Which Birdy Folder?

Quoted message said:

So what are the benefits and drawbacks of each gearing system? I like
the idea of the 8-speed hub as I don't have to think about gearing and
can just switch to a gear to get me quickly away from traffic lights.
The gear range seems adequate for my needs. Unlike most I also like the
idea that it's a "black box" and that I don't have to do any
maintenance on it (I do maintenance grudgingly so anywhere I can reduce
this makes me happy). Are they really "draggy" though as some people
say?

If you're aiming to get between A and B absolutely as fast as possible
then the slightly lower efficiency and greater weight of a hub will slow
you down. You might arrive, ooooh, up to a as much as a couple of
*whole minutes* later!
Or put another way, if you don't need the absolute best efficiency a hub
is fine, just as long as the range is big enough. I think you're right
in assessing this unit as okay for general purpose urban use, and I also
concur with your observations of convenience in use and minimal maintenance.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand the Touring has more gears but I'm not sure, given
what I'm using the bike for, if that will be of any use to me (and
there is duplication in the ratios, from what I understand, with a
24-speed which reduces the number of useable gears). I can't fathom
whether a combined hub/derailleur 24-speed gearing system is a good
idea or a bad idea.

The duplication is a side effect: the main point is you get a much
bigger overall /range/ of gearing with a twin system (be it
hub/derailleur or front and rear derailleur). Which means you can get
up big, steep and long hills with luggage as well as getting down the
other side and always have something approaching a good gear ratio for
the job. An 8 speed system will lose somewhere along the line, you'll
either spin out before your maximum is reached, or you'll grind to a
halt up big hills. Neither is much of an issue most of the time on a
practical working bike, it can limit you for touring though, especially
in hillier country.

You can go for the best of both worlds and get the Rohloff version. All
you need is a considerably larger bank balance! The Rohloff gives you
the range of a dual setup, very good efficiency and the convenience of a
hub. It ain't cheap though :-(

Quoted message said:

One other thing I can't figure out is the braking system on the City.

Quoted message said:

From the images there are only two cables coming from the handlebars

which leads me to believe there is either no rear braking or braking
via the hub gears perhaps using the pedals (is this what you call a
coaster brake?)

It's got a coaster brake that's built into the Nexus hub as standard

Quoted message said:

Is such a braking system awkward to use

For the first few minutes it's well weird if you've not used one before,
but once you've dialled in it's pretty much a non-issue IME.

Quoted message said:

and does it
cause drag at unwanted times

No.

Other thing to decide is what handlebars you want, the sportier swept
forward or the swept back bars. The latter will give you a more upright
position which will affect comfort: more weight on your bum, less on
your hands, and which is better depends on you. The swept back bars
will also mean more air resistance from a more upright posture, not much
of an issue for general urban riding but of you want to optimise
performance then it's not so good.

I'd advise mudguards and some sort of luggage carrying from the standard
Birdy options list for use as a general purpose hack bike.

Birdys are nice machines, they'd be somewhere near the top of my list
for a "one bike fits all" solution.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

[email hidden] wrote on 23/11/2006 12:22 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Any advice is most welcome!

Go for the hub gears for commuting. The 24 gears probably doesn't have
many more effective gears what with range overlaps etc and are outside
exposed to the elements and dirt while the hub gears are all nicely
hidden away. While the front brake is the important one, I would avoid
a coaster brake if you can. Read Sheldon Brown on braking at
http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Peter Clinch wrote on 23/11/2006 12:59 +0100:

Quoted message said:

The duplication is a side effect: the main point is you get a much
bigger overall /range/ of gearing with a twin system (be it
hub/derailleur or front and rear derailleur). Which means you can get
up big, steep and long hills with luggage as well as getting down the
other side and always have something approaching a good gear ratio for
the job. An 8 speed system will lose somewhere along the line, you'll
either spin out before your maximum is reached, or you'll grind to a
halt up big hills. Neither is much of an issue most of the time on a
practical working bike, it can limit you for touring though, especially
in hillier country.

You can go for the best of both worlds and get the Rohloff version. All
you need is a considerably larger bank balance! The Rohloff gives you
the range of a dual setup, very good efficiency and the convenience of a
hub. It ain't cheap though :-(

This is commuting in London we are talking about. London doesn't do big
hills.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Tony Raven said:

This is commuting in London we are talking about. London doesn't do big
hills.

