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Which spokes lose tension?

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3 October 2007
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  1. What determines the range of spokes that lose tension under the axle
    when the wheel is loaded?

    I know of only two FEA models, Jobst's and Ian's.

    Here's Ian's:

    http://www.astounding.org.uk/ian/wheel/index.html

    Jobst uses a 50 kg load and a simplified radial wheel, while Ian uses
    102 kg (1,000 Newtons) and a cross-3 lacing.

    But both models show the same 40-degree arc of 5 of 35 spokes losing
    tension, with the middle spoke centered on the contact patch:

    //|\\

    What happens when the spokes shift so that there's no middle spoke,
    meaning that two spokes straddle the center of the contact patch?

    Do six spokes lose tension over a 50-degree arc?

    ///\\\

    Or only four spokes over only 40 degrees?

    //\\

    My guess is six spokes, but it's just a guess.

    ***

    What happens as the load increases on a real wheel where spokes can go
    slack and the radial stiffness of the wheel varies, with modern deep
    low-spoke-count rims being stiffer than their ancestors?

    That is, what happens if the load and spoke tension combine so that
    all 5 spokes under the axle of a 36-spoke wheel go slack?

    Do the spokes next to them change behavior and start losing tension?

    Or do the other 31 spokes all continue to gain tension?

    Does the wheel deform so that only the bottom 5 can lose tension?

    My guess is that the other 31 spokes continue to gain tension, instead
    of the tension-loss range expanding from 5 to 7 spokes.

    ***

    What happens with lighter loads?

    Do the same 5 spokes immediately lose tension on a 36-spoke wheel, no
    matter how small the load is?

    Or does the wheel deform so that first just the central spoke loses
    tension, then the two on either side of it as the load increases, and
    then the next two?

    I haven't even got a guess about this.

    ***

    What is the range of spokes that lose tension on an 18 spoke wheel,
    with half as many spokes as the 36-spoke models?

    Do only 3 of the 18 spokes lose tension like this over a smaller arc?

    / | \ possible 18-spoke 40-degree arc for tension loss

    versus

    //|\\ FEA 36-spoke 40-degree arc for 50 and 102 kg

    Or does the range broaden so that 5 of 18 spokes still lose tension?

    / / | \ \ possible 18-spoke 80-degree arc for tension loss

    versus

    //|\\ FEA 36-spoke 40-degree arc for 50 and 102 kg

    With only 16 spokes, spokes are spaced 22.5 degrees apart. If three
    spokes lose tension on a 16-spoke wheel, then the arc of tension loss
    _must_ increase to at least 45 degrees versus the 40 degrees of the
    36-spoke model. (Maybe only the single central spoke loses tension?)

    To turn things around, what happens with a 72-spoke wheel? Do only 5
    spokes lose tension in a 20-degree arc, with 67 other spokes gaining
    tension? Or do 10 spokes lose tension?

    (Substitute 40 or 48 spokes, if you want to do trickier arithmetic.)

    Again, I don't even have a guess. We have only two FEA models for 36
    spokes. We don't have one for 32 spokes, much less 18 spokes.

    ***

    In a 3-spoke model, things may become very strange.

    If the single spoke is pointing down, it seems likely that the single
    lower spoke loses tension when the wheel is loaded, since it must be
    in the arc where the rim flattens and moves closer to the hub:

    \ /
    |
    lose

    But what happens when the single spoke points up? Do the two lower
    spokes lose or gain tension when the wheel is loaded?

    |
    / \
    ? ?

    If the two lower spokes are outside the rim section that flattens
    inward, then they should _gain_ tension, and we have a pre-tensioned
    wheel that in some positions doesn't lose tension (assuming that the
    _top_ of the wheel doesn't do something sneaky and flatten toward the
    hub).

    And what the hell happens when the 3-spoke wheel is loaded in these
    positions?

    _ / \ _
    \ or /

    The wheel would deform, but probably asymmetrically.

    ***

    A 6-spoke wheel may raise similar questions:

    A spoke pointing down at the center of the contact patch probably
    loses tension. But the spokes on either side may not lose tension,
    since they may lie outside the flattened rim section:

    \|/
    /|\

    In the position below, do the two spokes 60 degrees apart lose
    tension? Or are they so far apart that they just gain tension?

    _\/_
    /\

    ***

    You could ask the same questions about an even simpler 4-spoke model,
    where the arc between two bottom spokes increases to 90 degrees:

    _|_
    |
    lose

    versus

    \/
    /\
    ? ?

    Interestingly, if the lower spokes do indeed lose tension, then the
    upper spokes may gain impressive tension after the lower spokes have
    lost all tension.

