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When is a non summit a summit?

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
4 April 2004
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11 May 2004
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Roger
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  1. The answer to the question would appear to be when it is a
    Wainwright.

    I had another bad knee day on Saturday so opted for an easy
    stroll on Sunday morning - Flat Fell and Dent. 2 Outlying
    Fells and a Marilyn all in under 6 miles with only (a very
    conservative) 1300 feet of ascent.

    To get to the Point the marilyn summit of Dent (AKA Long
    Barrow) is at NY 041129 while the summit identifiable from
    AWs map in The Outlying Fells is at 038130. While
    significantly lower AWs summit does have the larger cairn
    and on the original survey could well have been the only
    spot height.

    Incidentally as I aproached AWs summit having already
    visited the Marilyn summit a man appeared over the rise,
    touched one hand to a low stone of the cairn and, without
    stopping for an instant, returned the way he had come. Was
    he an over eager peak bagger or a local out with his dog on
    a regular Sunday lunchtime excursion?

    --
    Roger Chapman so far this year 26 summits New - 15 (Marilyns
    4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11) Repeats - 11( Marilyns
    2,Wainwrights 11) Knackered knee - 3 times

  2. When it's only a Nuttall.

    Paul
    --
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  3. "Roger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The answer to the question would appear to be when it is a
    Wainwright.

    I had another bad knee day on Saturday so opted for an
    easy stroll on Sunday morning - Flat Fell and Dent. 2
    Outlying Fells and a Marilyn all in under 6 miles with
    only (a very conservative) 1300 feet of ascent.

    Knee can't be that bad then!

    Quoted message said:

    To get to the Point the marilyn summit of Dent (AKA Long
    Barrow) is at NY 041129 while the summit identifiable from
    AWs map in The Outlying Fells is at 038130. While
    significantly lower AWs summit does have the larger cairn
    and on the original survey could well have been the only
    spot height.

    The Lake District is clearly suffering from subsidence. AW
    couldn't possibly have gotten it wrong.

    Quoted message said:

    Incidentally as I aproached AWs summit having already
    visited the Marilyn summit a man appeared over the rise,
    touched one hand to a low stone of the cairn and, without
    stopping for an instant, returned the way he had come. Was
    he an over eager peak bagger or a local out with his dog
    on a regular Sunday lunchtime excursion?

    How much stuff was he carrying? Locals in the Lakes only
    carry a stick when they go out with their dogs.
    --
    Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
    Ce poulet a une grenade!

  4. The message <[email hidden]>
    from "Mark South" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I had another bad knee day on Saturday so opted for an
    easy stroll on Sunday morning - Flat Fell and Dent. 2
    Outlying Fells and a Marilyn all in under 6 miles with
    only (a very conservative) 1300 feet of ascent.

    Quoted message said:

    Knee can't be that bad then!

    Not as bad as it was a month ago which is why I risked a
    short stroll to take advantage of the much improved weather
    on Sunday morning. (It almost worked - only started raining
    5 minutes before I got back to my car. I am glad I didn't
    take much longer. Some of the rain I drove through on the
    way round the Southern edge of the Lakes was torrential.)

    But it hasn't taken much to irritate it again. 2 pimples on
    Friday afternoon, Grayrigg Forest and Swinside, about 3
    miles and 1300 feet of ascent in total. And the circuit of
    Newlands from Cat Bells to Hindscarth, 10 miles and 3000
    feet of ascent, on Saturday. Saturdays walk would have been
    a doddle as well if it hadn't been for the weather.
    Sometimes heavy rain in the morning and a wind so strong
    over Dale Head that I had great difficulty even keeping to
    my feet, let alone moving.

    Curiously my Summit logged 5900 feet of ascent on the
    3000 foot circuit. Perhaps it struggled with the wind as
    much as I did.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    To get to the Point the marilyn summit of Dent (AKA Long
    Barrow) is at NY 041129 while the summit identifiable
    from AWs map in The Outlying Fells is at 038130. While
    significantly lower AWs summit does have the larger
    cairn and on the original survey could well have been
    the only spot height.

    Quoted message said:

    The Lake District is clearly suffering from subsidence. AW
    couldn't possibly have gotten it wrong.