But since the OP doesn't know the exact uses the bike will be put to
that might not be releavnt. My 3 speed Brom is all I need to get around
Dundee, and it /does/ do big hills, but I wouldn't want to go touring on
it, even day touring beyond the odd day when it's the only bike available.

The City version would be a great commuter bike. The Tour version is a
good do-everything bike.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch twisted the electrons to say:

Quoted message said:

Birdys are nice machines, they'd be somewhere near the top of my list
for a "one bike fits all" solution.

<nods> Had my first go on a Birdy (Touring) yesterday, and very nice it
was too! If I hadn't gone over to the darkside early last year, I could
see myself being *really* tempted by a Birdy. (I suppose I am *still* a
bit tempted, but have no money!)
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

Tony Raven said:

This is commuting in London we are talking about. London doesn't do big
hills.

It does big enough. If you happen to live in Hampstead or Finchley or
alternatively your route goes over Crystal Palace and you want to haul
a bit of a load it helps to have a low gear to grind up the incline.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

In article said:

Quoted message said:

One other thing I can't figure out is the braking system on the City.

Quoted message said:

From the images there are only two cables coming from the handlebars

which leads me to believe there is either no rear braking or braking
via the hub gears perhaps using the pedals (is this what you call a
coaster brake?)

It's got a coaster brake that's built into the Nexus hub as standard

I'm sure the City I tried had two brake levers, but maybe LBS had
changed it from the standard spec.

Googling, I see http://www.spoke.co.uk/Birdy.htm offer a rear V-brake
for the City as an option, so if you decide you want the hub gears
but don't like the coaster brake, it would be worth asking your shop
about that.

Alan Braggins said:

In article said:

Quoted message said:

One other thing I can't figure out is the braking system on the City.
>From the images there are only two cables coming from the handlebars
which leads me to believe there is either no rear braking or braking
via the hub gears perhaps using the pedals (is this what you call a
coaster brake?)

It's got a coaster brake that's built into the Nexus hub as standard

I'm sure the City I tried had two brake levers, but maybe LBS had
changed it from the standard spec.

Googling, I see http://www.spoke.co.uk/Birdy.htm offer a rear V-brake
for the City as an option, so if you decide you want the hub gears
but don't like the coaster brake, it would be worth asking your shop
about that.

Bikefix offer either 8-speed hub with freewheel or 8-speed hub with
coaster brake. I'm assuming they fit a rear V-brake if I choose the
freewheel hub!

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

So what are the benefits and drawbacks of each gearing system? I like
the idea of the 8-speed hub as I don't have to think about gearing and
can just switch to a gear to get me quickly away from traffic lights.
The gear range seems adequate for my needs. Unlike most I also like the
idea that it's a "black box" and that I don't have to do any
maintenance on it (I do maintenance grudgingly so anywhere I can reduce
this makes me happy). Are they really "draggy" though as some people
say?

If you're aiming to get between A and B absolutely as fast as possible
then the slightly lower efficiency and greater weight of a hub will slow
you down. You might arrive, ooooh, up to a as much as a couple of
*whole minutes* later!
Or put another way, if you don't need the absolute best efficiency a hub
is fine, just as long as the range is big enough. I think you're right
in assessing this unit as okay for general purpose urban use, and I also
concur with your observations of convenience in use and minimal maintenance.

Quoted message said:

On the other hand the Touring has more gears but I'm not sure, given
what I'm using the bike for, if that will be of any use to me (and
there is duplication in the ratios, from what I understand, with a
24-speed which reduces the number of useable gears). I can't fathom
whether a combined hub/derailleur 24-speed gearing system is a good
idea or a bad idea.

The duplication is a side effect: the main point is you get a much
bigger overall /range/ of gearing with a twin system (be it
hub/derailleur or front and rear derailleur). Which means you can get
up big, steep and long hills with luggage as well as getting down the
other side and always have something approaching a good gear ratio for
the job. An 8 speed system will lose somewhere along the line, you'll
either spin out before your maximum is reached, or you'll grind to a
halt up big hills. Neither is much of an issue most of the time on a
practical working bike, it can limit you for touring though, especially
in hillier country.

When you say spin out do you mean the pedals are moving faster than I
can manage to keep up? Are the pedals fixed in gear such that on
downhill stints I can't just coast with my feet resting stationary on
the pedals?

