Where's Lance?

I'm with you. I don't get it, either. I'm trying hard to follow this
thing, but, being completely dumb about how the TDF works, I'm totally
perplexed when I see everybody else winning, yet I hear the announcers
talking about how Lance is on his way to another sureshot victory. Maybe
that's why they don't bother to cover it much on network TV or basic cable.

Somebody help!!!!

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The announcers were just talking about Lance hanging in like 8th place to
stay out of trouble and stuff, and I don't see him in any of the stages,
except for the 2nd place in the Prologue. Yet they're talking about this

as

Quoted message said:

a winning strategy.

How can he do this. Uh, I'm pretty clueless about how they score and get
"points" and stuff, so if there's a FAQ for TdF dummies, a pointer

perhaps?

Quoted message said:

Do you have to win a certain number of stages, or do you just hang back

and

Quoted message said:

then get a time lead in the mountains or something?

Sorry for the possibly dumb questions on this... ;-)

-B

Lance will pretty much take it easy and just try to stay within an easy
reach of the leaders for the first few stages. When it comes to the really
brutal mountain stages and the time trials, that is where he will excel and
blow away the competition. Winning in the flatter stages is pretty
meaningless in the TDF. Usually some no names win the first few stages.
Also, winning a stage is a way for some of the "lesser" riders to gain
recognition. The big name guys usually don't try to showboat and win a lot
of stages. The winner of the TDF is usually the strongest time trialist who
is also one of the better climbers. It's also a function of who has the
strongest team. A strong team will protect a good rider and enable him to
stay rested for the key moments.

Watch for Lance to take the lead in either the first time trial or the first
severe climbing stage.

"NYRides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm with you. I don't get it, either. I'm trying hard to follow this
thing, but, being completely dumb about how the TDF works, I'm totally
perplexed when I see everybody else winning, yet I hear the announcers
talking about how Lance is on his way to another sureshot victory. Maybe
that's why they don't bother to cover it much on network TV or basic

cable.

Quoted message said:

Somebody help!!!!

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The announcers were just talking about Lance hanging in like 8th place

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stay out of trouble and stuff, and I don't see him in any of the stages,
except for the 2nd place in the Prologue. Yet they're talking about this

as

Quoted message said:

a winning strategy.

How can he do this. Uh, I'm pretty clueless about how they score and get
"points" and stuff, so if there's a FAQ for TdF dummies, a pointer

perhaps?

Quoted message said:

Do you have to win a certain number of stages, or do you just hang back

and

Quoted message said:

then get a time lead in the mountains or something?

Sorry for the possibly dumb questions on this... ;-)

-B

No such thing as a dumb question, Badger. Lance is trying to put time on his
primary rivals(Ullrich, Hamilton, Mayo). The first couple of stages are for
the sprinters--long, and fairly flat, with a bunch finish. Sprinters die in
the mountains and on time trials, which is where the Tour is won. The race
will start to get interesting on Wednesday, which is the Team Time Trial.
Watch for USPS to win, and win big. Armstrong will be in yellow before long,
but not today or tomorrow.

Badger_South said:

The announcers were just talking about Lance hanging in like
8th place to stay out of trouble and stuff, and I don't see him in
any of the stages, except for the 2nd place in the Prologue. Yet
they're talking about this as a winning strategy.

Quoted message said:

How can he do this.

Quoted message said:

Do you have to win a certain number of stages, or do you just
hang back and then get a time lead in the mountains or something?

The overall winner is the rider with the least agregate time at the end of
the three weeks of racing, less any time bonuses picked up along the way
(for example, for winning stages or intermediate sprints).

The overwhelming aerodynamic advantage of the peloton on flat stages means
that breakaways rarely succeed, and most of the riders (because they arrive
in a pack) receive the same time.

Mass finishes are contested by sprint specialists (like Robbie McEwen and
Mario Cipolini) who try to win glory for themselves and their sponsors and
cash for their teams by snatching stage wins. Those who expect to make it
across the Alps and Pyrenees also have an eye on the green jersey, awarded
to the rider who collects the most points from stage wins and intermediate
sprints. Sprints can be dangerous, and the risk of a crash means that no
overall contender will risk taking part. The ideal position is near the
front of the peloton (to reduce the risk of being trapped behind a major
crash) but not too near.

A few flat stages are won by lucky breakaway riders who time their escapes
well, or whose chance of an overall victory is deemed so slim that the
peloton doesn't deign to expend the energy required to chase them down. Any
attempt at a break by a major player would prompt an immediate response
from his rivals and their team mates, so again, the big names sit tight in
the peloton while the small fry are allowed a little glory.

