wheels

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Tom Reingold
I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was 1978
through 1984. For a few years after that, I was still an
active cyclist, but I haven't been into it much lately.
<SNIP>
more spokes make a better wheel than fewer
spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly few spokes. Is
this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before, or
have there been advances in materials that allow the new
wheels to be as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels?
Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I
think they are for show. Some rear wheels are radially
spoked on the left side. Many front wheels are radially
spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt durability that much, but it
can't help.
Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed
wheels were coming in just as I was falling out of touch
with the industry, and even that seemed extreme. Now we have
ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs now? They were about 126
or 130 mm when I "left".
Tom Reingold Noo Joizy

There is a lot of marketing going on with:
low spoke count wheels, silly spoking patterns, spoke shapes/materials, hub attachments, rim shapes/attachments.
I agree with your conclusion about durability... and think of all the special replacement parts, tools, techniques, etc.
The concept of left rear radial spoking,, with all the heads out is directed at the rear dishing situation, but manufacturers of standard rear hubs do NOT warranty such applications.
Some rear rims are now available to help with the dish situation... they offset the spokes to the Non-Drive-Side.
Some 6/7 speed 135 mm OLD mountain bicycle hubs also helped with the dish situation. If you combine a 6/7 speed 135 mm OLD hub with a rim like th Velocity Synergy, you can arrive at a minimally dished wheel. Velocity also makes the Aerohead 700C (and 650C I think) with Offset Spoke Bed.
Most road hubs are still 130 mm and most mountain 135 mm.
The things you learned in "the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt still hold up.
"Conventional wheels built exceptionally well" is still a most worthy effort.
Well, you may have opened a "can of worms", but this is the forum.

Tom Reingold <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was
1978 through 1984. For a few years after that, I was still
an active cyclist, but I haven't been into it much lately.

My tenure in bike shops was '82 to '87.

Quoted message said:

I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building
wheels. I learned a lot from it. I also learned a lot
from reading his posts here. Hi, Jobst, if you are
reading. Back then, he pointed out that more spokes make
a better wheel than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have
shockingly few spokes. Is this because people tolerate
weaker wheels than before, or have there been advances in
materials that allow the new wheels to be as strong as
the old 36-spoke wheels?

Most people simply don't ride very much so durability isn't
much of an issue. When I raced in the mid '80's I did buy a
pair of Roval wheels. At the time they were about as high
tech as you could get but I saved them for racing only. The
rest of the time I rode good old 36 spoke wheels. Now I see
people riding expensive low spoke count wheels all the time.
I guess they have more money than time to train.

Quoted message said:

Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed
wheels were coming in just as I was falling out of touch
with the industry, and even that seemed extreme. Now we
have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs now? They were
about 126 or 130 mm when I "left".

The dishing problem is worse than ever. A few years ago I
built my first 9 speed wheel. There is a much greater
disparity in spoke tension than when I worked in shops and
narrow 7 speed was popular.

Quoted message said:

When I google my name, I see lots of messages I posted,
some about bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and
out of date. I wonder why people to bother archiving such
inconsequential stuff. Well, I suppose the simple answer
is that they do it simply because they can.

Yeah, I look back and say, "I can't believe I posted that!"
a lot. When I first started reading and posting stuff on the
newsgroups I was passing on a lot of incorrect "conventional
wisdom" I learned in my bike shop days. Live and learn eh?

Back when I was System Administrator at the University of
North Texas I cautioned students to be careful what they
posted because future employers could remember what you
posted and hold it against you. I had no idea that Dejanews
would save all of our posts for posterity though!

I remember reading your posts a dozen years ago.

Hasta,
--
Bruce Jackson - Sr. Systems Programmer - DMSP, a M/A/R/C Group company

In article <[email hidden]>, trn32-
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building wheels.
I learned a lot from it. I also learned a lot from reading
his posts here. Hi, Jobst, if you are reading. Back then,
he pointed out that more spokes make a better wheel than
fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly few spokes.
Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before,
or have there been advances in materials that allow the new
wheels to be as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels?

Wheel strength is directly related to the tension in the
spokes. If you go to a lower spoke count wheel, the spokes
need to have a higher tension for the wheel to have the same
strength. This also means that the rim has to be made strong
enough to support this higher spoke tension. Having to get
the tension so high also makes it difficult to build wheels
because the friction between the spoke threads and the
nipple threads increases and you get a lot of spoke wind up.
You need to temporarily unload some of the tension on the
spoke to make the adjustment.

Quoted message said:

Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I
think they are for show. Some rear wheels are radially
spoked on the left side. Many front wheels are radially
spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt durability that much, but it
can't help.

For show.

