wheels

Tom Reingold said:

I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was 1978 through
1984. For a few years after that, I was still an active cyclist, but I
haven't been into it much lately. <SNIP> more spokes make a better wheel
than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly few spokes. Is this
because people tolerate weaker wheels than before, or have there been
advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be as strong as the
old 36-spoke wheels? Another thing I notice is the silly spoking
patterns. I think they are for show. Some rear wheels are radially
spoked on the left side. Many front wheels are radially spoked. Maybe it
doesn't hurt durability that much, but it can't help. Also, has the
dishing problem been solved? Seven speed wheels were coming in just as I
was falling out of touch with the industry, and even that seemed
extreme. Now we have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs now? They were
about 126 or 130 mm when I "left". Tom Reingold Noo Joizy

There is a lot of marketing going on with: low spoke count wheels,
silly spoking patterns, spoke shapes/materials, hub attachments, rim
shapes/attachments. I agree with your conclusion about durability...
and think of all the special replacement parts, tools, techniques, etc.
The concept of left rear radial spoking,, with all the heads out is
directed at the rear dishing situation, but manufacturers of standard
rear hubs do NOT warranty such applications. Some rear rims are now
available to help with the dish situation... they offset the spokes to
the Non-Drive-Side. Some 6/7 speed 135 mm OLD mountain bicycle hubs
also helped with the dish situation. If you combine a 6/7 speed 135 mm
OLD hub with a rim like th Velocity Synergy, you can arrive at a
minimally dished wheel. Velocity also makes the Aerohead 700C (and 650C
I think) with Offset Spoke Bed. Most road hubs are still 130 mm and
most mountain 135 mm. The things you learned in "the Bicycle Wheel" by
Jobst Brandt still hold up. "Conventional wheels built exceptionally
well" is still a most worthy effort. Well, you may have opened a "can
of worms", but this is the forum.

--

Tom Reingold <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was 1978 through
1984. For a few years after that, I was still an active cyclist, but I
haven't been into it much lately.

My tenure in bike shops was '82 to '87.

Quoted message said:

I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building wheels. I learned a
lot from it. I also learned a lot from reading his posts here. Hi,
Jobst, if you are reading. Back then, he pointed out that more spokes
make a better wheel than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly
few spokes. Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before,
or have there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be
as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels?

Most people simply don't ride very much so durability isn't much
of an issue. When I raced in the mid '80's I did buy a pair of
Roval wheels. At the time they were about as high tech as you could
get but I saved them for racing only. The rest of the time I rode
good old 36 spoke wheels. Now I see people riding expensive low
spoke count wheels all the time. I guess they have more money than
time to train.

Quoted message said:

Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed wheels were
coming in just as I was falling out of touch with the industry, and even
that seemed extreme. Now we have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs
now? They were about 126 or 130 mm when I "left".

The dishing problem is worse than ever. A few years ago I built my
first 9 speed wheel. There is a much greater disparity in spoke
tension than when I worked in shops and narrow 7 speed was popular.

Quoted message said:

When I google my name, I see lots of messages I posted, some about
bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and out of date. I wonder why
people to bother archiving such inconsequential stuff. Well, I suppose
the simple answer is that they do it simply because they can.

Yeah, I look back and say, "I can't believe I posted that!" a lot.
When I first started reading and posting stuff on the newsgroups
I was passing on a lot of incorrect "conventional wisdom" I
learned in my bike shop days. Live and learn eh?

Back when I was System Administrator at the University of North
Texas I cautioned students to be careful what they posted because
future employers could remember what you posted and hold it against
you. I had no idea that Dejanews would save all of our posts for
posterity though!

I remember reading your posts a dozen years ago.

Hasta,
--
Bruce Jackson - Sr. Systems Programmer - DMSP, a M/A/R/C Group company

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building wheels. I learned a
lot from it. I also learned a lot from reading his posts here. Hi,
Jobst, if you are reading. Back then, he pointed out that more spokes
make a better wheel than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly
few spokes. Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before,
or have there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be
as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels?

Wheel strength is directly related to the tension in the spokes. If you
go to a lower spoke count wheel, the spokes need to have a higher tension
for the wheel to have the same strength. This also means that the rim
has to be made strong enough to support this higher spoke tension. Having
to get the tension so high also makes it difficult to build wheels because
the friction between the spoke threads and the nipple threads increases and
you get a lot of spoke wind up. You need to temporarily unload some of the
tension on the spoke to make the adjustment.

Quoted message said:

Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I think they are
for show. Some rear wheels are radially spoked on the left side. Many
front wheels are radially spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt durability that
much, but it can't help.

For show.