The mountain stages and time trials are where big gains can be made. The
aerodynamic advantage of the peloton disappears, and large amounts of time
can be gained and lost. The climbing specialists and overall contenders
fight it out in the Alps and Pyrenees, while the sprinters either pack
their bags and head for the beach, or straggle home inside the daily time
limit to remain in contention for the green jersey in Paris. The
domestiques do everything they can to provide support for their team
leaders, while conserving as much energy as possible to allow them to do
the same day after day.

This year's first hilly stage is stage 10 in the Massif Central from
Limoges to St-Flour, with the first real mountain stage two days later.
With the new rules for losses in the team time trial, I wouldn't expect to
see any major gaps opening up before then.

Quoted message said:

Uh, I'm pretty clueless about how they score and get "points"
and stuff, so if there's a FAQ for TdF dummies, a pointer perhaps?

There's a FAQ from 1999 on the TdF site that should answer some of your
questions:

http://www.letour.fr/1999/us/faq2.html

and the BBC website is a pretty good introduction:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/special_events/cycling/newsid_3022000/3022950.stm

or

http://tinyurl.com/2gv7n

HTH

James Thomson

or:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=features/FAQ

--

This is true, but I believe they have changed the TTT. They can only lose
something like 2 minutes 30 seconds at the most. There is some sort of cap
I believe, which seems strange to me. I mean if a team is not going to be
in the running, they can just kick back and ride like a Sunday stroll
because they know they will only lose 2 1/2 minutes.

Curt

"Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

No such thing as a dumb question, Badger. Lance is trying to put time on

his

Quoted message said:

primary rivals(Ullrich, Hamilton, Mayo). The first couple of stages are

for

Quoted message said:

the sprinters--long, and fairly flat, with a bunch finish. Sprinters die

in

Quoted message said:

the mountains and on time trials, which is where the Tour is won. The race
will start to get interesting on Wednesday, which is the Team Time Trial.
Watch for USPS to win, and win big. Armstrong will be in yellow before

long,

Quoted message said:

but not today or tomorrow.

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is true, but I believe they have changed the TTT. They can only lose
something like 2 minutes 30 seconds at the most. There is some sort of

cap

Quoted message said:

I believe, which seems strange to me. I mean if a team is not going to be
in the running, they can just kick back and ride like a Sunday stroll
because they know they will only lose 2 1/2 minutes.

I think it's 3 minutes. It's bogus. It does give teams the possibility of
laying up, but Postal's in a good position because they should be starting
last.

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:02:54 +0200, "James Thomson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There's a FAQ from 1999 on the TdF site that should answer some of your
questions:

http://www.letour.fr/1999/us/faq2.html

and the BBC website is a pretty good introduction:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/special_events/cycling/newsid_3022000/3022950.stm

or

http://tinyurl.com/2gv7n

HTH

James Thomson

JT, Thanks a bunch. Makes sense. Appreciate your typing that out - I'm sure
a lot of other ng members found it interesting and greatly helpful.

Looks like both sites give a pretty good overview.

-B

"Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is true, but I believe they have changed the TTT. They can only

lose

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

something like 2 minutes 30 seconds at the most. There is some sort of

cap

Quoted message said:

I believe, which seems strange to me. I mean if a team is not going to

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the running, they can just kick back and ride like a Sunday stroll
because they know they will only lose 2 1/2 minutes.

I think it's 3 minutes. It's bogus. It does give teams the possibility of
laying up, but Postal's in a good position because they should be starting
last.

Yes, my mistake. It is 3 minutes.

The TdF is sort of hard to understand if you are not into cycling and now
they do this crazy new math deal for the TTT. I think it is a mistake, but
what can you do?

I will say this however...I do enjoy watching it and it will be getting
pretty interesting when the TTT starts and we get into the mountains. Hope
Lance can stay out of trouble and I am also hoping that Jan does very well
too. I am wanting to see those two battle it out like last year. It was
awesome.

Curt

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 03:02:54 +0200, "James Thomson" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There's a FAQ from 1999 on the TdF site that should answer some of your
questions:

http://www.letour.fr/1999/us/faq2.html

and the BBC website is a pretty good introduction:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/special_events/cycling/newsid_3022

000/3022950.stm

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

or

http://tinyurl.com/2gv7n

HTH

James Thomson

JT, Thanks a bunch. Makes sense. Appreciate your typing that out - I'm

sure

Quoted message said:

a lot of other ng members found it interesting and greatly helpful.

Looks like both sites give a pretty good overview.

-B

Maybe you've come across this fact elsewhere, but I haven't seen it covered
here. When a group of riders cross the line in a big bunch, it doesn't
matter who crosses first and who crosses 50th ... they're all awarded the
same time. On most stages, time bonuses are added for the top three
finishers. I can't recall exactly how much the bonuses are ... something
like 12 seconds for first, 6 for second and 3 for third.