    AW probably got it wrong with several summits. ISTR a
    discussion here some time back about his dubious choice of
    top (was it Whinlatter that set the ball rolling?) but to be
    fair the OS was probably to blame in most cases.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Incidentally as I approached AWs summit having already
    visited the Marilyn summit a man appeared over the rise,
    touched one hand to a low stone of the cairn and,
    without stopping for an instant, returned the way he had
    come. Was he an over eager peak bagger or a local out
    with his dog on a regular Sunday lunchtime excursion?

    Quoted message said:

    How much stuff was he carrying? Locals in the Lakes only
    carry a stick when they go out with their dogs.

    Not even a stick and I didn't see any sign of a lead. He was
    however wearing a 2 colour walkers jacket and touching the
    summit cairn is an extreme baggers fetish that even I don't
    bother with. :-) And for all of his lightning turnaround he
    wasn't going very fast at all. No faster the me on the
    downward leg and I was being even more cautious than usual.

    --
    Roger Chapman so far this year 26 summits New - 15 (Marilyns
    4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11) Repeats - 11( Marilyns
    2,Wainwrights 11) Knackered knee - 3 times

  5. In article <[email hidden]>, Roger's
    <[email hidden]> sig:

    Quoted message said:

    New - 15 (Marilyns 4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11)

    Please enlighten - every summit I've been on has been
    a sweat 🙂
    --

    Russ Clare

  6. Russ Clare said:
    Quoted message said:

    New - 15 (Marilyns 4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11)

    Please enlighten - every summit I've been on has been a
    sweat 🙂

    SWEAT (Summit in Wales and England Above Two thousand feet)
    Definition - Summits over 610m with at least 30m ascent.

    Marilyn - Summit of any height with at least 150m ascent.

    Outlying Fells - Wainwright summit I think, no idea what
    definition.

    Nuttall - Summits (England & Wales) over 610m with at least
    50ft (15m) ascent.

    Dewey - Summits (England & Wales between 500m and 610m with
    at least 30m ascent.

    Note that the SWEATs have been revised into the HEWITTs
    (Hills in England, Wales and Ireland over Two Thousand
    feet). Aside from the addition of Ireland the HEWITTs list
    is more accurate than the SWEATs list. A number of errors in
    the original list have been corrected, for example Corn Du
    was included in the SWEATs in error but does not appear in
    the HEWITTs.

    The HEWITTs is the best and most accurate of the popular
    lists IMO, updated lists available here;
    bubl.ac.uktables

    The Nuttalls are too small and contain too many pimples, the
    Marilyns are too widely spaced and miss out many good
    summits. IMO of course.

    Paul
    --
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  7. The message <[email hidden]>
    from "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    Note that the SWEATs have been revised into the HEWITTs
    (Hills in England, Wales and Ireland over Two Thousand
    feet). Aside from the addition of Ireland the HEWITTs list
    is more accurate than the SWEATs list. A number of errors
    in the original list have been corrected, for example Corn
    Du was included in the SWEATs in error but does not appear
    in the HEWITTs.

    I have just had to revise the data in my sig as I have
    overlooked the fact that some of the Wainwright repeats were
    also Sweats.

    Quoted message said:

    The HEWITTs is the best and most accurate of the popular
    lists IMO, updated lists available here;
    bubl.ac.uktables

    I have updated my Marilyn and Sweat lists from time to time
    (but not recently). Swinside (Friday afternoon) was an
    addition to Alan Dawsons original marilyn list. I stick to
    the Sweat designation rather than the Hewitt as I have done
    nothing in Ireland and the prospect of even compleating the
    Furth 3000s is looking increasingly remote.

    --
    Roger Chapman so far this year 27 summits New - 16 (Marilyns
    4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11) Repeats - 11( Marilyns 2,
    Sweats 6, Wainwrights 11) Knackered knee - 3 times

  8. "Roger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The message <[email hidden]> from "Mark
    South" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I had another bad knee day on Saturday so opted for an
    easy stroll on Sunday morning - Flat Fell and Dent. 2
    Outlying Fells and a Marilyn


    all

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    in under 6 miles with only (a very conservative) 1300
    feet of ascent.