    If so, then low spoke count rims would be more prone to cracking at
    the spoke holes because the spokes _gain_ so much tension when loaded.

    ***

    Again, I'm just guessing about most of this. It would be nice if there
    are much simpler answers.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  2. Quoted message said:

    What determines the range of spokes that lose tension under the axle
    when the wheel is loaded?

    I know of only two FEA models, Jobst's and Ian's.

    You need to get your own, obviously.

  3. Peter Cole said:

    You need to get your own, obviously.

    I second that.

    I built some models earlier this year but modeled deflections were
    lower than testing by ~30% and I couldn't figure out why... so I lost
    interest. It is possible that I needed to have separate nodes in the
    rim for where the spoke attaches and the CG (I was modeling a 30mm
    rim), instead of just having a single row of nodes around the rim...
    that was the next thing I wanted to try anyway. Building models is a
    very tedious job. I used the "Lisa" free program, which eventually
    seemed to work well enough. I figured out the input format, then used
    excel to build the input files.

  4. Quoted message said:

    What determines the range of spokes that lose tension under the axle
    when the wheel is loaded?

    I know of only two FEA models, Jobst's and Ian's.

    Here's Ian's:

    http://www.astounding.org.uk/ian/wheel/index.html

    Jobst uses a 50 kg load and a simplified radial wheel, while Ian uses
    102 kg (1,000 Newtons) and a cross-3 lacing.

    But both models show the same 40-degree arc of 5 of 35 spokes losing
    tension, with the middle spoke centered on the contact patch:

    //|\\

    What happens when the spokes shift so that there's no middle spoke,
    meaning that two spokes straddle the center of the contact patch?

    Do six spokes lose tension over a 50-degree arc?

    ///\\\

    Or only four spokes over only 40 degrees?

    //\\

    My guess is six spokes, but it's just a guess.

    ***

    What happens as the load increases on a real wheel where spokes can go
    slack and the radial stiffness of the wheel varies, with modern deep
    low-spoke-count rims being stiffer than their ancestors?

    That is, what happens if the load and spoke tension combine so that
    all 5 spokes under the axle of a 36-spoke wheel go slack?

    Do the spokes next to them change behavior and start losing tension?

    Or do the other 31 spokes all continue to gain tension?

    Does the wheel deform so that only the bottom 5 can lose tension?

    My guess is that the other 31 spokes continue to gain tension, instead
    of the tension-loss range expanding from 5 to 7 spokes.

    ***

    What happens with lighter loads?

    Do the same 5 spokes immediately lose tension on a 36-spoke wheel, no
    matter how small the load is?

    Or does the wheel deform so that first just the central spoke loses
    tension, then the two on either side of it as the load increases, and
    then the next two?

    I haven't even got a guess about this.

    ***

    What is the range of spokes that lose tension on an 18 spoke wheel,
    with half as many spokes as the 36-spoke models?

    Do only 3 of the 18 spokes lose tension like this over a smaller arc?

    / | \ possible 18-spoke 40-degree arc for tension loss

    versus

    //|\\ FEA 36-spoke 40-degree arc for 50 and 102 kg

    Or does the range broaden so that 5 of 18 spokes still lose tension?

    / / | \ \ possible 18-spoke 80-degree arc for tension loss

    versus

    //|\\ FEA 36-spoke 40-degree arc for 50 and 102 kg

    With only 16 spokes, spokes are spaced 22.5 degrees apart. If three
    spokes lose tension on a 16-spoke wheel, then the arc of tension loss
    _must_ increase to at least 45 degrees versus the 40 degrees of the
    36-spoke model. (Maybe only the single central spoke loses tension?)

    To turn things around, what happens with a 72-spoke wheel? Do only 5
    spokes lose tension in a 20-degree arc, with 67 other spokes gaining
    tension? Or do 10 spokes lose tension?

    (Substitute 40 or 48 spokes, if you want to do trickier arithmetic.)

    Again, I don't even have a guess. We have only two FEA models for 36
    spokes. We don't have one for 32 spokes, much less 18 spokes.

    ***

    In a 3-spoke model, things may become very strange.

    If the single spoke is pointing down, it seems likely that the single
    lower spoke loses tension when the wheel is loaded, since it must be
    in the arc where the rim flattens and moves closer to the hub:

    \ /
    |
    lose

    But what happens when the single spoke points up? Do the two lower
    spokes lose or gain tension when the wheel is loaded?

    |
    / \
    ? ?