Quoted message said:

Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed
wheels were coming in just as I was falling out of touch
with the industry, and even that seemed extreme. Now we
have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs now? They were
about 126 or 130 mm when I "left".

8, 9, and 10 speed wheels are pretty much the same. They are
making the cassette cogs and spacers thinner to squeeze in
extra gears into the same space as before.

--------------
Alex

Tom Reingold said:

I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was
1978 through 1984. For a few years after that, I was still
an active cyclist, but I haven't been into it much lately.

I'm still happy with my bike, which I built back in about
1984. I'm not tempted to buy anything new, because while I
can see the improvements, to me, they don't justify the
costs. My bike is comfortable and reasonably efficient.

I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building
wheels. I learned a lot from it. I also learned a lot
from reading his posts here. Hi, Jobst, if you are
reading. Back then, he pointed out that more spokes make
a better wheel than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have
shockingly few spokes. Is this because people tolerate
weaker wheels than before, or have there been advances in
materials that allow the new wheels to be as strong as
the old 36-spoke wheels?

Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I
think they are for show. Some rear wheels are radially
spoked on the left side. Many front wheels are radially
spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt durability that much, but it
can't help.

Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed
wheels were coming in just as I was falling out of touch
with the industry, and even that seemed extreme. Now we
have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs now? They were
about 126 or 130 mm when I "left".

When I google my name, I see lots of messages I posted,
some about bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and
out of date. I wonder why people to bother archiving such
inconsequential stuff. Well, I suppose the simple answer
is that they do it simply because they can.

The low spoke counts are for aerodynamics - the rims are
deeper and the strength (and weight) is in the rim. This
isn't the most efficient way to do it, but for fast riding,
especially time trialling, there are benefits.

Radial spoking really isn't a problem if the hub is
designed for it.

Tom Reingold said:

I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was
1978 through 1984. For a few years after that, I was still
an active cyclist, but I haven't been into it much lately.

Man, that's ancient history!

Quoted message said:

I'm still happy with my bike, which I built back in about
1984. I'm not tempted to buy anything new, because while I
can see the improvements, to me, they don't justify the
costs. My bike is comfortable and reasonably efficient.

Well I get along fine with my 6-speed SunTour New Winner Pro
FW on my 1960's 120mm (rear) Campagnolo Record Hubs. They
still have the best QR ever made.

Quoted message said:

I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building wheels.
I learned a lot from it. I also learned a lot from reading
his posts here. Hi, Jobst, if you are reading.

Thanks.

Quoted message said:

Back then, he pointed out that more spokes make a better
wheel than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have
shockingly few spokes. Is this because people tolerate
weaker wheels than before, or have there been advances in
materials that allow the new wheels to be as strong as
the old 36-spoke wheels?

They all claim to have gotten better but they haven't. We
hear about many rim cracks, something uncommon in olden
times and they aren't riding wheels as long at that.

Quoted message said:

Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I
think they are for show. Some rear wheels are radially
spoked on the left side. Many front wheels are radially
spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt durability that much, but it
can't help.

There are claims, none of which are significant and many
are untrue.

Quoted message said:

Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed
wheels were coming in just as I was falling out of touch
with the industry, and even that seemed extreme. Now we
have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs now? They were
about 126 or 130 mm when I "left".

No, but asymmetric rear rims are made to respond to that
problem. The main thing is that rear flanges are closer
together. As the gear cluster infringes on the right flanges
location, the answer has been to move both flanges closer to
the center of the hub. This causes such laterally flexible
wheels that they dragged on brake pads while climbing
standing because the higher mechanical advantage dual pivot
brakes must operate with less pad clearance to reach the rim
before the hand lever bottoms.

Professional riders responded by opening the brake QR on
climbs and often descended with only a front brake. In
response, Campagnolo came out with a standard 1:1 ratio
sidepull caliper with wide clearance. I find these
contortions interesting, trying to appease the everyday
customer and the professionals who, by using this stuff,
sell it. There is still a thread of function in it because
professional racers demand equipment that does not interfere
with their racing success.

Quoted message said:

When I Google my name, I see lots of messages I posted,
some about bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and
out of date. I wonder why people bother to archive such
inconsequential stuff. Well, I suppose the simple answer
is that they do it simply because they can.

I wish they started earlier. I cannot find my ride reports
from 1961 to 1989 anywhere. If anyone has even one of them
or knows where to find one, please let me know. The guys I
rode with would love to have a copy.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

To respond to you all, if we didn't have boutique wheels,
and everybody ran 36-hole Ultegra hubs laced to Open Pros
with 14/15 DB DTs, then, honestly, reliability would be too
high, and a decent chunk out of repair income would be taken
out of our revenue.