Quoted message said:

Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed wheels were
coming in just as I was falling out of touch with the industry, and even
that seemed extreme. Now we have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs
now? They were about 126 or 130 mm when I "left".

8, 9, and 10 speed wheels are pretty much the same. They are making the
cassette cogs and spacers thinner to squeeze in extra gears into the same
space as before.

--------------
Alex

Tom Reingold said:

I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was 1978 through
1984. For a few years after that, I was still an active cyclist, but I
haven't been into it much lately.

I'm still happy with my bike, which I built back in about 1984. I'm not
tempted to buy anything new, because while I can see the improvements,
to me, they don't justify the costs. My bike is comfortable and
reasonably efficient.

I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building wheels. I learned a
lot from it. I also learned a lot from reading his posts here. Hi,
Jobst, if you are reading. Back then, he pointed out that more spokes
make a better wheel than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly
few spokes. Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before,
or have there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be
as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels?

Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I think they are
for show. Some rear wheels are radially spoked on the left side. Many
front wheels are radially spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt durability that
much, but it can't help.

Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed wheels were
coming in just as I was falling out of touch with the industry, and even
that seemed extreme. Now we have ten speed wheels. How wide are hubs
now? They were about 126 or 130 mm when I "left".

When I google my name, I see lots of messages I posted, some about
bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and out of date. I wonder why
people to bother archiving such inconsequential stuff. Well, I suppose
the simple answer is that they do it simply because they can.

The low spoke counts are for aerodynamics - the rims are deeper and the
strength (and weight) is in the rim. This isn't the most efficient way
to do it, but for fast riding, especially time trialling, there are
benefits.

Radial spoking really isn't a problem if the hub is designed for it.

Tom Reingold said:

I was a bike mechanic many years ago. Let's see. It was 1978 through
1984. For a few years after that, I was still an active cyclist, but
I haven't been into it much lately.

Man, that's ancient history!

Quoted message said:

I'm still happy with my bike, which I built back in about 1984. I'm
not tempted to buy anything new, because while I can see the
improvements, to me, they don't justify the costs. My bike is
comfortable and reasonably efficient.

Well I get along fine with my 6-speed SunTour New Winner Pro FW on my
1960's 120mm (rear) Campagnolo Record Hubs. They still have the best
QR ever made.

Quoted message said:

I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building wheels. I
learned a lot from it. I also learned a lot from reading his posts
here. Hi, Jobst, if you are reading.

Thanks.

Quoted message said:

Back then, he pointed out that more spokes make a better wheel than
fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly few spokes. Is
this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before, or have
there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be as
strong as the old 36-spoke wheels?

They all claim to have gotten better but they haven't. We hear about
many rim cracks, something uncommon in olden times and they aren't
riding wheels as long at that.

Quoted message said:

Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I think they
are for show. Some rear wheels are radially spoked on the left
side. Many front wheels are radially spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt
durability that much, but it can't help.

There are claims, none of which are significant and many are untrue.

Quoted message said:

Also, has the dishing problem been solved? Seven speed wheels were
coming in just as I was falling out of touch with the industry, and
even that seemed extreme. Now we have ten speed wheels. How wide
are hubs now? They were about 126 or 130 mm when I "left".

No, but asymmetric rear rims are made to respond to that problem. The
main thing is that rear flanges are closer together. As the gear
cluster infringes on the right flanges location, the answer has been
to move both flanges closer to the center of the hub. This causes
such laterally flexible wheels that they dragged on brake pads while
climbing standing because the higher mechanical advantage dual pivot
brakes must operate with less pad clearance to reach the rim before
the hand lever bottoms.

Professional riders responded by opening the brake QR on climbs and
often descended with only a front brake. In response, Campagnolo came
out with a standard 1:1 ratio sidepull caliper with wide clearance. I
find these contortions interesting, trying to appease the everyday
customer and the professionals who, by using this stuff, sell it.
There is still a thread of function in it because professional racers
demand equipment that does not interfere with their racing success.

Quoted message said:

When I Google my name, I see lots of messages I posted, some about
bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and out of date. I
wonder why people bother to archive such inconsequential stuff.
Well, I suppose the simple answer is that they do it simply because
they can.

I wish they started earlier. I cannot find my ride reports from 1961
to 1989 anywhere. If anyone has even one of them or knows where to
find one, please let me know. The guys I rode with would love to have
a copy.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

To respond to you all, if we didn't have boutique wheels, and everybody ran
36-hole Ultegra hubs laced to Open Pros with 14/15 DB DTs, then, honestly,
reliability would be too high, and a decent chunk out of repair income would
be taken out of our revenue.

