you
have to look at your place in the overall scheme of things. Is it
worth spending another $1000 on wheels and risking truly awful
handling if there's any wind - just to move from 125th to 122nd?

Spend some time doing some racing - enjoy the event and don't worry so
much about the equipment. If you find yourself at a point where
shaving a minute off a 40km TT will make a difference, then you'll be
in a better position to know where the money should be spent (lots of
people in r.b.t. are downright expert about spending other people's
money). ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame that you don't need yet

bebopdeluxe said:

Hi there...new to the forum...I did my first Olympic Triathlon today
(which actually turned out to be a duathlon due to the condition of the
Schuykill River...). GREAT fun...and as someone who had done 25-mile
rides home from work in the past, being involved in race-type
conditions was an eye-opener, to say the least. I ride a Jamis Quest -
a nice road bike that is a pretty solid price-for performance rig...but
after the race, I couldn't help but feel like my bike left me at a bit
of a disadvantage. I think that the basics of the bike are fine - it
has an all-Ultegra set-up, which should be good enough, and I do like
the steel frame for the road riding that I do, but I think that I could
probably upgrade my Mavic Cosmos wheels and pick something up there.
Understanding that this was a $1000 bike, I don't want to spend
$1200-1500 for wheels, but I'm sure that there are some similar
price-for-perfromance options out there for racing wheels...

Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks!

A 105, 36h front hub, 28h rear 105 hub, laced to Velocity Deep V, DT
oval spokes, 18 radial in the front, 28 2 cross in the rear..about
$400..

bebopdeluxe said:

Hi there...new to the forum...I did my first Olympic Triathlon today

Quoted message said:

I don't want to spend
$1200-1500 for wheels, but I'm sure that there are some similar
price-for-perfromance options out there for racing wheels...

Save your money, it won't make a bit of difference.

bebopdeluxe said:

And if I am only going to pick up, say, 400-500 grams by changing out
the wheels, am I going to start changing the stem, bars, etc...as well?
And is it worth it to put on wheels that may be less forgiving for the
rides that I take on city streets?

Forget weight. Really. In a triathlon or duathlon, it simply doesn't
matter unless it's a VERY hilly event. In a flat Olympic length TT
without turns (yeah, I know that would be unusual) a pound (454 grams)
will cost you only about one second. If you find yourself wanting to
buy some speed, concentrate on getting your body in the right position
(since it's responsible for the lion's share of wind drag), and then
on wheels (with 95% emphasis on aerodynamics, 5% on weight).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Mark:

Getting back to a question I posed earlier...and I apologize in advance
if my question has "newbie" slathered all over it...

Is there something that I can do with the front crank ( i.e. what the
pedals attach to) to give myself a bit more "oomph"? I think that I
have a Truvativ triple crankset, and I wonder if getting a double
crankset with better gear spacing might give me the ability to get a
little more power in the flats (it might kill me in the hills, but it's
not like I am using the easiest setting on the triple crank anyway...)

Bill

Mark Hickey said:

bebopdeluxe said:

And if I am only going to pick up, say, 400-500 grams by changing out
the wheels, am I going to start changing the stem, bars, etc...as well?
And is it worth it to put on wheels that may be less forgiving for the
rides that I take on city streets?

Forget weight. Really. In a triathlon or duathlon, it simply doesn't
matter unless it's a VERY hilly event. In a flat Olympic length TT
without turns (yeah, I know that would be unusual) a pound (454 grams)
will cost you only about one second. If you find yourself wanting to
buy some speed, concentrate on getting your body in the right position
(since it's responsible for the lion's share of wind drag), and then
on wheels (with 95% emphasis on aerodynamics, 5% on weight).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Yesterday was my first road race, and I learned a LOT...obviously, when
you see some of the bikes being ridden out there, it was hard for me to
not have some gear envy. I also understand that there is NO substitute
for training. My question - basically - is one of what I should focus
on to improve the bike's ability to maximize what I am putting
out...I'm not looking for miracles.
An aerobar sounds like a GREAT suggestion. Done.

