Wheels for a clydesdale

"Lowell Nelson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden 1200 miles, and the rear
wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road ride.

My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They kept the same spokes
but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from the owner of the shop, he laughed and said
that for my size (6'6" 265 pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it had gone
out of true bad.

Most wheels go out of true because they're insufficiently tensioned. Before throwing in the towel (&
the wheels), I'd stress relieve, tension, & true them. Most factory-built wheels come
under-tensioned, which is a problem, especially for big riders (I'm 6'10, 235).

Lowell Nelson said:

Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden 1200 miles, and the rear
wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road ride.

My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They kept the same spokes but
used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from the owner of the shop, he laughed and said that
for my size (6'6" 265 pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it had gone out
of true bad.

So now I'm looking around. He said that a bigger spoke (currently has 15g) and a better rim like an
open pro would fix it. He said the way mavic welded the open 4s caused them to be very weak at the
weld. On the ride after the rebuild it did go out of true at the weld, so that lends some credence.

I'm eternally on a budget, so I need suggestions. Are the paired spoke wheels and such any good for
a clydesdale like me, or do I need to stick with a 32 spoke (or even a 36 on the rear). The front
wheel of course has been perfect, just my weight on the rear... I am thinking about the Open
Pros/Ultegra 32 hole from JensonUSA for $195+ship.

Unless the rims are bent, the bike shop guy is jerking your chain. I used to ride Open 4 CD rims on
my TANDEM. Yeah, they were 36 spokes, but that's still a LOT more stress than even you can put on a
set of wheels. And no, they didn't go out of true every time I rode the bike.

The weld is certainly NOT moving, flexing or otherwise misbehaving. You'd know without a doubt if it
was. In fact, I think the Open 4's were pinned (which also works fine).

There's no reason those wheels can't be built reliably, even for a guy your size. Sure, if I were
starting with a clean sheet of paper, I'd recommend 36 14-15 butted spokes, but if the wheel (as
it's currently built) is tensioned and stress relieved properly, it won't go out of true (unless you
bend the rim).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of the $695 ti frame

Lowell Nelson said:

Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden 1200 miles, and the rear
wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road ride.

My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They kept the same spokes but
used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from the owner of the shop, he laughed and said that
for my size (6'6" 265 pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up.

Find a new shop. I was 250+ when I started road riding and promptly trashed improperly built
wheels. 32 spoke wheels, with double butted spokes and brass nipples, _properly tensioned_, will
last. I now build my rear wheels following Jobst's book with 36 spokes, but I have 32 spoke wheels
that work for me.

I can't believe the owner of the shop who rebuilt the wheel "laughed and said that for my size (6'6"
265 pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up".

A _good_ shop can set you up with wheels that will last.

Barry

In article said:

Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden 1200 miles, and the rear
wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road ride.

My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They kept the same spokes but
used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from the owner of the shop, he laughed and said that
for my size (6'6" 265 pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it had gone out
of true bad.

I think he's right although with a better rim you could probably get by with 32 spokes, I just
wouldn't recommend it.

Quoted message said:

So now I'm looking around. He said that a bigger spoke (currently has 15g) and a better rim like an
open pro would fix it. He said the way mavic welded the open 4s caused them to be very weak at the
weld. On the ride after the rebuild it did go out of true at the weld, so that lends some credence.

I don't know if his story is true but the Open Pro is a better rim than the Open 4CD in my
experience (but still perhaps not the best choice for you).

Quoted message said:

I'm eternally on a budget, so I need suggestions. Are the paired spoke wheels and such any good for
a clydesdale like me, or do I need to stick with a 32 spoke (or even a 36 on the rear). The front
wheel of course has been perfect, just my weight on the rear... I am thinking about the Open
Pros/Ultegra 32 hole from JensonUSA for $195+ship.

Anyway, thanks for any suggestions...

If you're on a budget, keep your front wheel and buy a stronger rear one. I think you're a candidate
for 36 spokes so I don't recommend trying to rebuild the rear or buy the wheels you mentioned from
JensonUSA.

I suggest you get a hand built wheel from someone who knows what they're doing. For one thing, they
can tell you the strongest wheel they can build for you, ask their opinion. But in general I would
say use 36 14/15ga butted spokes, brass nipples, pick a stout rim such as a CXP-33, Velocity Deep-V,
or even an Open Pro with 36 spokes would do OK if built well.