    Quoted message said:

    Knee can't be that bad then!

    Not as bad as it was a month ago which is why I risked a
    short stroll to take advantage of the much improved
    weather on Sunday morning.

    I still believe that some rest would do the knee good, but
    decent weather is so rare that it must be too tempting.

    Quoted message said:

    But it hasn't taken much to irritate it again. 2 pimples
    on Friday afternoon, Grayrigg Forest and Swinside, about 3
    miles and 1300 feet of ascent in total. And the circuit of
    Newlands from Cat Bells to Hindscarth, 10 miles and 3000
    feet of ascent, on Saturday. Saturdays walk would have
    been a doddle as well if it hadn't been for the weather.

    I don't know how badly knackered your 3 knees are, but I
    can't help wondering whether spreading the walking out a bit
    more might not be a good idea for you?

    Quoted message said:

    Sometimes heavy rain in the morning and a wind so strong
    over Dale Head that I had great difficulty even keeping to
    my feet, let alone moving. Curiously my Summit logged 5900
    feet of ascent on the 3000 foot circuit. Perhaps it
    struggled with the wind as much as I did.

    Strong wind can cause pressure variations that will fool
    even a really good altimeter. Cyclists have reported the
    same thing affecting their altimeters on days in the alps
    (the wind there being generated on the descent).

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    To get to the Point the marilyn summit of Dent (AKA
    Long Barrow) is at NY 041129 while the summit
    identifiable from AWs map in The Outlying Fells is at
    038130. While significantly lower AWs summit does have
    the larger cairn and on the original survey could well
    have been the only spot height.

    Quoted message said:

    The Lake District is clearly suffering from subsidence.
    AW couldn't possibly have gotten it wrong.

    AW probably got it wrong with several summits. ISTR a
    discussion here some time back about his dubious choice of
    top (was it Whinlatter that set the ball rolling?) but to
    be fair the OS was probably to blame in most cases.

    What I wrote was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. ISTR some
    discussion years ago whether he was right about Wansfell
    (IIRR he disagreed with the OS there). Does anyone recall
    the group verdict?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Incidentally as I approached AWs summit having already
    visited the Marilyn summit a man appeared over the
    rise, touched one hand to a low stone of the cairn
    and, without stopping for an instant, returned the way
    he had come. Was he an over eager peak bagger or a
    local out with his dog on a regular Sunday lunchtime
    excursion?

    Quoted message said:

    How much stuff was he carrying? Locals in the Lakes only
    carry a stick


    when

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    they go out with their dogs.

    Not even a stick and I didn't see any sign of a lead. He
    was however wearing a 2 colour walkers jacket and touching
    the summit cairn is an extreme baggers fetish that even I
    don't bother with. :-) And for all of his lightning
    turnaround he wasn't going very fast at all. No faster the
    me on the downward leg and I was being even more cautious
    than usual.

    I'm pretty sure that touching the summit cairn doesn't count
    anyway. You have to at least lick it.

    A local in disguise or a fan of ultralight summit bagging?
    --
    Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
    Ce poulet a une grenade!

  9. They are the same list, only the latter one has had the
    errors ironed out of it.

    Dont think that drop only lists are suitable for Wales
    anyway, but you knew that.

    Richard Webb

  10. The message <[email hidden]>
    from "Mark South" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    snip

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Not as bad as it was a month ago which is why I risked a
    short stroll to take advantage of the much improved
    weather on Sunday morning.

    Quoted message said:

    I still believe that some rest would do the knee good, but
    decent weather is so rare that it must be too tempting.

    It has been getting lay-offs of at least a month between
    trips as it is and if the really easy days such as last
    Friday and Sunday are discounted only single day punishment
    at a time.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    But it hasn't taken much to irritate it again. 2 pimples
    on Friday afternoon, Grayrigg Forest and Swinside, about
    3 miles and 1300 feet of ascent in total. And the
    circuit of Newlands from Cat Bells to Hindscarth, 10
    miles and 3000 feet of ascent, on Saturday. Saturdays
    walk would have been a doddle as well if it hadn't been
    for the weather.