Your position on the bike is the most important part. The rider provides
the most aero drag on a bike. So getting your position so that you minimize
frontal area while staying comfortable is the most important part. Getting
the optimal position may take some time because you may not feel comfortable
in a position that is radically different than your current position. So
you should make small steps towards the optimal set up.

Quoted message said:

I know that the
triple-crank that came with the '04 Quest is probably not the most
race-optimal piece of equipment - I have a very good LBS nearby that
can probably make some suggestions there.

Unless you are going so fast that you are spinning out your gears, I would
not bother messing with the cranks. They are expensive and really don't
have any affect on performance.

Quoted message said:

And as far as the wheels, a
friend of mine (who is a world-class duathlete) said that the Cosmos
are a totally fine, workman-like wheel that is VERY sturdy (he knows
people who use them for training purposes because of their durability).
And if I am only going to pick up, say, 400-500 grams by changing out
the wheels, am I going to start changing the stem, bars, etc...as well?
And is it worth it to put on wheels that may be less forgiving for the
rides that I take on city streets?

If this was me, I would sell the Cosmos and get some decent standard wheels.
You will save weight and get easily repaired wheels. If there is any climbing
involved during the race, 500 grams is noticeable.

Quoted message said:

Not looking for the "magical" answer here...just trying to ascertain
whether there is a wheel out there that would provide some step-up in
perfromance over the Cosmos without breaking the bank. And if I AM
onto something with replacing the crank, confirmation of that would
also be appreciated...

How big is your bank? Hard to make a recommendation without knowing what
your budget is.
------------
Alex

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

A 105, 36h front hub, 28h rear 105 hub, laced to Velocity Deep V, DT
oval spokes, 18 radial in the front, 28 2 cross in the rear..about
$400..

I'm impressed. I have read your frequently stated aversion to radial
lacing. And here you are, advocating radial spoking. On a hub not
warranteed for radial lacing no less!

I noticed you making positive comments about the new campy chains as
well - another thing you have expressed negative opinions on in the
past as well.

Is it Peter or a Pod Person?!

;-)

D'ohBoy

bebopdeluxe said:

Mark:

Getting back to a question I posed earlier...and I apologize in advance
if my question has "newbie" slathered all over it...

Is there something that I can do with the front crank ( i.e. what the
pedals attach to) to give myself a bit more "oomph"? I think that I
have a Truvativ triple crankset, and I wonder if getting a double
crankset with better gear spacing might give me the ability to get a
little more power in the flats (it might kill me in the hills, but it's
not like I am using the easiest setting on the triple crank anyway...)

The crankset makes no difference. I doubt you are miss shifting during
the race and ending up on the inner ring by accident. Your crank will
most likely have 52-42-30 or 53-39-30 chainrings. The outer and middle
rings are the standard for road bikes. They work fine with available
cassettes. One place you might, might, might be able to help your
gearing is to have a tighter rear cassette. If the course is
reasonably flat, then a cassette with almost a straight block would
help with gear selection. A 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21 or
13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23 for instance. With any change in gradient
or wind direction, you will be able to pick the next easiest or harder
gear to keep riding at the same rpm and power output.

Of course your current cassette will work just fine too. Going fast is
about 110% dependent on the rider.

Everyone:

This has all been very helpful...the more that I dig into this, the
more that I understand that 1) the improvements that I will get from
some high-end wheels will probably not be great enough to justify the
cost (I am a 46-y.o. guy who did yesterday's 40K ride in 1:20...I'm not
getting near a podium any time soon) and 2) the Mavic Cosmos is a
solid, workman-like wheel that is PERFECT for my mostly road-riding
usage.

As far as the derailleurs (Ultegra) and crankset (TruVativ 52/40/30),
they are just fine as well. I think that this was just a post-race
feeling of gear envy that was, in retrospect, not really the point
(it's all about the engine...yes?). The one thing that I WILL look
into is doing something about my handlebar setup...get some aerobars
(either clip-on or as part of an integrated replacement)...but I have
to figure out what to do with my Ultegra STI's...do I leave them where
they are...move them to the aerobars...get dual controls?