--Paul

"Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Lowell Nelson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden 1200 miles, and the
rear wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road ride.

My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They kept the same spokes
but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from the owner of the shop, he laughed and
said that for my size (6'6" 265 pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it
had gone out of true bad.

Most wheels go out of true because they're insufficiently tensioned. Before throwing in the towel
(& the wheels), I'd stress relieve, tension, & true them. Most factory-built wheels come
under-tensioned, which is a problem, especially for big riders (I'm 6'10, 235).

I am not quite as tall as you guys but I compete in Clydesdale for mountain biking. 5'11" 220lbs. I
do ride lots of road and I had the same concerns about my wheels. I would take Lowell's suggestions
first because I had loads of "pinging" when I put on my new wheel set this spring. I would also
consider the lacing pattern that is used. I have a radial on the left and cross 2 on the cog side.
With a 32 hole you could go cross 3 on both sides and you'll get good lateral strength. Just a
thought. One more quick note. To stress relieve any wheels I have built, I use a rubber mallet and
really give the spokes a good wack at the hub flange to make sure they "set" themselves and then use
the handle between the spokes and give them a good pry to help release any "pings" and twists.

Andy

On a normal road ride, assuming no great bumps etc., any good wheel should serve you well. I do not
know what your shop is doing wrong, but can tell you that when I weighed 280, I rode many miles on
36 spoke 14g wheels that were factory original (and nothing special) on my Mongoose . No Problems.
If I were you I would get a truing stand, learn to tension a wheel, and find another LBS. My .02.

Good luck Ernie

Lowell Nelson said:

Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden 1200 miles, and the rear
wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road ride.

My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They kept the same spokes
but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from the owner of the shop, he laughed and said
that for my size (6'6" 265 pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it had gone
out of true bad.

So now I'm looking around. He said that a bigger spoke (currently has 15g) and a better rim like
an open pro would fix it. He said the way mavic welded the open 4s caused them to be very weak at
the weld. On the ride after the rebuild it did go out of true at the weld, so that lends some
credence.

I'm eternally on a budget, so I need suggestions. Are the paired spoke wheels and such any good
for a clydesdale like me, or do I need to stick with a 32 spoke (or even a 36 on the rear). The
front wheel of course has been perfect, just my weight on the rear... I am thinking about the Open
Pros/Ultegra 32 hole from JensonUSA for $195+ship.

Anyway, thanks for any suggestions...

Brian

"Lowell Nelson" <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden 1200 miles, and the rear
wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road ride.

My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They kept the same spokes
but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from the owner of the shop, he laughed and said
that for my size (6'6" 265 pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it had gone
out of true bad.

So now I'm looking around. He said that a bigger spoke (currently has
15g) and a better rim like an open pro would fix it. He said the way mavic welded the open 4s
caused them to be very weak at the weld. On the ride after the rebuild it did go out of true
at the weld, so that lends some credence.

I'm eternally on a budget, so I need suggestions. Are the paired spoke wheels and such any good
for a clydesdale like me, or do I need to stick with a 32 spoke (or even a 36 on the rear). The
front wheel of course has been perfect, just my weight on the rear... I am thinking about the Open
Pros/Ultegra 32 hole from JensonUSA for $195+ship.

Anyway, thanks for any suggestions...

Brian

I would recommend using 36 hole rims with non butted spokes.

Sure its heavier, but it will last. Also, buy a truing stand and buy and read Jobst Brandt's book
"The Bicycle Wheel".

Then build the wheel yourself from the parts.

1) Its a good, productive way to spend a Saturday afternoon.
2) It will save you money in the long run (if not immediately).
3) You can ride in confidence knowing that that wheels were built properly.

The 36-hole rim will require a 4-cross pattern, not the 3-cross of a 32- hole rim. Aside from that,
building them is virtually the same.

Good luck,

- Boyd S.

