Where was the tour cop today?

When Mayo is wearing the yellow jersey, and there are only three or four stages left in this years tour--then you might be able to make a sensible comparison. Until then, this situation bears no similarity whatsoever to the situation in which Armstrong fell last year (while wearing the yellow jersey, with only a few days of competition left).
Jeff

That true as I understand it is an unwritten gentlemans agreement or understanding that the leader will be extended this courtesy. I don't think they can be penalized for not slowing down. But it might come back to haunt them the next time.
If they slowed down everytime someone crashed it would be a very slow race

Was Ullrich in yellow when he crashed and Lance waited? I don't honesly remember, but I don't think he was.

This situation was definitely for Lance to show his colors in this race, and I think he did. I don't think he will honor any code written or unwritten. He's got one thing on his mind this year.

my $.02

Partly because of this post from the live report on cyclingnews.com

Quoted post said:

16:19 CEST 170km/40km to go
The Mayo group are coming back towards the leading bunch, but only slowly - it doesn't look as though they're going to get back before the second section of pave. T-Mobile, US Postal and Phonak are all working hard on the front (whatever happened to not attacking favourites who crash, I hear you ask - and have no answer). Illes Baleares have moved up to help in the chasing group, to work for Denis Menchov. The sprinters' teams are all taking it nice and easy for the moment.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by martin_j001
When Mayo is wearing the yellow jersey, and there are only three or four stages left in this years tour--then you might be able to make a sensible comparison. Until then, this situation bears no similarity whatsoever to the situation in which Armstrong fell last year (while wearing the yellow jersey, with only a few days of competition left).
Jeff

[LINK]voy.com38736.htmlOpen ↗[/LINK]

This post is interesting. I think it might shed some light on this subject. The second point makes some sense.

I still believe Lance will not be so "kind" this year though. Just as I am sure many of the "others" won't be as well....

Should be a good race....

As mentioned by others, this was a completely different story.

-- As mentioned, Mayo was not in yellow and we are in the earlier stages. Also, the person who fell (Mayo) has not won any TdFs, unlike LA.

-- Second, Mayo had a number of teammates who were available to help pace him back to certain other riders (potentially), although that would have been difficult. When LA was waited for, he did not yet have Chechu on hand to help pace him.

-- Third, everybody was jostling to get to the cobbles in the front of the group -- this was coming up after Mayo's fall. That was for their own personal safety. They could not have risked losing their own relative position (to other riders who didn't fall) for the sake of assisting Mayo.

-- Fourth, this was a **much larger group** (a very significant distinction) of people who would have had to "wait" than the group that waited for LA. Coordination with such a large group is difficult. The size of the group further confirmed that no waiting was needed, because it was like Mayo and his group separated themselves from most of the other riders.

-- Fifth, Mayo was not the victim of a musette (an item unrelated to the riders and the race), like LA was. True, LA might have been riding close to the holder of the musette, but the musette was an extraneous event introduced into the race by a bystander. If Mayo had been tripped up by a bystander, that would have still not justified the peloton waiting. However, Mayo was not tripped up by a bystander.

This is highlighted by the fact that everybody knew the cobbles and the section leading up to them would be dangerous and required vigilance. It's not like Mayo didn't know that.

-- Sixth, LA had built up goodwill/respect from JA and TH. So, they chose to wait for him. Why should LA/JA and TH wait for Mayo? What has he done for them lately?

Mayo was in a crash before the pave section, when the tempo being set was already high with everyone trying to be the first ones into the cobbled section. It's not as if Mayo crashed and then Armstrong, Ullrich and Hamilton sent there guys to the front to step up the pace, the pace was already stepped up, and it's unfortunate for Mayo that he crashed at that unfortunate time.

Why should the "waiting" on somebody only depend on the fact that he wears yellow and a few stages left.

How much is "few"?

I thought the idea behind this was not to win only because your competitor had bad luck but to let the better man win. And Mayo was one of the favorites.

I don't think anything was done wrong today. Mayo was unfortunate to crash where he did but as mentioned the pace was already high and it was a big group that lost contact on the pave. Although I do think USP and Phonak kept the pace up after the pave knowing Mayo would lose time. That said I didn't think they should have waited for LA last year.

