Which indoor power training option?

I have a Kurt Kinetic and a Computrainer, and I much prefer the Computrainer. I like the ability to create a workout with predefined wattage intervals so all I have to worry about is turning over the pedals. I like being able to zone out during the workout (obviously I don't use rollers for this reason). With the Kurt Kinetic you need to concentrate on keeping the power output the same which gets difficult especially during the hard intervals. Another thing I like about the computrainer is I can export the workout to a file and then upload it to WKO+ without needing an on-bike power meter. I keep a cheap mountain bike hooked up to the computrainer, which leaves my powertap equiped road bike free for outdoor rides. Last point in favor of the computrainer has been rear tire life. It has a smaller roller than the KK, so I expected it to produce more tire wear, but I have found the exact opposite. My computrainer has produced almost no tire wear on the michelin carbons and XCR road slicks I use. The KK seemed to shred tires in about 2 months.

Thanks for fast feedback.

strader said:

Another thing I like about the computrainer is I can export the workout to a file and then upload it to WKO+ without needing an on-bike power meter.

I just realised that the speed-to-power formula for the KK is available. So any bike-computer which records speed for subsequent download would be able to give WKO+ data.

strader said:

It has a smaller roller than the KK, so I expected it to produce more tire wear, but I have found the exact opposite. My computrainer has produced almost no tire wear on the michelin carbons and XCR road slicks I use. The KK seemed to shred tires in about 2 months.

Could this be because of smaller inertia in the CT? With large inertia, there might be more risk of short slips between tire and roller.

Henrik

hmronnow said:

Thanks for fast feedback.

I just realised that the speed-to-power formula for the KK is available. So any bike-computer which records speed for subsequent download would be able to give WKO+ data.

I used to do this. It becomes quite a chore getting the average power for each interval and manually calculating TSS. Once you figure it out for an interval session though, you can just take a swag and use the same TSS value for future workouts. It still WAY better than nothing.
If you get a powertap later on though you are set.

hmronnow said:

Could this be because of smaller inertia in the CT? With large inertia, there might be more risk of short slips between tire and roller.

Henrik

Could be... I actually like lower interia trainers because I train primarily for mountain bike and cyclocross. The computrainer feels just like grinding up a steep hill in the dirt with nobby tires. 😄

hmronnow said:

[font=Arial] [/font][font=Arial]Tacx Cosmos ($1000) and Fortius multiplayer ($1400)[/font]

Henrik -

I purchased a TACX Fortius 2 years ago because of the VR capability. Climbing the Pyrenees or the Alps or doing the Tour of Lombardy or Flanders course was too good to pass up. I also owned a 1st generation Computrainer at one point which I no longer have.

To be quite honest I am terribly disappointed in TACX and the Fortius. In fact it's probably my MOST disappointing purchase in my 20 years of riding an racing, and I've bought a lot of stuff over the years.

The software is flaky and crashes often; Vista support took forever; the support is inconsistent and getting precise advice is tough; keeping my tire from slipping on the flywheel is a constant battle; and the general communication w TACX is weak at best. I recently contacted their US support arm (sent 2 emails), and I didn't even get the courtesy of a return email. 😠

I've invested well north of $ 1500 in this thing and I'd give it away for $ 500 at this point including the above VRs that I mentioned and the steering unit.

If you are seriously considering the TACX, I would advise that you go to the forums and look at the various posts from all the frustrated users.

I'm probably going to buy a KK or some eMotion rollers and just use my SRM as my power monitoring device for indoor rides this winter. Given how frustrated I am w the Fortius I guess I'll just watch old TdF footage to keep my mind occupied when I have to ride the trainer. The sad thing is the VR was incredible, a real time-passer, when it worked.

hmronnow said:

[font=Arial]There seem to be 4 main options:[/font]

[font=Times New Roman]1) [/font][font=Arial]trainer, simple, using my PowerTap wheel as power meter[/font]

I'd say that this is your best option. You won't do damage your wheel; the worst thing that tends to happens is corrosion of the frame because of the amount of sweat, so clean it thoroughly or get one of those 'bike thongs' to keep the sweat off. Tyres do wear quite a bit more quickly though. If you're going to use the turbo exclusively then get a trainer-specific tyre. If you're doing the occasional 2x20 and the rest of the time on the roads then don't worry about it.

hmronnow said:

[font=Times New Roman]2) [/font][font=Arial]trainer with integrated power meter[/font]

mmm, as above, Fortius has its problems. If you're looking for the Virtual Reality stuff I'd recommend the old iMagic set-up from Tacx. It measures power, but you'll need to use your Powertap to calibrate it. Mine is such a hassle to keep calibrated that I just use my PT on it all the time anyway. The VR stuff is good for motivation though if you're planning on spending hours on the thing.

hmronnow said:

[font=Times New Roman]3) [/font][font=Arial]rollers using my PowerTap wheel as power meter[/font]

Getting sufficient resistance is the problem with rollers. You realise with a powermeter that rollers don't get anywhere near the resistance levels of a turbo trainer.

hmronnow said:

[font=Times New Roman]4) [/font][font=Arial]indoor-bicycle with power meter (e.g. CycleOps pro300PT), [/font]

I guess the money is the only downside here.

rob of the og said:

Getting sufficient resistance is the problem with rollers. You realise with a powermeter that rollers don't get anywhere near the resistance levels of a turbo trainer.