My puzzler's getting sore again...

Peter Cole said:

bebopdeluxe said:

Hi there...new to the forum...I did my first Olympic Triathlon today

Quoted message said:

I don't want to spend
$1200-1500 for wheels, but I'm sure that there are some similar
price-for-perfromance options out there for racing wheels...

Save your money, it won't make a bit of difference.

bebopdeluxe said:

Everyone:

This has all been very helpful...the more that I dig into this, the
more that I understand that 1) the improvements that I will get from
some high-end wheels will probably not be great enough to justify the
cost (I am a 46-y.o. guy who did yesterday's 40K ride in 1:20...I'm
not getting near a podium any time soon) and 2) the Mavic Cosmos is a
solid, workman-like wheel that is PERFECT for my mostly road-riding
usage.

As far as the derailleurs (Ultegra) and crankset (TruVativ 52/40/30),
they are just fine as well. I think that this was just a post-race
feeling of gear envy that was, in retrospect, not really the point
(it's all about the engine...yes?)

No, no, no! You've got it all backwards!

You're supposed to go out and spend vast quantities of money and THEN arrive
at the realizations you express above.

C'mon, man, get with the program.

<eg>

Bill "bought so much light stuff for my Ultegra-level bike that I had to buy
a carbon frame to put it all on (and I'm /still/ a slug)" S.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

bebopdeluxe said:

Mark:

Getting back to a question I posed earlier...and I apologize in advance
if my question has "newbie" slathered all over it...

Is there something that I can do with the front crank ( i.e. what the
pedals attach to) to give myself a bit more "oomph"? I think that I
have a Truvativ triple crankset, and I wonder if getting a double
crankset with better gear spacing might give me the ability to get a
little more power in the flats (it might kill me in the hills, but it's
not like I am using the easiest setting on the triple crank anyway...)

The crankset makes no difference. I doubt you are miss shifting during
the race and ending up on the inner ring by accident. Your crank will
most likely have 52-42-30 or 53-39-30 chainrings. The outer and middle
rings are the standard for road bikes. They work fine with available
cassettes. One place you might, might, might be able to help your
gearing is to have a tighter rear cassette. If the course is
reasonably flat, then a cassette with almost a straight block would
help with gear selection. A 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21 or
13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23 for instance. With any change in gradient
or wind direction, you will be able to pick the next easiest or harder
gear to keep riding at the same rpm and power output.

I was writing pretty much the same thing, so you saved me some bother.
Thanks. I'd add that 'learning' to pedal nice and smoothly (90RPM+) will
make the bike phase more tolerable, and keep legs fresh for the run.

Quoted message said:

Of course your current cassette will work just fine too. Going fast is
about 110% dependent on the rider.

Oh yes. Train lots and good luck for the next event.

Skippy
E&OE

bebopdeluxe said:

The one thing that I WILL look
into is doing something about my handlebar setup...get some aerobars
(either clip-on or as part of an integrated replacement)...but I have
to figure out what to do with my Ultegra STI's...do I leave them where
they are...move them to the aerobars...get dual controls?

Try clip-ons before you make any major investment. You don't need to do
any other modifications except perhaps moving your saddle forward. It's
not necessary to have shifters or brakes on the aerobars -- you
shouldn't use them where you might need to brake in a hurry. My rule of
thumb is to only use them where I would feel comfortable riding
no-hands. If you're not confident riding no-hands or with your forearms
on the handlebars then perhaps you're not a good candidate for aerobars.

An obvious thing that many people who want to get faster don't do is to
get rid of any flappy jackets. The easiest gains in TT racing come from
getting your aero drag as low as possible. Position on the bike and
clothing are the first things to tweak

Peter Cole said:

bebopdeluxe said:

The one thing that I WILL look
into is doing something about my handlebar setup...get some aerobars
(either clip-on or as part of an integrated replacement)...but I have
to figure out what to do with my Ultegra STI's...do I leave them
where they are...move them to the aerobars...get dual controls?