    If the two lower spokes are outside the rim section that flattens
    inward, then they should _gain_ tension, and we have a pre-tensioned
    wheel that in some positions doesn't lose tension (assuming that the
    _top_ of the wheel doesn't do something sneaky and flatten toward the
    hub).

    And what the hell happens when the 3-spoke wheel is loaded in these
    positions?

    _ / \ _
    \ or /

    The wheel would deform, but probably asymmetrically.

    ***

    A 6-spoke wheel may raise similar questions:

    A spoke pointing down at the center of the contact patch probably
    loses tension. But the spokes on either side may not lose tension,
    since they may lie outside the flattened rim section:

    \|/
    /|\

    In the position below, do the two spokes 60 degrees apart lose
    tension? Or are they so far apart that they just gain tension?

    _\/_
    /\

    ***

    You could ask the same questions about an even simpler 4-spoke model,
    where the arc between two bottom spokes increases to 90 degrees:

    _|_
    |
    lose

    versus

    \/
    /\
    ? ?

    Interestingly, if the lower spokes do indeed lose tension, then the
    upper spokes may gain impressive tension after the lower spokes have
    lost all tension.

    If so, then low spoke count rims would be more prone to cracking at
    the spoke holes because the spokes _gain_ so much tension when loaded.

    ***

    Again, I'm just guessing about most of this. It would be nice if there
    are much simpler answers.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    I am hoping to be able to answer those questions soon. I am in the
    process of biulding a test rig with 6" square steel tubing that
    creates a 40"x12" box. I then have two 2"dia bolts that come through
    the sides of the tubing to clamp the axle of a wheel. Lock nuts keep
    the screws from backing out. At the bottom portion to the box I have a
    2 ton bottle jack and an "S" type load cell hooked up to be able to
    read the force being applied radially to the wheel. Dial indicators
    and tension meters will determine rim movement under various loads as
    well as tension
    variation.
    ____________
    l _______ l w= wheel
    l l w l l h= hub
    l l w l l s=load cell
    l l>> h <<l l <>= 2" bolts
    l l w l l
    l l w l l
    l l s l l
    l l___ l___l l
    l___________l

    Steve Sauter

  5. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Ron Ruff said:
    Peter Cole said:

    You need to get your own, obviously.

    I second that.

    I built some models earlier this year but modeled deflections were
    lower than testing by ~30% and I couldn't figure out why... so I lost
    interest. It is possible that I needed to have separate nodes in the
    rim for where the spoke attaches and the CG (I was modeling a 30mm
    rim), instead of just having a single row of nodes around the rim...
    that was the next thing I wanted to try anyway. Building models is a
    very tedious job. I used the "Lisa" free program, which eventually
    seemed to work well enough. I figured out the input format, then used
    excel to build the input files.

    In these kinds of tedious model building chores I always
    write a program that creates the model. Use any language
    that suits you: Perl, Python, shell script, C, awk, Fortran,
    .... (but not Excel) It is always worth the effort.

    --
    Michael Press

  6. Michael Press said:

    In these kinds of tedious model building chores I always
    write a program that creates the model. Use any language
    that suits you: Perl, Python, shell script, C, awk, Fortran,
    ... (but not Excel) It is always worth the effort.

    Great idea! If only I knew one of those "foreign" languages...
    learning them can be quite tedious as well...

  7. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Ron Ruff said:
    Michael Press said:

    In these kinds of tedious model building chores I always
    write a program that creates the model. Use any language
    that suits you: Perl, Python, shell script, C, awk, Fortran,
    ... (but not Excel) It is always worth the effort.

    Great idea! If only I knew one of those "foreign" languages...
    learning them can be quite tedious as well...

    Oh. I mistakenly assumed we were talking about
    programming. Nevermind.

    --
    Michael Press

  8. "Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    jim beam said:

    so shine your brilliant "engineering" light on us poor [censored] that are
    too dumb to do it for ourselves! give us the "for dummies" summary!

    Not "us", just "you", apparently.

    Not "apparently".

  9. "jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    avoidance from peter cole? shirley shome mishtake!

    Whatsa matter beamboy, got turned down by your favorite hooker this weekend?

    DLFF.

  10. Jambo said:

    "jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    avoidance from peter cole? shirley shome mishtake!

    Whatsa matter beamboy, got turned down by your favorite hooker this weekend?

    DLFF.


    how old are you? moron.

  11. "jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Jambo said:

    "jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    avoidance from peter cole? shirley shome mishtake!

    Whatsa matter beamboy, got turned down by your favorite hooker this
    weekend?

    DLFF.


    how old are you? moron.

    Did you get turned down by your favorite hooker?

    Idiot.

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