If your rollers have a resistance unit then you should be able to get plenty of resistance. Sprinting is just as problematic though.

Quoted post said:

I guess the money is the only downside here.

You can go a lot more expensive than the 300PT. I actually consider them kind of a bargain since you get power measuring, a flywheel, and chain drive (to avoid tire slippage).

rob of the og said:

You won't do damage your wheel; the worst thing that tends to happens is corrosion of the frame because of the amount of sweat, so clean it thoroughly or get one of those 'bike thongs' to keep the sweat off. Tyres do wear quite a bit more quickly though. If you're going to use the turbo exclusively then get a trainer-specific tyre. If you're doing the occasional 2x20 and the rest of the time on the roads then don't worry about it.

The thing is my PowerTap is mounted on wheels with tubular tires.
1) It would be a bit of a nuissance to change tubular tires often
2) Are you sure that it doesn't damage the wheel (I have zip303 tubular with the relatively flexible DT aerolite spokes).

Thanks for all the input,
Henrik

hmronnow said:

The thing is my PowerTap is mounted on wheels with tubular tires.
1) It would be a bit of a nuissance to change tubular tires often
2) Are you sure that it doesn't damage the wheel (I have zip303 tubular with the relatively flexible DT aerolite spokes).

Thanks for all the input,
Henrik

How about a 2nd PT wheel? Just build up a bomb proof wheel with a PT Pro (cheapest PT hub) and train on that.

hmronnow said:

[font=Arial]Any other?[/font]

Velodyne: www.velodynesports.com

hmronnow said:

[font=Arial]d. [/font][font=Arial]Amongst rollers I found these interesting:[/font]

[font=Arial]- [/font][font=Arial]InsideRide E-motion[/font]

[font=Arial]- [/font][font=Arial]TruTrainer[/font]

[font=Arial]- [/font][font=Arial]Kreitler[/font]

I have been thinking about this too as my trainer really sucks and it has been a chore holding anything above 300 W for more than a minute or so. It's a long story but suffice to say that I find the resistance curve with respect to power to be very unrealistic compared to a typical flat road feel and I have to kill myself to get the power that I need while riding it.

A friend of mine who also trains with a power bought some E-motion rollers and he loves them. He doesn't use his trainer anymore. I borrowed his rollers for a week and used them for a couple rides and it (they) were a huge improvement over my trainer. It has four resistance settings and those should give any normal human plenty of resistance. 320 W at ~90 RPM was no problem for me in resistance setting 1 (setting 4 being the hardest). Supposedly you can get up into the 600 -700 W area at "normal" cadences in setting 4.

My other option is to get a Computrainer. The VR aspect totally appeals to me but last year I bought some DVDs of rides up mountains (e.g., the Tacx Real Videos, the Coach Troy stuff, etc.) and riding with those a bit was interesting at first but eventually they were no big deal. The experience taught me that I can get sick of anything and if I am riding indoors, regardless of the stimulation level on the screen, I will lose focus and interest eventually. The problem is the format (riding indoors) and not really the instrument used. For that reason, I decided to pass on buying a Computrainer for now. I realize that I can provide myself a bit more variety in stimulation with enough Computrainer files as opposed to a few VR DVDs but I really feel that I would become bored with that too. Not only that but the E-motion rollers are much less expensive than a Computrainer.

So my current plan for this winter is to ride outdoors as much as I can, get some E-motion rollers, and my strategy for indoor riding is to use the rollers for short, harder efforts. I can hit a reasonable long duration (1 hour +) power on my trainer so it's still an option for longer sessions and the consequences of zoning out are less traumatic (I can watch a movie or something, which I like to do).

I would go with the E-motion rollers it might not work well for sprint training but 3.25 inch rollers have plenty of resistance for everything else. There is an added core strength benefit to free motion rollers and with FMRs the rear wheel stays in the pocket when you're out of the saddle so you maintain your speed. I have some home made FMRs and I like them almost as much as outdoor riding.

hmronnow said:

[font=Arial]d. [/font][font=Arial]Amongst rollers I found these interesting:[/font]

[font=Arial]- [/font][font=Arial]InsideRide E-motion[/font]

[font=Arial]- [/font][font=Arial]TruTrainer[/font]

[font=Arial]- [/font][font=Arial]Kreitler[/font]

[font=Arial]Opinions and alternatives?[/font]

Steve_B said:

...E-motion...were a huge improvement on my trainer.

...I can get sick of anything and if I am riding indoors...

Steve, why did you feel the E-motion were such a huge improvment?

I couldn't agree more with your statement about getting sick of ANYTHING when riding indoors. I'm good for about 45 minutes no matter what the device.