    Quoted message said:

    I don't know how badly knackered your 3 knees are, but I
    can't help wondering whether spreading the walking out a
    bit more might not be a good idea for you?

    It is the left knee each time but that is because that leg
    does more work on account of a knackered ankle on the other
    limb. Last year I survived almost unscathed but this year I
    am back almost to square one (knackered knee and unfit), as
    I was after Expedition (No?) to South Wales where I was
    abandoned to my fate (:-)) when the rest of the party
    failed to follow the route plan and my knee decided it had
    had enough at the far extremity of a horseshoe walk over
    Waun Fach. The Bannisdale Horseshoe (my first walk this
    year) might be the hardest walk in the Outlying Fells but
    it wasn't anywhere near as tough as the Waun Fach
    horseshoe. What characterised both walks and, indeed many
    of the previous instances of knee non cooperation, was a
    stiff cold wind.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Sometimes heavy rain in the morning and a wind so strong
    over Dale Head that I had great difficulty even keeping
    to my feet, let alone moving. Curiously my Summit logged
    5900 feet of ascent on the 3000 foot circuit. Perhaps it
    struggled with the wind as much as I did.

    Quoted message said:

    Strong wind can cause pressure variations that will fool
    even a really good altimeter. Cyclists have reported the
    same thing affecting their altimeters on days in the alps
    (the wind there being generated on the descent).

    You don't like Garmin either?

    snip

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The Lake District is clearly suffering from
    subsidence. AW couldn't possibly have gotten it wrong.

    AW probably got it wrong with several summits. ISTR a
    discussion here some time back about his dubious choice
    of top (was it Whinlatter that set the ball rolling?)
    but to be fair the OS was probably to blame in most
    cases.

    Quoted message said:

    What I wrote was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. ISTR some
    discussion years ago whether he was right about Wansfell
    (IIRR he disagreed with the OS there). Does anyone recall
    the group verdict?

    I don't recall that discussion (but with a memory like mine
    that is only to be expected) but looking at the Great Mans
    original work he was disparaging those who thought Wansfell
    Pike was the summit of Wansfell. I have to admit I was among
    that number having counted Wansfell as my first Wainwright
    (and pre Wainwright at that) when it turned out to be close
    to my last. I am not sure AW go it right. Even now the OS
    has 'Wansfell' in type only marginally larger than the
    adjacent summit marking of 'Wansfell Pike' while at the
    higher end of the ridge the only attribution anywhere near
    the summit is 'Baystones' in even smaller type.

    On the latest 1:25000 map the name 'Idle Hill' on the slope
    to the North should have a better claim to the summit than
    the name 'Wansfell' which is almost exactly twice the
    distance away. However on the earlier edition 'Wansfell' is
    in larger type.

    snip

    --
    Roger Chapman so far this year 27 summits New - 16 (Marilyns
    4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11) Repeats - 11( Marilyns 2,
    Sweats 6, Wainwrights 11) Knackered knee - 3 times

  11. In message <[email hidden]>

    Roger said:

    The message <[email hidden]> from "Mark South"
    <[email hidden]> contains these words:

    Quoted message said:

    What I wrote was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. ISTR some
    discussion years ago whether he was right about Wansfell
    (IIRR he disagreed with the OS there). Does anyone
    recall the group verdict?

    I don't recall that discussion (but with a memory like
    mine that is only to be expected) but looking at the Great
    Mans original work he was disparaging those who thought
    Wansfell Pike was the summit of Wansfell. I have to admit
    I was among that number having counted Wansfell as my
    first Wainwright (and pre Wainwright at that) when it
    turned out to be close to my last. I am not sure AW go it
    right. Even now the OS has 'Wansfell' in type only
    marginally larger than the adjacent summit marking of
    'Wansfell Pike' while at the higher end of the ridge the
    only attribution anywhere near the summit is 'Baystones'
    in even smaller type.

    On the latest 1:25000 map the name 'Idle Hill' on the
    slope to the North should have a better claim to the
    summit than the name 'Wansfell' which is almost exactly
    twice the distance away. However on the earlier edition
    'Wansfell' is in larger type.

