Sandy said:Dans le message de news:[email hidden],
Gary Young <[email hidden]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
Quoted message said:I don't need a dictionary to know that accusing your opponents
I selected no one to be an opponent! I made a comment.
Quoted message said:of thinking that factory workers or Asians are subhuman is an ad
hominem attack.
You must be pretending that there are never, never comments in this
forum to the effect that something made in Asia is inferior. If that is
your true impression, I again question your reading.
In some cases, Asian products probably are inferior (American and
European tools, for instance, are generally thought to be better than
tools from Asian manufacturers outside of Japan and are able to command a
premium because of that). In the past, it was certainly the case that many
Asian products were inferior to those from American and European
competitors. Saying that does not entail any judgment about whether Asian
workers are subhuman. Levels of industrialization and training play a role
in such matters.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:I was the victim of one of your ad hominem attacks in the past and you
seem oblivious to not only their offensiveness, but, more importantly,
their logical invalidity.
Victim? I don't archive long-term, so the last thing I see I wrote to
you was about racial profiling in Connecticut. Law stuff, not bike
stuff. Were you a victim of it? Gads!
It wasn't the racial profiling response and I never said it was.
Quoted message said:I wrote :
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:You are suggesting the boss said, "Now don't use your brains guys - I
want to see shoddy workmanship here."
You answered :
Quoted message said:No, I suggested that bosses are concerned about keeping labor costs
down and that they may not give their workers time to use their
intelligence to the full. It seems like an absolutely unremarkable
proposition to me. Do you think McDonald's gives its workers time to
add that extra little touch to a hamburger?
Aside from the conditional statement, where is your evidence that
factories don't allow adequate time to complete tasks correctly ?
My evidence is here on rbt -- remarks by Jobst that factory wheels are
undertensioned and that the machines are not set up to do stress
relieving. Also, remarks by Peter Chisholm and other experienced wheel
builders that they often see factory wheels that require further work.
(You're not trying to suggest that Peter is subhuman, are you?) Finally,
reports, like that from the OP in this thread, of poorly built factory
wheels.
Aside from wheels, anyone who has worked in a factory or other
profit-making enterprise could tell you that the quality of the product is
often sacrificed in the interest of making a profit. Frankly, I think it's
such common knowledge that I see no reason to argue the point with you.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:I suppose you can provide real examples of this. You may want to
consult FSA, Volta, and other wheel sites which demonstrate exactly
how things are done, videos, text, anything you need, to learn.
I don't see anything like that on the FSA site. The Vuelta site shows a
700C wheel being built largely by machine:
You're right - I misspelled Vuelta. Someone, not long ago, provided a
link to a FSA site, which had a video of their process. If I dig it up
I will post it. But their print publicity very specifically details the
process.
Quoted message said:http://www.vueltausa.com/wheel-video1.htm
There's a person at the beginning who does the lacing. No one argues
that factory wheels are improperly laced.
I am completely, completely unaware that this is an accepted
presumption. Completely.
OK, you're completely unaware of it. So what? Does that mean you think
there are people here on rbt who say that factory wheels are improperly
laced? Is this supposed to be an argument or a comment on the state of
your ignorance?
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:There's also a person at
the end who appears to be fine-tuning the wheel's trueness and
roundness. There's no indication that he's bringing the spoke tension
up (in fact, there's a step earlier in the video where spoke glue is
applied, suggesting
that the wheels may be under-tensioned). Nor is there any indication
that the wheels are stress relieved. Those are two objections
frequently lodged against machine-built wheels which the video does not
dispel.
Your words here, "appears," "suggesting", are only argumentative.
I used the words "appears" and "suggesting" only because its possible that
Vuelta uses procedures that are not captured in the video. Another way of
saying the same thing is that the evidence you claim proves your point
doesn't in fact rule out all objections.
Quoted message said:Take
a factory tour. I did. There is nothing in the Vuelta video to
indicate improper procedures or inadequacies. My opinion, yes.
Quoted message said:
During your tour, did you see what tension the wheels were brought up to
or whether they were stress relieved?
