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Which Helmet

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UK and Europe
Published
31 August 2003
Last activity
2 September 2003
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Ddeckerslyke
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  1. mule said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The answer is "no". I know what I can tackle when I see it.

    That is an *amazing* degree of certainty. I know what I'm willing to have a go at, but that
    isn't the same thing. ISTM you are suffering from at least a little self delusion where it comes
    the degree to which you are truly in control of events and risks. It is not the case that
    uncertainties only arise when cars etc. piloted by others come into the equation.

    Maybe it would have been better to word it differently. All I'm saying is that the decision to
    tackle a certain part of a trail is never based on whether I'm wearing a helmet or not.

    No, it's based on whether you feel "safe". Does a helmet make you feel safer? Join the dots in the
    arguement...

    --
    Marc Stickers,decals,membership,cards, T shirts, signs etc for clubs and associations of all types.
    jaceeprint.demon.co.ukjaceeprint.demon.co.uk

  2. Quoted message said:

    Maybe it would have been better to word it differently. All I'm saying is that the decision to
    tackle a certain part of a trail is never based on whether I'm wearing a helmet or not.

    I shouldn't have said "never". Blast it.

    --
    ...meandering mule...

  3. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yes! Which is precisely why I wear one when I go cycling.

    So, it's a "No- brainer" to wear a helmet at all times whilst walking?

    Hi Marc,

    Hehe. I hope you understood that my reply was a joke. I've been told-off (flamed, grilled!) about
    saying "no brainer" already.

    Use a helmet while walking? No way. I use my thick head of hair to protect me during such
    times. I also have double protection in the form of my skull. Nothing (not even words) will get
    through that...

    --
    ...meandering mule...

  4. mule said:

    You make me sound like a control freak. I never guarantee myself an accident-free ride.

    Mostly your own work! ;-) Don't use absolute language when you're not absolutely sure.

    Quoted message said:

    I can't really deny that there is no way to be sure. All I can say is that I probably take more
    risks than I should (off-road)

    Define "should" a bit more closely... If you're enjoying yourself and continuing to do so on an
    ongoing basis that implies you're very possibly doing no such thing.

    Quoted message said:

    because of the things that I don't do on the road. I do cycle on roads but don't get the same
    satisfaction - maybe because I'm more frightened.

    This is really down to perception, though. The roads are actually pretty safe places. You might be
    in more danger of getting totalled, but it's still not a *large* danger, and there's far less chance
    of a minor prang simply from the more predictable riding surface.

    Quoted message said:

    If you took my helmet away from me on my off-road rides (after a tough struggle and over my dead
    body) I still think that I would tackle the same trail in the same way. Like you say though, I
    guess it can't be measured.

    As we agree, it can't be measured, but the fact that you're so attached to your helmet that you'd
    put up a tough struggle to avoid riding without it, and say you always wear one, does suggest you
    are *not* as happy on trails without one. I'm certainly happier on trails with one, because when I
    do go for a big bash on technical trails on the MTB (not very often, which is part of the problem!)
    I do expect I'll very probably come off (at low speed has been my experience on most occasions) at
    some point in the day. Roads don't cause me to spontaneously eject the way rocky river beds might,
    so I feel I'm less likely to have a low speed head/hard surface interface at the sorts of speeds
    they're designed to whitstand, plus comfort on an MTB is a bit of a moot point compared to my
    recumbent tourer on the road. So I always wear a lid offroad for technical MTB stuff, and would
    probably not make identical route decisions without it. If I'm well within my capabilities, say a
    good Landy track, I'd happily go without, but that's more like a road, and thus more predictable.

    Quoted message said:

    Does any of this make sense?

    I've been in a similar position/POV, but the more I look at the evidence the more I'm convinced I
    was kidding myself. As Guy suggested about the body-armour brigade, I use stuff *precisely* to risk
    compensate. The bike itself is part of this: I use an MTB because I can go over rough stuff at much
    greater speeds than I can manage on my tourer, though that went off-road in plenty of places before
    I had an MTB.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
    dundee.ac.uk~pjclinch

  5. Quoted message said:

    Mostly your own work! ;-) Don't use absolute language when you're not absolutely sure.

    Wot, never? Lol.

    Quoted message said:

    Define "should" a bit more closely... If you're enjoying yourself and continuing to do so on an
    ongoing basis that implies you're very possibly doing no such thing.

    Well - I've had some near-misses recently. I've also hurt myself enough in the past to learn to not
    take as many risks but after a while you forget and end up where you were.