Then again, everyone here is practical and non-flashy, so
36-U-OP-14/15-DB-DT is probably standard *personal* fare. I
guess I'm just saying don't bite the hand that feeds you...

I'd never guide anyone into a boutique wheel... just today a
250-lb rider came in with ALX330 wheel from a Specialized
Allez. He Dorito'ed it with about an inch or two of wave
throughout the whole wheel. I immediately suggested a 36-
spoke hand-built wheel for him.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

trn32-<< Yet modern wheels have shockingly few spokes. Is
this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before, or
have there been advances in materials that allow the new
wheels to be as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

No such thing as a free lunch. Low spoke count wheels, with
the corresponding heavy rim are all about marketing, not
performance, like ohh so much about bicycles these
days(threadless, oversized handlebars, compact frames,
integrated HS, etc).

The best, most reliable, long term wheel solution is the
proper choice of rims, spokes and builder, to ensure the
wheelset is proper for the rider and their needs.

trn-<< Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns.
I think they are for show >><BR><BR>

bing, bing, bing, we have a winner!!!

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Daveornee-<< "Conventional wheels built exceptionally well"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

yer welcome

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

phil-<< I'd never guide anyone into a boutique wheel... just
today a 250-lb rider came in with ALX330 wheel from a
Specialized Allez. He Dorito'ed it >><BR><BR>

Ditto-big gent with Zipp 303 on his Merckx. The guy that
sold these to him ought to be fired.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Bruce Jackson said:

Back when I was System Administrator at the University of
North Texas I cautioned students to be careful what they
posted because future employers could remember what you
posted and hold it against you. I had no idea that
Dejanews would save all of our posts for posterity though!

I remember reading your posts a dozen years ago.

Hey, Bruce! I remember you, too. And you're a
sysadmin, too! Wow!

As of Wednesday, I'm unemployed. My resume is at whatexit.orgresume funcOpen ↗
tlr.html. I live in NJ, near NYC.

Tom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I Google my name, I see lots of messages I posted,
some about bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and
out of date. I wonder why people bother to archive such
inconsequential stuff. Well, I suppose the simple answer
is that they do it simply because they can.

I wish they started earlier. I cannot find my ride reports
from 1961 to 1989 anywhere. If anyone has even one of them
or knows where to find one, please let me know. The guys I
rode with would love to have a copy.

There was no net in 1961. Did you post your rides of those
years in later years?

I might be able to help search for your old articles if you
gave me their titles or other keywords to search for. I'm
sure using your name alone as a search keyword would produce
a lot of hay piled onto the needles you wish to find. That's
not a commentary on your writings; it just means that you
have been prolific.

Tom

Tom Reingold said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I Google my name, I see lots of messages I posted,
some about bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old
and out of date. I wonder why people bother to archive
such inconsequential stuff. Well, I suppose the simple
answer is that they do it simply because they can.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wish they started earlier. I cannot find my ride
reports from 1961 to 1989 anywhere. If anyone has even
one of them or knows where to find one, please let me
know. The guys I rode with would love to have a copy.

As you see, I posted earlier results when rec.bicycle became
available. That is why you can read my 1959 and 1960
reports. I posted others later and all the rides thereafter
but did not save a copy where I could retrieve them. They my
be on 1/2" reel-to-reel tapes that are in a file cabinet at
HP where I left them years ago.

Quoted message said:

There was no net in 1961. Did you post your rides of those
years in later years?

Quoted message said:

I might be able to help search for your old articles if
you gave me their titles or other keywords to search for.
I'm sure using your name alone as a search keyword would
produce a lot of hay piled onto the needles you wish to
find. That's not a commentary on your writings; it just
means that you have been prolific.

I think they all look alike (like 1990-2003). In any case
the author is listed as [email hidden] and @hpl.com or
@hp.hpl.com "Tour of the Alps 1980" etc.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

trn32-<< Yet modern wheels have shockingly few spokes. Is
this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before, or
have there been advances in materials that allow the new
wheels to be as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

No such thing as a free lunch. Low spoke count wheels,
with the corresponding heavy rim are all about marketing,
not performance, like ohh so much about bicycles these
days(threadless, oversized handlebars, compact frames,
integrated HS, etc).

The best, most reliable, long term wheel solution is the
proper choice of rims, spokes and builder, to ensure the
wheelset is proper for the rider and their needs.

trn-<< Another thing I notice is the silly spoking
patterns. I think they are for show >><BR><BR>

bing, bing, bing, we have a winner!!!

Well, I wasn't just guessing. I just wondered if my
experience has been made moot by technological advances, and
now all you folks have confirmed that it has NOT.