In article <[email hidden]>, Boyd Speerschneider

Quoted message said:

The 36-hole rim will require a 4-cross pattern, not the 3-cross of a 32- hole rim. Aside from
that, building them is virtually the same.

ermm, I think maybe you mean the other way around? 36-holers lend themselves to 3-cross or 4-cross
lacings, because 36 is evenly divisible by 3 or 4, while 32 is only evenly divisible by 4 (or 2 or
8, but 2-cross wouldn't be workable in this case, and 8-cross is just too weird).

Sorry for being pedantic; I hate doing that. I get stuff mixed up, too -- I love math, but
arithmetic isn't exactly my best friend ;-)

Anyhow, I think you've made some good suggestions and raised some good points. If the Original
Poster is interested, a visit to

sheldonbrown.comwheelbuild.htmlOpen ↗

could be quite informative.

cheers, Tom
--
-- "What did I win, a Pinto?" -- Dr. Thorndyke/Mel Brooks: "High Anxiety" Above address is just a
spam midden.

Boyd Speerschneider said:

"Lowell Nelson" <[email hidden]> wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Currently riding Open 4 cd wheels 32 hole laced to 600 hubs. I've ridden 1200 miles, and the rear
wheel goes out of true on a 30 mile normal road ride.

My lbs convinced me to rebuild it last week saying that would fix it. They kept the same spokes
but used new nipples. Anyway, when I picked it up from the owner of the shop, he laughed and said
that for my size (6'6" 265 pounds), there's no way that wheel will hold up. First ride it had
gone out of true bad.

So now I'm looking around. He said that a bigger spoke (currently has
15g) and a better rim like an open pro would fix it. He said the way mavic welded the open 4s
caused them to be very weak at the weld. On the ride after the rebuild it did go out of true
at the weld, so that lends some credence.

I'm eternally on a budget, so I need suggestions. Are the paired spoke wheels and such any good
for a clydesdale like me, or do I need to stick with a 32 spoke (or even a 36 on the rear). The
front wheel of course has been perfect, just my weight on the rear... I am thinking about the
Open Pros/Ultegra 32 hole from JensonUSA for $195+ship.

Anyway, thanks for any suggestions...

Brian

I would recommend using 36 hole rims with non butted spokes.

Quoted message said:

Sure its heavier, but it will last.

An otherwise equivalent wheel with thinner, butted spokes will be more inclined to stay true. Bigger
is not always better.

Quoted message said:

Also, buy a truing stand and buy and read Jobst Brandt's book "The Bicycle Wheel".

Then build the wheel yourself from the parts.

1) Its a good, productive way to spend a Saturday afternoon.
2) It will save you money in the long run (if not immediately).
3) You can ride in confidence knowing that that wheels were built properly.

The 36-hole rim will require a 4-cross pattern, not the 3-cross of a 32- hole rim. Aside from that,
building them is virtually the same.

Why do you say that it requires it? The reason for crossing spokes is to get the spoke as close to
tangent to the hub as possible to maximize torsional stiffness. In a lot of cases, cross 3 works
better with 36 hole hubs and rims as you don't run into problems with the spokes interfering with
each other at the hub and spokes meeting the rim at a more awkward angle (especially with a large
flange hub).

--
Chris Bird

(Tom Keats) said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Boyd Speerschneider

Quoted message said:

The 36-hole rim will require a 4-cross pattern, not the 3-cross of a 32- hole rim. Aside from
that, building them is virtually the same.

ermm, I think maybe you mean the other way around? 36-holers lend themselves to 3-cross or 4-cross
lacings, because 36 is evenly divisible by 3 or 4, while 32 is only evenly divisible by 4 (or 2 or
8, but 2-cross wouldn't be workable in this case, and 8-cross is just too weird).

Are you saying the commonplace 32 hole wheel laced cross three is an impossibility?

--
Chris Bird

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris B.

[email protected] said:

(Tom Keats) said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Boyd Speerschneider

Quoted message said:

The 36-hole rim will require a 4-cross pattern, not the 3-cross of a 32- hole rim. Aside from
that, building them is virtually the same.

ermm, I think maybe you mean the other way around? 36-holers lend themselves to 3-cross or 4-cross
lacings, because 36 is evenly divisible by 3 or 4, while 32 is only evenly divisible by 4 (or 2 or
8, but 2-cross wouldn't be workable in this case, and 8-cross is just too weird).