    Quoted message said:

    This is really down to perception, though. The roads are actually pretty safe places. You might be
    in more danger of getting totalled, but it's still not a *large* danger, and there's far less
    chance of a minor prang simply from the more predictable riding surface.

    Hmmmm. I still much prefer off-road, not because of the fun factor but also because I "feel" safer.
    I've never had an accident on-road but I don't ride on-road nearly as much as I do off-road - maybe
    why it frightens me more.

    Quoted message said:

    As we agree, it can't be measured, but the fact that you're so attached to your helmet that you'd
    put up a tough struggle to avoid riding without it, and say you always wear one, does suggest you
    are *not* as happy on trails without one. I'm certainly happier on trails

    No I wouldn't feel as happy without one but I'd still need to ride. I'd probably (again not a
    certainty) still ride the same trails in the same fashion.

    Quoted message said:

    I've been in a similar position/POV, but the more I look at the evidence the more I'm convinced
    I was kidding myself. As Guy suggested about the body-armour brigade, I use stuff *precisely*
    to risk compensate. The bike itself is part of this: I use an MTB because I can go over rough
    stuff at much greater speeds than I can manage on my tourer, though that went off-road in
    plenty of places

    Hmmmm. I don't totally agree with you on this one. Sure you can go off-road on your tourer (I've
    seen one of my friends take his Moulton off-road) but surely the mtb is designed (from scratch) for
    off-road so you can't really call it "risk compensation"? The tourer was never designed (AFAIK) with
    mtb-type trails in mind.

    --
    ...meandering mule...

  6. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    >> "marc" == marc <[email hidden]> writes:

    Quoted message said:
    mule said:
    Quoted message said:

    Have you ever tripped over whilst walking and fallen to the


    ground? > Were you wearing a helmet? > Did you feel later that you should have been?

    Yes! Which is precisely why I wear one when I go cycling.

    Quoted message said:

    So, it's a "No- brainer" to wear a helmet at all times whilst walking?

    ... and also a no-brainer to wear a motor-cycle helmet and fireproof suit when driving a car.

  7. mule said:

    Hmmmm. I don't totally agree with you on this one. Sure you can go off-road on your tourer (I've
    seen one of my friends take his Moulton off-road) but surely the mtb is designed (from scratch)
    for off-road so you can't really call it "risk compensation"? The tourer was never designed
    (AFAIK) with mtb-type trails in mind.

    MTBs have *evolved* from tourers: the Rough Stuff fellowship have been going off road for decades
    before the MTB was dreamed up.

    There are infinite gradations of trail, from stuff which is no trouble even on a racer with 23mm
    tyres at 100 psi, to stuff which *needs* a full sus descent bike and a lobotomy to contemplate it.
    So on this graded scale I will do far harder stuff on my MTB than I will on anything else, because
    the bike enables me to do that. I compensate for the greater demands of the trail with a bike more
    capable of tackling
    it. It's not quite the same thing, I'll grant you, as the MTB was not introduced to make off-road
    riding safer. But the fact that I could either do the same trail I used to on my tourer at the
    same speed in more safety, or faster on the MTB at a similar level of risk, uses the same
    principle. I choose to go fsater on the MTB, because I find I'm happy to operate at a similar
    risk level.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
    dundee.ac.uk~pjclinch

  8. On 1 Sep 2003 13:58:00 GMT, mule <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:

    ... I suppose that I don't see the harm in wearing a helmet

    4 principal means of harm from wearing helmets:

    Wearing a helmet increases the moment arm available for torsional forces applied to the head about
    the axis of the neck, by about 35% at the sides of the head. Spinning the brain about that axis is a
    bad thing. as for instance, for car driver/passengers in accidents, /this/ movement, and not
    crushing blows, is the most common cause of coma.

    The additional moment arm can be used to apply additional force to the neck vertebrae from blows to
    the 'rim' of head the compared to not wearing a helmet.

    The head+helmet may easily contact the ground in circumstances where head-without-helmet would not
    have. Remember, we have reflexes built-in which tend to make us act to curl the head away from the
    impact points of falls.

    Lastly, and by no means leastly, there's risk compemsation, demonstrated by such experiments as
    measuring the where drivers apply the brakes at a given speed relative to the position of th ething
    they're braking for.

    Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: gawnsoft.co.srgawnsoft.co.sr Symbian/Epoc wiki: html.dnsalias.nethtml.dnsalias.net
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) html.dnsalias.netsmalltalk

  9. Gawnsoft <[email hidden]>typed

    Quoted message said:

    On 1 Sep 2003 13:58:00 GMT, mule <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:

    ... I suppose that I don't see the harm in wearing a helmet

    Quoted message said:

    4 principal means of harm from wearing helmets:

    Quoted message said:

    Wearing a helmet increases the moment arm available for torsional forces applied to the head about
    the axis of the neck, by about 35% at the sides of the head. Spinning the brain about that axis is
    a bad thing. as for instance, for car driver/passengers in accidents, /this/ movement, and not
    crushing blows, is the most common cause of coma.