On a stage like today's, the sprinters are vying for those 12 second bonuses
and killing themselves at the front. But Lance and his main rivals are
content to roll in 20 or 30 riders down the line because they'll get the
same time. The bonuses won't matter 'cuz the sprinters suffer badly in the
mountains. Lance and his main rivals will easily put several minutes into
the sprinters on each of the key mountain stages.

So, again, all the riders arriving together in a big bunch will get the same
time. If there's a gap between riders that can be measured, you'll see a
gap in the results. The reason for doing this is to keep the size of the
sprinting field smaller for safety. It's one thing to have a dozen top
sprinters vying for the win and the rest of the peloton just cruising across
the line in their wake. It would be another thing altogether if the entire
peloton were all sprinting like crazy for every second they could get. That
would be a crash-fest.

Bob C.

Sherry Katz said:

Lance will pretty much take it easy and just try to stay within an easy
reach of the leaders for the first few stages. When it comes to the really
brutal mountain stages and the time trials, that is where he will excel and
blow away the competition.

I'm with you so far.

Quoted message said:

Winning in the flatter stages is pretty
meaningless in the TDF. Usually some no names win the first few stages.

You mean like Robbie McEwen, Baden Cooke, Erik Zabel and Alessandro
Petacchi? Did you mean those no names?

Winning any stage means something. It's points. It's money. It's
prestige. It's bragging rights. Yes, the guys who win the flatter
regular road stages tend not to be the people on the podium in Paris.
That doesn't make their achievements meaningless.

Quoted message said:

Also, winning a stage is a way for some of the "lesser" riders to gain
recognition. The big name guys usually don't try to showboat and win a lot
of stages.

The big name sprinters do. See above. However, yes, some younger,
lesser known riders win some of these and yes, it does get them
some recognition. That translates to more demand for their
services in the future (and higher salaries). I think that means
something.

Quoted message said:

The winner of the TDF is usually the strongest time trialist who
is also one of the better climbers. It's also a function of who has the
strongest team. A strong team will protect a good rider and enable him to
stay rested for the key moments.

Generally true.

Quoted message said:

Watch for Lance to take the lead in either the first time trial or the first
severe climbing stage.

Maybe. We don't know his exact tactics. He does tend to attack in
the mountains though.

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>

I will say this however...I do enjoy watching it and it will be getting
pretty interesting when the TTT starts and we get into the mountains.

Hope

Quoted message said:

Lance can stay out of trouble and I am also hoping that Jan does very well
too. I am wanting to see those two battle it out like last year. It was
awesome.

The TTT should be great. I think Hamilton is going to be Lance's biggest
rival this year. Two Americans on the final podium is not impossible.
Ullrich is a threat but I don't think he can hang on in the mountains, and
he's not a great descender. Should be a heck of a Tour, for certain.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

The announcers were just talking about Lance hanging in like 8th place to
stay out of trouble and stuff, and I don't see him in any of the stages,
except for the 2nd place in the Prologue. Yet they're talking about this as
a winning strategy.

How can he do this. Uh, I'm pretty clueless about how they score and get
"points" and stuff, so if there's a FAQ for TdF dummies, a pointer perhaps?

Do you have to win a certain number of stages, or do you just hang back and
then get a time lead in the mountains or something?

Sorry for the possibly dumb questions on this... ;-)

There a couple of key things to remember: one is that it's total TIME,
not POINTS which matter. Two is that if you finish with the peloton
(pack), everybody in the pack gets the same time except the winner and
2nd place (and maybe 3rd), who get bonuses of (IIRC) 20 seconds and 12
seconds, respectively.

In a flat stage, the sprinters go for the stage win to get the time
bonuses, and everybody else just tries to stay with the pack so they get
the same time as everybody else. The real time separation comes in the
mountains (when there is usually no pack by the end) and the time
trials, when everybody gets the time they actually earn.

--
Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the
newsgroups if possible).

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

The announcers were just talking about Lance hanging in like 8th place

to

Quoted message said:

stay out of trouble and stuff, and I don't see him in any of the stages,
except for the 2nd place in the Prologue. Yet they're talking about this

as

Quoted message said:

a winning strategy.

How can he do this. Uh, I'm pretty clueless about how they score and get
"points" and stuff, so if there's a FAQ for TdF dummies, a pointer

perhaps?

Quoted message said:

Do you have to win a certain number of stages, or do you just hang back

and

Quoted message said:

then get a time lead in the mountains or something?

Sorry for the possibly dumb questions on this... ;-)

-B

The winner is the rider who completes the entire tour in the shortest
time. The fact that Armstrong Hamilton Ullrich et al are currently within
one minute of the leader means nothing until the going gets tough. Then the
above could easily get the deficit back plus several more minutes in one
day.

It's important to remember that the tour isn't 23 separate races but that
each days time is cumulative. There are of course special bonuses on each
day for sprints, and hill climbs and the daily first past the post but they
all in seconds and pale compared to the deadly mountain stages. This is why
many riders are in it for the special "jerseys" for sprints etc. They have
little chance of winning the general classification but excel in certain
elements.