LT Intolerant said:

Steve, why did you feel the E-motion were such a huge improvment?

I couldn't agree more with your statement about getting sick of ANYTHING when riding indoors. I'm good for about 45 minutes no matter what the device.

Take a look at my edits but bascially it was an improvement in terms of being able to deliver high power at a relatively "comfortable effort". By that I mean, 105% of FTP on the E-motion does not require something like a 53x12 at 70 RPM like my trainer does. The numbers are swags from memory but you get the idea - my trainer requires me to struggle too much (IMO) to get to high power and it feels unrealisitic. The 105% hill intervals I do outdoors are much more "comfortable" by comparison as I can keep up a normal cadence. I could never find at comfortable gear/cadence combo for high L4 and above on that thing. (I was thinking of putting a 55 big ring on the bike but that's pain for outdoor riding too.)

As for the boredom: yeah, I mean, there's going to have to be times to ride indoors. I'm going to make the best of it with the the smallest cash outlay I can handle. I will try to keep the sessions what I call "short and violent" (SAV) but there will be times for 90-120 minutes of L3. When that happens, my trainer and an action flick that captivates me on DVD will be the weapon of choice. Diverting my attention for most of the time period is the only way I can get through it.

Hi

strader said:

I have a Kurt Kinetic and a Computrainer, and I much prefer the Computrainer. I like the ability to create a workout with predefined wattage intervals so all I have to worry about is turning over the pedals. I like being able to zone out during the workout (obviously I don't use rollers for this reason). With the Kurt Kinetic you need to concentrate on keeping the power output the same which gets difficult especially during the hard intervals. Another thing I like about the computrainer is I can export the workout to a file and then upload it to WKO+ without needing an on-bike power meter. I keep a cheap mountain bike hooked up to the computrainer, which leaves my powertap equiped road bike free for outdoor rides. Last point in favor of the computrainer has been rear tire life. It has a smaller roller than the KK, so I expected it to produce more tire wear, but I have found the exact opposite. My computrainer has produced almost no tire wear on the michelin carbons and XCR road slicks I use. The KK seemed to shred tires in about 2 months.

I agree with this entirely. I use a PowerTap on the road and a CompuTrainer indoors in a similar way to Strader and I wouldn't swap the setup for anything. I also did a lot of tests comparing the PowerTap and the CompuTrainer and published the results on my blog if you are interested. The results were too close to call and knowing that the power figures for both units were comparable was something I was keen to establish.

If you've got the money I'd go for a CompuTrainer, I had a TACX trainer and hated it, the CompuTrainer is, in my opinion, much more of a proper training tool. Oh yes, I use a Continental trainer tyre on my CompuTrainer and it's brilliant, no mess, very long life, no tyre slip.

Cheers,

PBUK

acoggan said:

Velodyne: www.velodynesports.com

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the link. The web-site is not very informative. Do you have any information on what this trainer has, that the others don't? It seems similar technology - maybe better quality build. There would have to be something to justify the exorbant price of $2900 for the cheapest model.

Thanks,
Henrik

I'm using a Tacx Trainer (old I-Magic not the Fortius). I'm happy with it especially the VR and the DVD's help me a lot with motivation. I've even bought into the idea of the VR League and it's fun competing on VR when you have downloaded a virtual opponent and see him in front of you - or better - loosing ground on you being behind.

There's an old soft (green) and a new (blue). The green gives quite accurate power data but the blue overestimates power dramatically. You have the option to calibrate, though and as I have an ergomo that's what I did.
I presume until I get someone to donate a CT to me 😉 I have to wait for the funds being available and use the Tacx. It's nothing bad but not ideal either. With the Continental trainer tyre wear isn't a problem at all.
And above all, the CT isn't really easy to get in Germany!

Cheers,
bigwillie013

hmronnow said:

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the link. The web-site is not very informative. Do you have any information on what this trainer has, that the others don't? It seems similar technology - maybe better quality build. There would have to be something to justify the exorbant price of $2900 for the cheapest model.

Thanks,
Henrik

Reasons to consider the Velodyne:

1. Accurate power measurement (see my "white paper" on their website).

2. High inertia (10 kg flywheel spinning rapidly).

3. Built like a tank (I've been using mine 3-5 d/wk for almost 20 y).

4. Things happening behind the scene that I can't talk about. 😉

(Note: I have no financial affliation with the company or product.)

When I return to the US someday, I plan on getting an ergo. Just out of curiousity, I hopped on ebay and did a search. There are a bunch of Monarks (the weighted anaerobic testers) on there. I know they've been popular for quite some time. Might be something worth looking at, especially if you can get a deal on a second-hand one.

I have a PT and CT set up in front of my tv. The CT is hooked up to an old computer. Fan nearby.
Best setup I can imagine. CT & PT usually agree. Design erg files based on training plan.
Watching LA &TdF dvds and doing VO2 intervals has never been better.
Mimimal tire wear.
Check out prices of CT on eBay. There is a reason why they hold their resale value.