Then again, everyone here is practical and non-flashy, so
36-U-OP-14/15-DB-DT is probably standard *personal* fare. I guess I'm just
saying don't bite the hand that feeds you...

I'd never guide anyone into a boutique wheel... just today a 250-lb rider
came in with ALX330 wheel from a Specialized Allez. He Dorito'ed it with
about an inch or two of wave throughout the whole wheel. I immediately
suggested a 36-spoke hand-built wheel for him.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

trn32-<< Yet modern wheels have shockingly
few spokes. Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before,
or have there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be
as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels? >><BR><BR>

No such thing as a free lunch. Low spoke count wheels, with the corresponding
heavy rim are all about marketing, not performance, like ohh so much about
bicycles these days(threadless, oversized handlebars, compact frames,
integrated HS, etc).

The best, most reliable, long term wheel solution is the proper choice of rims,
spokes and builder, to ensure the wheelset is proper for the rider and their
needs.

trn-<< Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I think they are
for show >><BR><BR>

bing, bing, bing, we have a winner!!!

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Daveornee-<< "Conventional wheels built exceptionally
well" >><BR><BR>

yer welcome

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

phil-<< I'd never guide anyone into a boutique wheel... just today a 250-lb
rider
came in with ALX330 wheel from a Specialized Allez. He Dorito'ed it >><BR><BR>

Ditto-big gent with Zipp 303 on his Merckx. The guy that sold these to him
ought to be fired.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Bruce Jackson said:

Back when I was System Administrator at the University of North
Texas I cautioned students to be careful what they posted because
future employers could remember what you posted and hold it against
you. I had no idea that Dejanews would save all of our posts for
posterity though!

I remember reading your posts a dozen years ago.

Hey, Bruce! I remember you, too. And you're a sysadmin, too! Wow!

As of Wednesday, I'm unemployed. My resume is at
http://whatexit.org/~tommy/resume-func-tlr.html. I live in NJ, near NYC.

Tom

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I Google my name, I see lots of messages I posted, some about
bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and out of date. I
wonder why people bother to archive such inconsequential stuff.
Well, I suppose the simple answer is that they do it simply because
they can.

I wish they started earlier. I cannot find my ride reports from 1961
to 1989 anywhere. If anyone has even one of them or knows where to
find one, please let me know. The guys I rode with would love to have
a copy.

There was no net in 1961. Did you post your rides of those years in
later years?

I might be able to help search for your old articles if you gave me
their titles or other keywords to search for. I'm sure using your name
alone as a search keyword would produce a lot of hay piled onto the
needles you wish to find. That's not a commentary on your writings; it
just means that you have been prolific.

Tom

Tom Reingold said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I Google my name, I see lots of messages I posted, some about
bicycle repair. A lot of that stuff is old and out of date. I
wonder why people bother to archive such inconsequential stuff.
Well, I suppose the simple answer is that they do it simply
because they can.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wish they started earlier. I cannot find my ride reports from
1961 to 1989 anywhere. If anyone has even one of them or knows
where to find one, please let me know. The guys I rode with would
love to have a copy.

As you see, I posted earlier results when rec.bicycle became
available. That is why you can read my 1959 and 1960 reports. I
posted others later and all the rides thereafter but did not save a
copy where I could retrieve them. They my be on 1/2" reel-to-reel
tapes that are in a file cabinet at HP where I left them years ago.

Quoted message said:

There was no net in 1961. Did you post your rides of those years in
later years?

Quoted message said:

I might be able to help search for your old articles if you gave me
their titles or other keywords to search for. I'm sure using your name
alone as a search keyword would produce a lot of hay piled onto the
needles you wish to find. That's not a commentary on your writings; it
just means that you have been prolific.

I think they all look alike (like 1990-2003). In any case the author
is listed as [email hidden] and @hpl.com or @hp.hpl.com
"Tour of the Alps 1980" etc.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I think they all look alike (like 1990-2003). In any case the author
is listed as [email hidden] and @hpl.com or @hp.hpl.com
"Tour of the Alps 1980" etc.

Have you tried http://groups.google.com ?

Tom

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

trn32-<< Yet modern wheels have shockingly
few spokes. Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before,
or have there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be
as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels? >><BR><BR>

No such thing as a free lunch. Low spoke count wheels, with the corresponding
heavy rim are all about marketing, not performance, like ohh so much about
bicycles these days(threadless, oversized handlebars, compact frames,
integrated HS, etc).

The best, most reliable, long term wheel solution is the proper choice of rims,
spokes and builder, to ensure the wheelset is proper for the rider and their
needs.

trn-<< Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I think they are
for show >><BR><BR>

bing, bing, bing, we have a winner!!!