Try clip-ons before you make any major investment. You don't need to
do any other modifications except perhaps moving your saddle forward.
It's not necessary to have shifters or brakes on the aerobars -- you
shouldn't use them where you might need to brake in a hurry. My rule
of thumb is to only use them where I would feel comfortable riding
no-hands. If you're not confident riding no-hands or with your
forearms on the handlebars then perhaps you're not a good candidate
for aerobars.
An obvious thing that many people who want to get faster don't do is
to get rid of any flappy jackets. The easiest gains in TT racing come
from getting your aero drag as low as possible. Position on the bike
and clothing are the first things to tweak

Oh-oh. I see duct-taping of helmet vents in his future! <eg>

"D'ohBoy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

A 105, 36h front hub, 28h rear 105 hub, laced to Velocity Deep V, DT
oval spokes, 18 radial in the front, 28 2 cross in the rear..about
$400..

I'm impressed. I have read your frequently stated aversion to radial
lacing. And here you are, advocating radial spoking. On a hub not
warranteed for radial lacing no less!

The '10 speed' 105s are. I'm still surprised though.

Quoted message said:

I noticed you making positive comments about the new campy chains as
well - another thing you have expressed negative opinions on in the
past as well.

Is it Peter or a Pod Person?!

;-)

D'ohBoy

Skippy
E&OE

Sorni:

Thanks for the laugh!

Actually, it's all about keeping it simple...there are so many aspects
to this - equipment versus training...bike/run versus swim (as has been
voiced before, the BEST investment that I can make is some swim lessons
or time with a master's swim group)...but we live in a society where we
ALL want the lightest/fastest/tech-iest piece of equpiment - as a
theoretical shortcut for doing the WORK.

Don't get me wrong - solid, practical suggestions like getting aerobars
to improve my aerodynamic positioning make BIG sense...and I will get
right on that...but I do want to be a bit thoughtful abut it - don't
want to go out and buy simple clip-ons if, a few months from now, a
more integrated solution makes sense (it's not like the Easton EA50
aluminum road bar is a cutting edge piece of technology...but, again, I
don't want to throw good money out the window if I don't have to...)

Bill

Sorni said:

bebopdeluxe said:

Everyone:

This has all been very helpful...the more that I dig into this, the
more that I understand that 1) the improvements that I will get from
some high-end wheels will probably not be great enough to justify the
cost (I am a 46-y.o. guy who did yesterday's 40K ride in 1:20...I'm
not getting near a podium any time soon) and 2) the Mavic Cosmos is a
solid, workman-like wheel that is PERFECT for my mostly road-riding
usage.

As far as the derailleurs (Ultegra) and crankset (TruVativ 52/40/30),
they are just fine as well. I think that this was just a post-race
feeling of gear envy that was, in retrospect, not really the point
(it's all about the engine...yes?)

No, no, no! You've got it all backwards!

You're supposed to go out and spend vast quantities of money and THEN arrive
at the realizations you express above.

C'mon, man, get with the program.

<eg>

Bill "bought so much light stuff for my Ultegra-level bike that I had to buy
a carbon frame to put it all on (and I'm /still/ a slug)" S.

bebopdeluxe said:

Everyone:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

As far as the derailleurs (Ultegra) and crankset (TruVativ 52/40/30),
they are just fine as well. I think that this was just a post-race
feeling of gear envy that was, in retrospect, not really the point
(it's all about the engine...yes?). The one thing that I WILL look
into is doing something about my handlebar setup...get some aerobars
(either clip-on or as part of an integrated replacement)...but I have
to figure out what to do with my Ultegra STI's...do I leave them where
they are...move them to the aerobars...get dual controls?

<snip>

Get some clip on aerobars and get used to them first. Leave the levers
where they are. The extra effort to reach out & change gear is
negligible. Work on keeping the pedaling cadence good & steady and the
times will come to you. Also with clip on aero bars you can easily take
them off if you just want to go for a gentle ride with friends.

Stan Cox