    With both a recentish map and The Far Eastern Fells at hand,
    it's clear that AW has marked the highest bit of land on
    that ridge south of the A592 as the summit, so from that
    point of view he's right. The argument would be about what
    constitues the whole fell called Wansfell. Wansfell most
    likely covers an area, where Wansfell Pike, and probably
    Baystones, are specific points. It looks (from the map, and
    AW's diagrams) like it's all part of the same fell, although
    I'll happily defer to superior knowledge (such as from
    someone who's actually been there).

    --
    Simon Challands, creator of The Acorn Elite Pages:
    elite.acornarcade.comelite.acornarcade.com Three Dimensional Encounters:
    3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk3dfrontier.fsnet.co.uk

  12. On 4/4/04 8:35 pm, in article [email hidden],

    Roger said:

    The answer to the question would appear to be when it is a
    Wainwright.

    Nah, it's just whenever you think you're approaching
    the top ...

    --
    Andy Howell Birmingham, UK

  13. In message <[email hidden]>, Paul
    Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:

    The HEWITTs is the best and most accurate of the popular
    lists IMO, updated lists available here;
    bubl.ac.uktables

    The Nuttalls are too small and contain too many pimples,
    the Marilyns are too widely spaced and miss out many good
    summits. IMO of course.

    But the HEWITTS stop at 2000' and when one has done all but
    the Irish contribution it is difficult to find somewhere new
    for a day walk on the hills - believe me.

    I am working on the Irish Hewitts - but one week a year
    means that I'll probably never complete. That's why I don't
    bother to list below. And, yes I know there are others I'm
    not going to complete too (I'll leave it to the reader to
    work out which!).

    By the way, Paul, I keep meaning to drop you an e-mail to
    ask if you care to join me for a day sometime on some of
    your more local Marilyns - either ones that you've never
    done before or ones you find particularly photogenic and
    would like to go back to.

    --
    Martin Richardson
    227/284 Munros - 20% to go 34/34 'Furths' & 439/439 Nuttalls
    - 0% to go
    228/89 Donalds - 64% to go 0/? Himalayans - 100% to go
    229/1552 Marilyns - 73% to go

  14. "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:c4q0jp$nrh$1
    @newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk:

    Quoted message said:

    When it's only a Nuttall.

    Reminds me of a discussion once on where Britain's second
    highest summit lies. The books will say Ben Macdui. However
    why isn't it a rock next to the highest rock on Ben Nevis?
    Or you could go down to mollecular level!

    OK, I'm being daft. But the point is that a summit must have
    an accepted drop on all sides for it to be a summit. We can
    all debate for ever how much that drop should be.

    --
    Adrian

  15. Martin Richardson said:

    But the HEWITTS stop at 2000' and when one has done all
    but the Irish contribution it is difficult to find
    somewhere new for a day walk on the hills - believe me.

    I'll take your word for it, but few of us consume hills as
    fast as you
    do. At least you've got the Deweys to keep you occupied.

    Quoted message said:

    By the way, Paul, I keep meaning to drop you an e-mail to
    ask if you care to join me for a day sometime on some of
    your more local Marilyns - either ones that you've never
    done before or ones you find particularly photogenic and
    would like to go back to.

    Certainly, by all means. Which ones did you have in mind?
    Mynydd Dinas? Foel Fynyddau? I haven't done those yet. I did
    Mynydd Allt y Grug again last week (double summit actually,
    the nearby bump Tarren y Gigfran is exactly the same height
    - does Dawson mention this fact?). Haven't been up Hirfynydd
    for a long time. Haven't done Mynydd Sylen either, that's a
    strongly GOML'd summit, apparently they fence off the ROWs
    and have frequent confrontations with walkers.

    Paul
    --
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  16. In message <[email hidden]>, Paul
    Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

    Quoted message said:
    Martin Richardson said:

    But the HEWITTS stop at 2000' and when one has done all
    but the Irish contribution it is difficult to find
    somewhere new for a day walk on the hills - believe me.

    I'll take your word for it, but few of us consume hills as
    fast as you
    do. At least you've got the Deweys to keep you occupied.