Quoted message said:

You can go for the best of both worlds and get the Rohloff version. All
you need is a considerably larger bank balance! The Rohloff gives you
the range of a dual setup, very good efficiency and the convenience of a
hub. It ain't cheap though :-(

Yes the Rohloff would be the one I would buy in an ideal world. While I
can justify the cheaper models by setting commuting costs against the
bike costs it gets harder to do so when the bike price doubles simply
because of a different set of gears!

Thanks for your help.

Tony

Peter Clinch said:

[email hidden] wrote:

It's got a coaster brake that's built into the Nexus hub as standard

Quoted message said:

Is such a braking system awkward to use

For the first few minutes it's well weird if you've not used one before,
but once you've dialled in it's pretty much a non-issue IME.

However looking at the Bikefix site they list 8 speed hub with a
freeweel as an option instead of the coaster brake.

http://www.bikefix.co.uk/index.php >folding>birdy city>options

I make it GBP1096 with guards and expedition rack (you need both for
panniers) so it ain't cheap.

If the fixed swept-forward stem on the red suits your position and the
gearing is OK you could save a bit of dosh on an eight speed birdy
provided you don't mind a frame welded from bits of pipe. :-)

Quoted message said:

Other thing to decide is what handlebars you want, the sportier swept
forward or the swept back bars. The latter will give you a more upright
position which will affect comfort: more weight on your bum, less on
your hands, and which is better depends on you. The swept back bars
will also mean more air resistance from a more upright posture, not much
of an issue for general urban riding but of you want to optimise
performance then it's not so good.

I'd advise mudguards and some sort of luggage carrying from the standard
Birdy options list for use as a general purpose hack bike.

I'd also suggest some bar ends but then I'm coming at it from a
roadies perspective where the default grip is with the palms vertical.
I find them essential for those times I want to really heave on the
bars.

Quoted message said:

Birdys are nice machines, they'd be somewhere near the top of my list
for a "one bike fits all" solution.

Mine too.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

in message <[email hidden]>,

(') said:

After going through which bikes might be suitable I've settled on a
Birdy folder but I'm a bit uncertain which model to get. I've narrowed
it down to between the "City" and the "Touring" models but still can't
make my mind up. The main difference between the two is the gears. The
city has a Shimano 8-speed Nexus hub gear where as the Touring has a
24-speed Shimano Intego system with a standard 8 speed derailleur
combined with a 3 speed hub gear.

So what are the benefits and drawbacks of each gearing system? I like
the idea of the 8-speed hub as I don't have to think about gearing and
can just switch to a gear to get me quickly away from traffic lights.
The gear range seems adequate for my needs. Unlike most I also like the
idea that it's a "black box" and that I don't have to do any
maintenance on it (I do maintenance grudgingly so anywhere I can reduce
this makes me happy). Are they really "draggy" though as some people
say?

There are really very few disadvantages to a hub gear system, particularly
on a bike used for commuting. The only downsides are very small weight
penalty and a very small efficiency penalty when compared to a clean,
well-adjusted derailleur system. But as derailleur systems are rarely
either clean or well-adjusted, particularly on bikes used for commuting, I
wouldn't be too put off by this.

Hub gear systems are a lot easier to maintain than derailleurs, and a lot
less susceptible to damage. If anything breaks critically then the repair
is more complex, but then that rarely happens and would probably be an LBS
job anyway.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth
;; knowledge increaseth sorrow.." - Ecclesiastes 1:18

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

An 8 speed system will lose somewhere along the line, you'll
either spin out before your maximum is reached, or you'll grind to a
halt up big hills. Neither is much of an issue most of the time on a
practical working bike, it can limit you for touring though, especially
in hillier country.

When you say spin out do you mean the pedals are moving faster than I
can manage to keep up? Are the pedals fixed in gear such that on
downhill stints I can't just coast with my feet resting stationary on
the pedals?

No in this case it means you can't spin the pedals fast enough to
impart any drive. You have to freewheel or ride slower.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Simon Brooke wrote on 23/11/2006 14:44 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Hub gear systems are a lot easier to maintain than derailleurs, and a lot
less susceptible to damage. If anything breaks critically then the repair
is more complex, but then that rarely happens and would probably be an LBS
job anyway.

And you can use proper chains which last unlike those modern 10 speed
jobbies ;-)

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Simon Brooke said:

There are really very few disadvantages to a hub gear system, particularly
on a bike used for commuting. The only downsides are very small weight
penalty and a very small efficiency penalty when compared to a clean,
well-adjusted derailleur system.