Even Mayo concedes people shouldn't have "waited" for him. Procycling reports:

"Asked if he was surprised when his yellow jersey rivals took advantage of his fall rather than waiting for him, Mayo said: 'That was the normal thing to do. I would have done the same thing in the place of Armstrong and co.'... Over at US Postal, feelings were much more upbeat. George Hincapie was one of the team’s key riders on the stage and he described the first stretch as 'very stressful. On big cobbles like that it's imperative to stay at the front. I'm very happy at the way it turned out. We heard that Mayo had fallen, **but it would have been impossible to slow down and wait then.** The headwind really took its toll. When we came off the cobbles Eki and I were too tired to keep driving after an effort like that. Leipheimer and Heras had caught up by then, so Liberty and Rabobank were happy to take up the chase.' Asked by one journalist if his team should have waited in the same way some riders did when Lance Armstrong crashed at Luz Ardiden last year, US Postal team boss Johan Bruyneel said: 'I don't see why we should have waited for Mayo. No one waited for the yellow jersey.'"
🙂

Consider also that USPS is not a runaway favorite in the conditions of this stage. The crosswinds were very significant, and CSC has dominated classics races this season under these conditions. If Team CSC's Jens Voigt hadn't broken away early on, it may have been their game again today.

And remember that if the main peloton had waited for Mayo, it would have lost time to the 2 breakaway riders, Bram De Groot and Jens Voight. I don't think these two would have waited, considering they were at a disadvantage as it is. They were already pushing by themselves for many, many km. The peloton, with it's cadre of sensational sprinters, would not have given up their day in the sun by waiting for Mayo while these two riders rode on to glory.

In OLNTV coverage, LA is interviewed post-race, and suggested that the riders were going relatively quickly, around 40 speed, and that therefore it wasn't appropriate for the riders in front to stop on the first cobbles. Then, he said that the riders who were already in front wanted to stay in front through the second cobbles, so they did. Of course, everybody knows USPS wanted to put in time to Mayo. But of course LA made it sound like he didn't want to do Mayo in. 😉

Quoted post said:

-- As mentioned, Mayo was not in yellow and we are in the earlier stages. Also, the person who fell (Mayo) has not won any TdFs, unlike LA

So they should all wait for LA if he falls just because he has won the race before. That's so nice to make it easy for him to win again. :p

The pave section that they were approaching and jostling for position etc. How long is the pave area before they are back onto smooth road?
I get the impression it's not very long. (we only get highlights). So if thats the case then sure they could still maintain speed and position until safely through the area and then ease off to wait, therefore posing no danger.

It does certainly sound like Mayo's fall was taken advantage of, the pave section a conveniant reason.

I do believe though that a race is a race, the best prepared, smartest tactition, best luck etc. should win. I don't think LA's fall last year was bad luck he put himself in that position & paid the penalty, Rider error!
As has been mentioned about Mayo, he could have put himself in a better position and limiting the chances of a fall, so rider error.
Rider Error is a part of racing.

So essentially, why wait if a rider cocks up his own race?

Maybe this years race is going to bit a little more cut throat with so many competative GC riders.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Trev_S
The pave section that they were approaching and jostling for position etc. How long is the pave area before they are back onto smooth road?
I get the impression it's not very long. (we only get highlights). So if thats the case then sure they could still maintain speed and position until safely through the area and then ease off to wait, therefore posing no danger.
[/QUOTE]
Both sections of pave were around 3KM in total, both USP and Phonak kept the pace up after the second section until the sprinter teams took it on. Like you said they were intentionally putting pressure on Mayo and I also agree there is nothing wrong with this. Also if it had been LA in the same position regardless of how many tdf he has won or if he was in yellow there would be nothing wrong in not waiting for him, tbh I would encourage it.

Consider another reason why nobody needed to wait for Mayo:

-- His time loss to the LA/JU/TH group was increased after his crash. If Eusaktel had better responded, the gap (if there were one) upon the finish would not have been so large.

-More crucially, Euskatel had a *significiantly weaker* rouleur team/TTT/ITT team than, say, USPS. If it had been LA who fell at the time Mayo did and nobody waited for LA, USPS could have more readily paced LA back to the peloton by TTT. LA could have done a better job pacing himself back to the peloton because he is better on flats/ITT than Mayo.

So whose fault is it that the team was insufficient to pace the leader back? Obviously, Euskatel's. The team is not designed to be as strong in these kinds of situations and that's why it paid! 🙂

-- Euskatel should have reiterated to Menchov the need for him to help Euskatel because he would also lose considerable time. Menchov should have been more helpful.