Well, I wasn't just guessing. I just wondered if my experience has been
made moot by technological advances, and now all you folks have
confirmed that it has NOT.

My proudest wheel building experience was when I was a young bike
mechanic, and a tandem riding guy asked me to build a wheel for him. He
said he had nothing but bad experiences with his rear wheels. He was not
at all mechanically inclined, and he relied entirely on professionals.
This was in about 1982. Remember Weinmann concave rims? I chose that, as
it was heavy and strong, relative to everything else available. He had
an Atom hub with a built in drum brake. The flanges were huge. It had 48
spokes. I had never built a 48-spoke wheel before. The spaces between
the spoke nipples was very inconvenient. The wheel took me many hours
and lots of trial and error. In fact, it took so much time that my
employer lost money on it.

The customer took the wheel on a several-week tour. He came back just to
tell me that rather than the normal failures, it was as straight as the
day he picked it up. I was not only proud, I was surprised.

Tom

"Tom Reingold" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think they all look alike (like 1990-2003). In any case the author
is listed as [email hidden] and @hpl.com or @hp.hpl.com
"Tour of the Alps 1980" etc.

Have you tried http://groups.google.com ?

No, for some reason even though Jobst has been on the rec.bicycles
hieararchy since the dawn of time he's never heard of Google, in fact, he's
never heard of the World Wide Web, he's Usenet only.

Greg

G. T. said:

Tom Reingold said:

Quoted message said:

I think they all look alike (like 1990-2003). In any case the author
is listed as [email hidden] and @hpl.com or @hp.hpl.com
"Tour of the Alps 1980" etc.

Have you tried http://groups.google.com ?

No, for some reason even though Jobst has been on the rec.bicycles
hieararchy since the dawn of time he's never heard of Google, in fact,
he's never heard of the World Wide Web, he's Usenet only.

From http://groups.google.com/googlegroups/help.html#archive:

,----
| How far back does Google's archive go?
|
| Google has fully integrated the past 20 years of Usenet archives into
| Google Groups, which now offers access to more than 845 million messages
| dating back to 1981. We believe this to be the most complete collection of
| Usenet articles ever assembled and a fascinating first-hand historical
| account.
`----

.... thus the problem of locating ride reports dating before this time.

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of
oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover

I have engaged the Google search service to find links to my older
ride reports:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=352427

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have engaged the Google search service to find links to my older
ride reports:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=352427

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

I'm not sure if this is the correct link:
http://www-math.science.unitn.it/Bike/Countries/Europe/Tour_Reports/Tour_of_the_Alps/
-tom

Tom Reingold said:

.. I remember reading Jobst Brandt's book on building wheels. I learned
a lot from it. I also learned a lot from reading his posts here. Hi,
Jobst, if you are reading. Back then, he pointed out that more spokes
make a better wheel than fewer spokes. Yet modern wheels have shockingly
few spokes. Is this because people tolerate weaker wheels than before,
or have there been advances in materials that allow the new wheels to be
as strong as the old 36-spoke wheels?
Another thing I notice is the silly spoking patterns. I think they are
for show. Some rear wheels are radially spoked on the left side. Many
front wheels are radially spoked. Maybe it doesn't hurt durability that
much, but it can't help.
...
Tom Reingold Noo Joizy

Tom, along with the lower spoke counts, deeper rim sections are also a
trend. Low counts REQUIRE a deeper rim section to distribute the load
to the adjacent spokes. Break a spoke on these minimal count wheels and
there will be problems. Larger problems than an old 36 count rim. Yes,
spoke materials have improved GREATLY especially with regards to the
raw alloys (primarily 18/8 stainless or 300 series) but also with
respect to the wire drawing, swaging and heading. Spoke failure with
quality spokes is rare but I have had one. I traced it to a
longitudinal nick in the raw wire.

"Silly spoking patterns" might include paired spoking? If so, I agree.
But radial lacing the DRIVE side works to reduce dish AND make a more
durable wheel if and only if the rear hub body is of sufficient diameter
and shell thickness. In the old days, the rear hub shell was thin and
small in diameter. Its torsional stiffness was nil and most all torque
(90-98%)was transmitted to the drive side spokes. With radial non-drive
side, even less is carried because the left hub must "wind up" before
any torque can be transmitted.

Radial drive side lacing hubs require a hub body of at least 25mm OD and
2mm thickness. Using heads in radial lacing drive side, 2 cross non-
drive, my drive side is tensioned to 115 kgf and my non-drive is 110
kgf. This is using a symmetric rim and a hub with a left offset of 31mm,
right offset of 17mm. After 8000+ miles, no truing has been required but
then again, I'm a bit of a flyweight at 155 pounds.

--