And cost, at least for a Rohloff. Lesser hub gears are still generally
more expensive than derailleurs, but the reduced maintenance offsets that,
at least to some extent.

in message <[email hidden]>, Alan Braggins

(') said:

Simon Brooke said:

There are really very few disadvantages to a hub gear system,
particularly on a bike used for commuting. The only downsides are very
small weight penalty and a very small efficiency penalty when compared to
a clean, well-adjusted derailleur system.

And cost, at least for a Rohloff. Lesser hub gears are still generally
more expensive than derailleurs, but the reduced maintenance offsets
that, at least to some extent.

Hooo....! I wouldn't say that at all. The cheapest rear mech on any of my
bikes is a Campag Veloce costing about £43; add to that a front mech, (my
cheapest is a SRAM X-Gen costing £20), a cassette (my cheapest is a Campag
Centaur, about £55), a double or triple chainset (Nexus - for hub gear -
is £20; my cheapest one in current use is a Campag Centaur at about £58,
so the difference is £38), and a narrow gauge chain (my cheapest at
present is a PC971 at £15, vs a Nexus chain at about £8. Oh - and
shifters - SRAM X9s at £45 the pair.

So that's £208 for a derailleur system as against about £98 for the
top-of-the range Nexus (+ shifter at £15). OK, so the kit I use isn't the
cheapest, but it's a long way from the most expensive.

And if you look at a SRAM X-0 or Force, or a Campag Record or Chorus, or a
Shimano Dura-Ace drive train, any of those will make a Rohloff look very
cheap.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Hobbit ringleader gives Sauron One in the Eye.

Quoted message said:

Yes the Rohloff would be the one I would buy in an ideal world. While I
can justify the cheaper models by setting commuting costs against the
bike costs it gets harder to do so when the bike price doubles simply
because of a different set of gears!

Try offsetting against gym membership as well and see if you can justify it
that way. :-)
--
Chris

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm completely fed up commuting on the tube and I'm going to get a
folding bike to commute to work from my small flat in South London to
the city centre. Currently it will be a 10 mile round trip, extending
to 16 miles in March. Should I move out of London within the next
couple of years then I'll use the bike for getting to and from the
train stations and carrying it on the train.

<snip><snip>.

Quoted message said:

Any advice is most welcome!

Tony

Without prejudice have you looked at the Airnimal range. I had a good look
at them at the Excel show last October but they were not for me but they
appear to be well founded.

I have just bought a Thorn Raven Tour (not a folder of course) but I am ,
as I thought I might be, a total convert to internal hub gears.

I've now done over 200 miles on my new bike and already find many
advantages to having the Rohloff 14 speed hub -- and it has been used just
on local shopping and familiarisation trips so far. I am sure the 8 speed
Nexus gives similar advantages for an in town commuting bike.
Lets face it ( and I speak as a long distance cycle camper) derailleur
systems need a lot of maintenance and are dirty for a commuting bike ( I
apply similar criteria to my touring trips -- I look forward next year to
not having to do my daily, evening cleaning and maintenance session while
on tour).

--
Trevor A Panther
In South Yorkshire,
England, United Kingdom.
www.tapan.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Pinky wrote on 23/11/2006 19:25 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Without prejudice have you looked at the Airnimal range. I had a good look
at them at the Excel show last October but they were not for me but they
appear to be well founded.

Airnimal's big problem for this sort of thing is the front wheel which
is left over when you fold it. Similarly with the Bike Friday but its
the handlebars and stem, not the wheel that is left over. Both the
Birdy and Brompton make neat self contained packages. Don't know how
the Mezzo is doing these days. Anyone know?

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Simon Brooke said:

Hub gear systems are a lot easier to maintain than derailleurs, and a lot
less susceptible to damage. If anything breaks critically then the repair
is more complex, but then that rarely happens and would probably be an LBS
job anyway.

It can take longer to get the rear wheel off if you need to repair a
puncture. The first time I did it, it took about an hour, luckily in my
nice warm shed. Then I RTFM and I have now got it down to a fine art and
take about 5 min, but it is never going to be as fast as removing a
wheel on a dérailleur system.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

"The war isn't the war between the blacks and the whites, the liberals
and the conservatives, or the Federation and the Romulans. It's between
the clueful and the clueless." (an anonymous poster on cypherpunks list)