-- I wouldn't be surprised if USPS had planned using the cobbles to rid themselves of somebody of potential GC thread to LA (possibly Heras or Mayo). The cobbles can be utilized a bit like the wind under certain conditions -- to blow apart the peloton.

Also, Bruyneel is strategic enough to know that, even if it were one of the better TTT teams (like Phonak, relative to Euskatel) that were caught off the main group of the peloton, having that team have to essentially TTT back to the peloton would damage that team's chances in the TTT the next day.

This is a similar strategy to what Bruyneel used in the stage prior to the ITT for the Vuelta 03.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2003/vuelta03/?id=results/stage12

Among the riders caught outside the first part of the peloton were Aitor González and Dario Frigo lost 1'09 in the GC. Right before Stage 12, the GC read as follows:

1 Isidro Nozal (Spa) O.N.C.E.-Eroski 37.12.40
2 Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano (Spa) O.N.C.E.-Eroski 1.48
3 Manuel Beltran (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 3.03
**4 Dario Frigo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 3.05**
**5 Roberto Heras (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 3.28**
6 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) iBanesto.com 3.40
7 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 3.57
**8 Aitor Gonzalez (Spa) Fassa Bortolo 4.00**
9 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 4.04
10 Unai Osa (Spa) iBanesto.com 4.14

Here were the relevant standings after Stage 12::

1 Isidro Nozal (Spa) O.N.C.E.-Eroski 40.54.29
2 Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano (Spa) O.N.C.E.-Eroski 1.48
3 Manuel Beltran (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 3.03
**4 Roberto Heras (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 3.28**
5 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) iBanesto.com 3.40
6 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 4.04
**7 Dario Frigo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 4.14**
8 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 5.06
**9 Aitor Gonzalez (Spa) Fassa Bortolo 5.09**

In each case, USPS could have had a strategy of seeing who would be lost when the peloton split, and then taking advantage if there were significant GC contenders in the back part of the peloton/after it.

What happens after the ITT? The GC is as follows:

Isidro Nozal (Spa) O.N.C.E.-Eroski 41.56.32
2 Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano (Spa) O.N.C.E.-Eroski 3.03
**3 Roberto Heras (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 5.13**
4 Manuel Beltran (Spa) US Postal-Berry Floor 5.39
5 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) iBanesto.com 7.12
6 Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 7.50
7 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank 8.44
8 Luis Perez (Spa) Cofidis, Le Crédit par Téléphone 8.49
**9 Dario Frigo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 8.50**
10 Unai Osa (Spa) iBanesto.com 10.10
**11 Aitor Gonzalez (Spa) Fassa Bortolo 10.57**

Frigo and A Gonzalez have effectively been eliminated as GC contenders.

To be fair to Euskatel they had to really work to bring Mayo upto the chasing bunch as CA were on the front of this trying to bring the yellow jersey back to the peloton. Like you said though Euskatel are a weak team in this respect and if it was USP in the same position you would see them bridging the gap.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by DeRosa_AV
To be fair to Euskatel they had to really work to bring Mayo upto the chasing bunch as CA were on the front of this trying to bring the yellow jersey back to the peloton. Like you said though Euskatel are a weak team in this respect and if it was USP in the same position you would see them bridging the gap.

I agree Euskatel was trying to make it back (by the way, Zubeldia was lost his GC hopes -- did he deliberately drop back to pace Mayo back? I didn't focus on this aspect with respect to the US coverage, and didn't quite see properly). However, as you and I agree, despite efforts, their team was just weaker in this respect.

USPS' deliberateness is somewhat confirmed by a statement by D Demol (essentially, assistant to Bruyneel, although he is also a directeur sportif of USPS) attributed to be made BEFORE Stage 3, on LA's website (but released after the stage was completed, of course):

"Demol before the start of today’s key stage: 'We will see again today we will have a breakaway but the peloton will be nervous all day long…the last 10 kms before the first cobble section is very important because it starts with an open section and then you come into a small town then bends and after that you can’t move up anymore so it’s really important that the last 4-5 kms **before the start of the cobbles** we are up front. **We need to fight for position** and once on the cobbles, we have to try and go steady over them. **Afterwards, they have to look around and see how it is and if a climber like Roberto, Tyler or MAYO ARE IN TROUBLE, we have to keep going, even if we lose Jose or one of our climbers** [or, added by me, Noval, who is not a pure climber]. That would be a pity to lose one of our climbers, but it’s all about Lance."