"James Thomson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

A few flat stages are won by lucky breakaway riders who time their escapes
well, or whose chance of an overall victory is deemed so slim that the
peloton doesn't deign to expend the energy required to chase them down.

Any

Quoted message said:

attempt at a break by a major player would prompt an immediate response
from his rivals and their team mates, so again, the big names sit tight in
the peloton while the small fry are allowed a little glory.

The mountain stages and time trials are where big gains can be made. The
aerodynamic advantage of the peloton disappears, and large amounts of time
can be gained and lost. The climbing specialists and overall contenders
fight it out in the Alps and Pyrenees, while the sprinters either pack
their bags and head for the beach, or straggle home inside the daily time
limit to remain in contention for the green jersey in Paris.

I believe the rule is that the last rider must finish each day within 10
percent of that day's ride time of the leader, thus a 5 hr. finish time for
the stage win means that the Lantern Rouge (red lantern, or last rider on
the train, or however it's spelled in French) must finish no more then 30
minutes back.

Wasn't it in '02 (if memory serves) that a breakaway of "non-contenders" (so
to speak) got a huge lead, finishing so far ahead of the peloton that,
according to the rules, ALL of the trailing peloton finished outside the
time cut ?, and should have been eliminated from the rest of the Tour ?.
The peloton consisted of all of the big names of course and it would have
left the Tour with 12 riders or so. Couldn't have that of course,
especially in the first week.

Can't remember what part of the rule book they quoted to keep the race
alive....

Steve B.

"Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"curt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>>

I will say this however...I do enjoy watching it and it will be getting
pretty interesting when the TTT starts and we get into the mountains.

Hope

Quoted message said:

Lance can stay out of trouble and I am also hoping that Jan does very

well

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

too. I am wanting to see those two battle it out like last year. It

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

awesome.

The TTT should be great. I think Hamilton is going to be Lance's biggest
rival this year. Two Americans on the final podium is not impossible.
Ullrich is a threat but I don't think he can hang on in the mountains, and
he's not a great descender. Should be a heck of a Tour, for certain.

I feel Jan is the biggest competitor to Lance as Lance himself believes. I
really don't feel Tyler is strong enough to really be a contender...JMHO.
Regardless, it was fun to watch today and I feel it is really going to be a
great tour again.

Curt

curt said:

Quoted message said:

The TTT should be great. I think Hamilton is going to be Lance's biggest
rival this year. Two Americans on the final podium is not impossible.
Ullrich is a threat but I don't think he can hang on in the mountains, and
he's not a great descender. Should be a heck of a Tour, for certain.

I feel Jan is the biggest competitor to Lance as Lance himself believes. I
really don't feel Tyler is strong enough to really be a contender...JMHO.
Regardless, it was fun to watch today and I feel it is really going to be a
great tour again.

Curt

Most recently the oddsmakers are putting Lance as the favorite 1:1.6, with
Ulrich ~ 2.6:1, and Tyler at ~12:1, FWIW.

-B

Steve said:

I believe the rule is that the last rider must finish each day
within 10 percent of that day's ride time of the leader, thus
a 5 hr. finish time for the stage win means that the Lantern
Rouge (red lantern, or last rider on the train, or however it's
spelled in French) must finish no more then 30 minutes
back.

The Tour website says that:

Depending on the type of stage and the difficulties involved,
finishing deadlines are calculated based coefficients.

In practice, the organisers publish a table of time limits based on a
percentage of the time of the winner that varies with his average speed.
Different percentages are used based on the length and hilliness of the
stage.

Quoted message said:

Wasn't it in '02 (if memory serves) that a breakaway of "non-
contenders" (so to speak) got a huge lead, finishing so far
ahead of the peloton that, according to the rules, ALL of the
trailing peloton finished outside the time cut ?, and should
have been eliminated from the rest of the Tour ?. The peloton
consisted of all of the big names of course and it would have
left the Tour with 12 riders or so. Couldn't have that of course,
especially in the first week.

Colmar - Pontarlier (stage 8) in 2001.

http://www.letour.fr/2001/us/live.oft?service=RaceServer&RaceType=TDF&RaceYear=2001&StageNumber=800&Language=ANG

or

http://tinyurl.com/2k2jk

Quoted message said:

Can't remember what part of the rule book they quoted to keep
the race alive....

"All rules shall be applied at the discretion of the race committee"

James Thomson

James Thomson said:

In practice, the organisers publish a table of time limits based
on a percentage of the time of the winner that varies with his
average speed. Different percentages are used based on the
length and hilliness of the stage.

The coeffecients (and the clause on the committee's discretion) are
published here:

http://www.letour.fr/2004/docs/reglement_us.pdf

Article 22 - Permitted finishing times (page 12)

James Thomson