    Even they are getting to the point where petrol costs need
    to be considered before venturing out for the nearest
    unexplored ones to home.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    By the way, Paul, I keep meaning to drop you an e-mail to
    ask if you care to join me for a day sometime on some of
    your more local Marilyns - either ones that you've never
    done before or ones you find particularly photogenic and
    would like to go back to.

    Certainly, by all means. Which ones did you have in mind?
    Mynydd Dinas? Foel Fynyddau? I haven't done those yet. I
    did Mynydd Allt y Grug again last week (double summit
    actually, the nearby bump Tarren y Gigfran is exactly the
    same height - does Dawson mention this fact?). Haven't
    been up Hirfynydd for a long time. Haven't done Mynydd
    Sylen either, that's a strongly GOML'd summit, apparently
    they fence off the ROWs and have frequent confrontations
    with walkers.


    There are loads less than 2000' in Dawson's area 32 that I
    have not done
    - including all the ones you mention. However, I am always
    up for a bit of GOML baiting.

    I'll send you a list by e-mail - with some suggested dates.

    I would attempt to propose an expedition - however, I
    suspect the area would not be a popular attraction for most
    potential expeditionaries.

    --
    Martin Richardson
    227/284 Munros - 20% to go 34/34 'Furths' & 439/439 Nuttalls
    - 0% to go
    228/89 Donalds - 64% to go 0/? Himalayans - 100% to go
    229/1552 Marilyns - 73% to go

  17. Adrian Tupper said:

    Reminds me of a discussion once on where Britain's second
    highest summit lies. The books will say Ben Macdui.
    However why isn't it a rock next to the highest rock on
    Ben Nevis? Or you could go down to mollecular level!

    OK, I'm being daft. But the point is that a summit must
    have an accepted drop on all sides for it to be a summit.
    We can all debate for ever how much that drop should be.

    True, but there's also the question of distance. From my
    point of view I'm perhaps more interested in how much of the
    summit has a long steep drop. Even if there isn't much
    separation in height from the col, how much separation is
    there in height and in shape?

    Paul
    --
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  18. Martin Richardson said:

    There are loads less than 2000' in Dawson's area 32 that I
    have not done - including all the ones you mention.
    However, I am always up for a bit of GOML baiting.

    Bring a few friends, and some wire cutters. In the programme
    I saw when the local ramblers attempted an ascent the farmer
    defending the entry point was supported by a couple of large
    sons after the ramblers had ripped down the blockage he'd
    put up. I the local police were in attendance also to
    dissuade any violence breaking out.

    Or perhaps a more subtle approach might work better?
    Like actually sneaking up to the summit? It's very close
    to the road.

    Quoted message said:

    I'll send you a list by e-mail - with some suggested
    dates.

    Okay.

    Quoted message said:

    I would attempt to propose an expedition - however, I
    suspect the area would not be a popular attraction for
    most potential expeditionaries.

    Perhaps not, but you can propose it anyway. Who knows?

    Paul
    --
    wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.uk
    wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.uk
    photosig.comuserphotos

  19. "Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Adrian Tupper said:

    Reminds me of a discussion once on where Britain's
    second highest summit lies. The books will say Ben
    Macdui. However why isn't it a rock next to the highest
    rock on Ben Nevis? Or you could go down to mollecular
    level!

    OK, I'm being daft. But the point is that a summit must
    have an accepted drop on all sides for it to be a
    summit. We can all debate for ever how much that drop
    should be.

    True, but there's also the question of distance. From my
    point of view I'm perhaps more interested in how much of
    the summit has a long steep drop. Even if there isn't much
    separation in height from the col, how much separation is
    there in height and in shape?

    I'm warning you guys, if you go on applying logical analysis
    you will totally undermine the rationale behind peak-
    bagging! Damn your eyes!
    --
    Mark South Citizen of the World, Denizen of the Net <<Tiens!
    Ce poulet a une grenade!

  20. Adrian Tupper wrote: But the point is that a summit must
    have an accepted

    Quoted message said:

    drop on all sides for it to be a summit. We can all debate
    for ever how much that drop should be.

    Great idea!

    Bernie

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