My proudest wheel building experience was when I was a young
bike mechanic, and a tandem riding guy asked me to build a
wheel for him. He said he had nothing but bad experiences
with his rear wheels. He was not at all mechanically
inclined, and he relied entirely on professionals. This was
in about 1982. Remember Weinmann concave rims? I chose that,
as it was heavy and strong, relative to everything else
available. He had an Atom hub with a built in drum brake.
The flanges were huge. It had 48 spokes. I had never built a
48-spoke wheel before. The spaces between the spoke nipples
was very inconvenient. The wheel took me many hours and lots
of trial and error. In fact, it took so much time that my
employer lost money on it.

The customer took the wheel on a several-week tour. He came
back just to tell me that rather than the normal failures,
it was as straight as the day he picked it up. I was not
only proud, I was surprised.

Tom

Quoted message said:

I think they all look alike (like 1990-2003). In any case
the author is listed as [email hidden] and @hpl.com or
@hp.hpl.com "Tour of the Alps 1980" etc.

Have you tried groups.google.comgroups.google.comOpen ↗ ?

Tom

"Tom Reingold" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think they all look alike (like 1990-2003). In any
case the author is listed as [email hidden] and @hpl.com
or @hp.hpl.com "Tour of the Alps 1980" etc.

Have you tried groups.google.comgroups.google.comOpen ↗ ?

No, for some reason even though Jobst has been on the
rec.bicycles hieararchy since the dawn of time he's never
heard of Google, in fact, he's never heard of the World Wide
Web, he's Usenet only.

Greg

G. T. said:

Tom Reingold said:

Quoted message said:

I think they all look alike (like 1990-2003). In any
case the author is listed as [email hidden] and @hpl.com
or @hp.hpl.com "Tour of the Alps 1980" etc.

Have you tried groups.google.comgroups.google.comOpen ↗ ?

No, for some reason even though Jobst has been on the
rec.bicycles hieararchy since the dawn of time he's never
heard of Google, in fact, he's never heard of the World
Wide Web, he's Usenet only.

From
groups.google.comhelp.htmlOpen ↗

,----
| How far back does Google's archive go?
|
| Google has fully integrated the past 20 years of Usenet
| archives into Google Groups, which now offers access to
| more than 845 million messages dating back to 1981. We
| believe this to be the most complete collection of Usenet
| articles ever assembled and a fascinating first-hand
| historical account.
`----

... thus the problem of locating ride reports dating before
this time.

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in
cases of oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way
obstructed interstate commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover

I have engaged the Google search service to find links to my older
ride reports:

answers.google.comthreadviewOpen ↗

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Tom Reingold
..
I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building wheels. I
learned a lot from it. I also learned a lot from reading his
posts here. Hi, Jobst, if you are reading. Back then, he
pointed out that more spokes make a better wheel than fewer
spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly few spokes. Is
this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before, or
have there been advances in materials that allow the new
wheels to be as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels?

Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I
think they are for show. Some rear wheels are radially
spoked on the left side. Many front wheels are radially
spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt durability that much, but it
can't help.


...

Tom Reingold Noo Joizy

Tom, along with the lower spoke counts, deeper rim sections are also a trend. Low counts REQUIRE a deeper rim section to distribute the load to the adjacent spokes. Break a spoke on these minimal count wheels and there will be problems. Larger problems than an old 36 count rim. Yes, spoke materials have improved GREATLY especially with regards to the raw alloys (primarily 18/8 stainless or 300 series) but also with respect to the wire drawing, swaging and heading. Spoke failure with quality spokes is rare but I have had one. I traced it to a longitudinal nick in the raw wire.

"Silly spoking patterns" might include paired spoking? If so, I agree. But radial lacing the DRIVE side works to reduce dish AND make a more durable wheel if and only if the rear hub body is of sufficient diameter and shell thickness. In the old days, the rear hub shell was thin and small in diameter. Its torsional stiffness was nil and most all torque (90-98%)was transmitted to the drive side spokes. With radial non-drive side, even less is carried because the left hub must "wind up" before any torque can be transmitted.

Radial drive side lacing hubs require a hub body of at least 25mm OD and 2mm thickness. Using heads in radial lacing drive side, 2 cross non-drive, my drive side is tensioned to 115 kgf and my non-drive is 110 kgf. This is using a symmetric rim and a hub with a left offset of 31mm, right offset of 17mm. After 8000+ miles, no truing has been required but then again, I'm a bit of a flyweight at 155 pounds.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have engaged the Google search service to find links to
my older ride reports:

answers.google.comthreadviewOpen ↗

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

I'm not sure if this is the correct link: www-www-Open ↗
math.science.unitn.it/Bike/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/To-
ur_of_the_Alps/ -tom