    Quoted message said:

    The additional moment arm can be used to apply additional force to the neck vertebrae from blows
    to the 'rim' of head the compared to not wearing a helmet.

    Quoted message said:

    The head+helmet may easily contact the ground in circumstances where head-without-helmet would not
    have. Remember, we have reflexes built-in which tend to make us act to curl the head away from the
    impact points of falls.

    Quoted message said:

    Lastly, and by no means leastly, there's risk compemsation, demonstrated by such experiments as
    measuring the where drivers apply the brakes at a given speed relative to the position of th
    ething they're braking for.

    And you missed out damage to the larynx from a helmet strap.

    Having seen & treated a horserider with a mild laryngeal injury from her hat, I would warn cyclist
    of the possibility.

    If the helmet tips back on your head and crushes your throat you could die from an obstructed airway
    faster than you would die from a head injury...

    --
    Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden] Edgware.

  10. On Mon, 01 Sep 2003 19:30:38 +0100, Gawnsoft <[email hidden]>
    wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:

    On 1 Sep 2003 13:58:00 GMT, mule <[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

    Quoted message said:

    ... I suppose that I don't see the harm in wearing a helmet

    4 principal means of harm from wearing helmets:

    Wearing a helmet increases the moment arm available for torsional forces applied to the head about
    the axis of the neck, by about 35% at the sides of the head. Spinning the brain about that axis is
    a bad thing. as for instance, for car driver/passengers in accidents, /this/ movement, and not
    crushing blows, is the most common cause of coma.

    The additional moment arm can be used to apply additional force to the neck vertebrae from blows to
    the 'rim' of head the compared to not wearing a helmet.

    The head+helmet may easily contact the ground in circumstances where head-without-helmet would not
    have. Remember, we have reflexes built-in which tend to make us act to curl the head away from the
    impact points of falls.

    Lastly, and by no means leastly, there's risk compemsation, demonstrated by such experiments as
    measuring the where drivers apply the brakes at a given speed relative to the position of th ething
    they're braking for.

    err - forgot the 'when wearing, and then when not wearing, a seat belt.'

    Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: gawnsoft.co.srgawnsoft.co.sr Symbian/Epoc wiki: html.dnsalias.nethtml.dnsalias.net
    Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) html.dnsalias.netsmalltalk

  11. Paul Rudin said:


    Quoted message said:
    mule said:

    > Have you ever tripped over whilst walking and fallen to the
    ground? > Were you wearing a helmet? > Did you feel later that you should have been?

    Yes! Which is precisely why I wear one when I go cycling.

    Quoted message said:

    So, it's a "No- brainer" to wear a helmet at all times whilst walking?

    ... and also a no-brainer to wear a motor-cycle helmet and fireproof suit when driving a car.

    Absolutely! Although having worn a FIA 3 layer Nomex suit complete with extra layer of Nomex
    underwear, with helmet, in 80 degree heat, inside a rally car, I'm firmly of the opinion that the
    stuff isn't fireproof at all, but that you're so bloody hot inside it all that when the fire starts
    you don't notice.

  12. Helen Deborah Vecht said:


    And you missed out damage to the larynx from a helmet strap.

    Having seen & treated a horserider with a mild laryngeal injury from her hat, I would warn cyclist
    of the possibility.

    If the helmet tips back on your head and crushes your throat you could die from an obstructed
    airway faster than you would die from a head injury...

    For some reason I have an overwhelming urge to clear my throat all the time.

    --
    Andy Morris

    AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

    Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
    home.in.tum.deoe quotefix

  13. "AndyMorris" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    For some reason I have an overwhelming urge to clear my throat all the


    time.

    <sings> Who wants to be a millionaire? </sings>

    --
    Guy
    ===

    WARNING: may contain traces of irony. Contents may settle after posting.
    chapmancentral.comchapmancentral.com

  14. Just zis Guy said:

    <sings> Who wants to be a millionaire? </sings>

    I don't... Don't worry about being rich, just have enough money to do and buy everything you want!
    ;-) I'll start off with a selection of Tricen, an 8 Freight, a Speedmachine, a Birdy Grey (only in a
    more interesting colour) etc. etc.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
    dundee.ac.uk~pjclinch

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