Are you saying the commonplace 32 hole wheel laced cross three is an impossibility?

I thought it was. Why isn't it, without some holes left over?

But at least I'm sure that a 36-holer doesn't /require/ 4-cross lacing.

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
[point] bc [point] ca

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris B.

[email protected] said:

(Tom Keats) said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Boyd Speerschneider

Quoted message said:

The 36-hole rim will require a 4-cross pattern, not the 3-cross of a 32- hole rim. Aside from
that, building them is virtually the same.

ermm, I think maybe you mean the other way around? 36-holers lend themselves to 3-cross or 4-cross
lacings, because 36 is evenly divisible by 3 or 4, while 32 is only evenly divisible by 4 (or 2 or
8, but 2-cross wouldn't be workable in this case, and 8-cross is just too weird).

Are you saying the commonplace 32 hole wheel laced cross three is an impossibility?

Agghh!! Okay, you've got me drawing out on paper how to get a 3-cross lacing on one side of a wheel,
with 2 groups of 8 spokes. I'm not saying you're wrong; in fact I readily admit that *I* might very
well be. But I've just gotta be able to visualize this. You know how it is.

If I was good at this kind of stuff, I wouldn't have to draw pictures :-)

I'd really rather just ride the damn bike.

cheers, Tom

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[point] bc [point] ca

In article said:

Agghh!! Okay, you've got me drawing out on paper how to get a 3-cross lacing on one side of a
wheel, with 2 groups of 8 spokes.

Okay, it works. But in my rough sketches at least, it sure ain't pretty -- spokes crossing spokes
that have already crossed 3 other spokes. Maybe that's partly what killed off wide flanges?

cheers again, Tom

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[point] bc [point] ca

In article said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris B.

[email protected] said:

(Tom Keats) said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Boyd Speerschneider
<[email hidden]> writes:

> The 36-hole rim will require a 4-cross pattern, not the 3-cross of a 32- hole rim. Aside from
> that, building them is virtually the same.

ermm, I think maybe you mean the other way around? 36-holers lend themselves to 3-cross or
4-cross lacings, because 36 is evenly divisible by 3 or 4, while 32 is only evenly divisible by 4
(or 2 or 8, but 2-cross wouldn't be workable in this case, and 8-cross is just too weird).

Are you saying the commonplace 32 hole wheel laced cross three is an impossibility?

I thought it was. Why isn't it, without some holes left over?

It isn't. Because the number of holes on the rim and hub should be the same, you put one spoke in
each. It doesn't matter how many times they cross each other.

The thing that limits some crossing patterns is when the spoke angle at the hub flange is too acute
and the elbow lays over the head of an adjacent spoke.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Chris B.

[email protected] said:

(Tom Keats) said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Boyd Speerschneider
<[email hidden]> writes:

> The 36-hole rim will require a 4-cross pattern, not the 3-cross of a 32- hole rim. Aside from
> that, building them is virtually the same.

ermm, I think maybe you mean the other way around? 36-holers lend themselves to 3-cross or
4-cross lacings, because 36 is evenly divisible by 3 or 4, while 32 is only evenly divisible by
4 (or 2 or 8, but 2-cross wouldn't be workable in this case, and 8-cross is just too weird).

Are you saying the commonplace 32 hole wheel laced cross three is an impossibility?

I thought it was. Why isn't it, without some holes left over?

The number of crossovers has nothing to do with the number of spokes; it's mainly related to the
angle at which the spoke leaves the hub.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

I have had wheel problems over the years. Not as severe as yours. I vary in weight. Right now I am
at 200 lbs. If I get into good shape, I get down to about 190. And if I get out of shape I can hit
220 or more *gasp*. Odd thing is that even when I lose weight, I still stress wheels. I guess I go
faster and make up for the lost weight by velocity.

Well, I had reasonably good luck with 36 spoke MA40s but after about 10000 miles, they would come
apart on me. Well only the rear wheel.

I now ride Mavic T-519s with 36 straight guage spokes. I believe this is a mountain bike rim rolled
out to road size. At least that was the story. At anyrate, these things are pretty bullet proof. I
have a pair with over 30,000 miles on them. If all else fails, you could give these wheels a try.
They put them on tandems so they should easily do your weight.