So, any gains by USPS (and unintended benefits to JU and TH) were due to strategy and careful planning on the part of USPS.

This is rendered further likely (i.e., the deliberateness) by team members Eki and especially Hincapie. Hincapie, for example, has been in the lead group at Paris-Roubaix many times and is considered extremely capable over the cobbles. Bruyneel/Demol obviously know Eki and Hincapie's capabilities in this regard, and would have wanted to exploit their skills.

In a surprising showing, all the USPS members (except for Noval, who crashed around the time Mayo did) made the first group. This shows the USPS climbers are not that bad outside of the mountains, esp. Landis. But these climbers can TTT too, esp Azevedo and Landis. Beltran and Chechu showed last year they would not be burdens in the TTT. LA insisted that each climber had taken his turn in the rotation during the TTT in 03; sure, some were at the front of the team formation for a much shorter time than better TTTists on the team, obviously. But USPS has deliberately built a team that accommodates more strategic options, including by adding Azevedo and Noval.

😉

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by musette
I agree Euskatel was trying to make it back (by the way, Zubeldia was lost his GC hopes -- did he deliberately drop back to pace Mayo back? I didn't focus on this aspect with respect to the US coverage, and didn't quite see properly). However, as you and I agree, despite efforts, their team was just weaker in this respect.

USPS' deliberateness is somewhat confirmed by a statement by D Demol (essentially, assistant to Bruyneel, although he is also a directeur sportif of USPS) attributed to be made BEFORE Stage 3, on LA's website (but released after the stage was completed, of course):

"Demol before the start of today’s key stage: 'We will see again today we will have a breakaway but the peloton will be nervous all day long…the last 10 kms before the first cobble section is very important because it starts with an open section and then you come into a small town then bends and after that you can’t move up anymore so it’s really important that the last 4-5 kms **before the start of the cobbles** we are up front. **We need to fight for position** and once on the cobbles, we have to try and go steady over them. **Afterwards, they have to look around and see how it is and if a climber like Roberto, Tyler or MAYO ARE IN TROUBLE, we have to keep going, even if we lose Jose or one of our climbers** [or, added by me, Noval, who is not a pure climber]. That would be a pity to lose one of our climbers, but it’s all about Lance."

So, any gains by USPS (and unintended benefits to JU and TH) were due to strategy and careful planning on the part of USPS.

This is rendered further likely (i.e., the deliberateness) by team members Eki and especially Hincapie. Hincapie, for example, has been in the lead group at Paris-Roubaix many times and is considered extremely capable over the cobbles. Bruyneel/Demol obviously know Eki and Hincapie's capabilities in this regard, and would have wanted to exploit their skills.

In a surprising showing, all the USPS members (except for Noval, who crashed around the time Mayo did) made the first group. This shows the USPS climbers are not that bad outside of the mountains, esp. Landis. But these climbers can TTT too, esp Azevedo and Landis. Beltran and Chechu showed last year they would not be burdens in the TTT. LA insisted that each climber had taken his turn in the rotation during the TTT in 03; sure, some were at the front of the team formation for a much shorter time than better TTTists on the team, obviously. But USPS has deliberately built a team that accommodates more strategic options, including by adding Azevedo and Noval.

😉

It reminds me of the movie "Training Day" when Denzel's character makes the statement: "It's chess, not checkers."

Regardless of his loss of time, I think Mayo will still give Armstrong a headache in the mountains. Mayo has every reason to be one pain in the ass for Armstrong, since Armstrong did not wait.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Cam the Ram
Regardless of his loss of time, I think Mayo will still give Armstrong a headache in the mountains. Mayo has every reason to be one pain in the ass for Armstrong, since Armstrong did not wait.

That's kind of a funny way of putting it. What about all the other riders? Nobody waited for Mayo except for his own team. There were other riders who went down that day too, but their teams were strong enough to bring them back into the fold. If you're going to point any fingers, those are the ones that you would expect to wait since they were down already and might have used the help.

I don't think Mayo blames Armstrong. He didn't in the post stage interview in which he says that Armstrong was fair not to wait. There was no time to do so, and such action very likely would have resulted in a crash.

To think that Armstrong should have waited for Mayo means that you think that Armstrong should have conceded the Tour to the other people who would not have waited. There's no way he would do that. That peloton was moving very fast. It wasn't going to stop if Armstrong did.