Wheelbuild question

ZeeExSixAre said:

Have any of you experienced radial hopping as a result of
spoke tension?

I rebuilt my 7-sp road hub today with a Sun M13II rim. 32
spokes, straight
2., brass, grease on spokes and rim holes (I know, should
have used threadlocker).

No, grease is good. Straight gauge spokes, however, are not--
that was a false economy. Butted spokes aren't that much
more expensive, and build a more reliable wheel.

Quoted message said:

On the Park tensionometer, I ended up at around 26-27 on
their scale, which is about 130 lbs or whatever on the
drive side.

I think the units are "kGf" and that's a bit on the
high side.

Quoted message said:

Didn't check the NDS, but tension was pretty even all the
way around.

(For the benefit of English-speaking readers, "NDS" is
Secret Code Jargon for "left."😉

Quoted message said:

After radial truing, I found that I could get it within
1mm or two radially, and maybe .5mm laterally. I couldn't
get rid of the small radial hops because all the dips
towards the hub were on the DS

(Secret Code Jargon for "right"😉

Quoted message said:

spokes and all the hops away from the hub were on the NDS
spokes, which makes sense of course.

The wheel was dished properly and it sits just fine in
the frame.

Question: Is the M13II rim too light/too cheap to get
radially true? I've built up a Rhyno Lite with no
problems, but then again it's gobs heavier.

You may have messed it up by overtightening the spokes. It
is not usual for a rim to have such sharp vertical variances
that the issue of which spoke the dip or bump is at is an
issue. When working on roundness, I generally deal with
either 3 or 4 spokes at a time.

Sheldon "Sorry, You Pushed My 'DS/NDS' Button" Brown
+--------------------------------+
| Happy Reynolds Day! (5/31) |
+--------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West
Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
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Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>,

ZeeExSixAre said:

Have any of you experienced radial hopping as a result of
spoke tension?

I rebuilt my 7-sp road hub today with a Sun M13II rim. 32
spokes, straight
2., brass, grease on spokes and rim holes (I know, should
have used threadlocker).

On the Park tensionometer, I ended up at around 26-27 on
their scale, which is about 130 lbs or whatever on the
drive side. Didn't check the NDS, but tension was pretty
even all the way around.

After radial truing, I found that I could get it within
1mm or two radially, and maybe .5mm laterally. I couldn't
get rid of the small radial hops because all the dips
towards the hub were on the DS spokes and all the hops
away from the hub were on the NDS spokes, which makes
sense of course.

The wheel was dished properly and it sits just fine in
the frame.

Question: Is the M13II rim too light/too cheap to get
radially true? I've built up a Rhyno Lite with no problems,
but then again it's gobs heavier.

I assume you mean 130 kilograms.

I haven't built that rim, but that's a lot of tension. I
usually do not exceed 120 myself and use less than that on
some wheels if I don't think it's a super rim. In theory I
want it as tight as possible but the limits to tightness
vary somewhat among different rims. If I explore the limits
all the time it means I have to wreck some rims.

Sheldon Brown said:

You may have messed it up by overtightening the spokes. It
is not usual for a rim to have such sharp vertical
variances that the issue of which spoke the dip or bump is
at is an issue.

By messed up, do you mean that the rim is ruined? That it
won't 'relax' out to a circle, that the metal of the rim has
been deformed permanently?

Hmmm... maybe with 72 or 144 spokes, you can get a series of
flat segments that, for all intents and purposes, functions
as a circle for the tires 🙂

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dan Daniel said:

Sheldon Brown said:

You may have messed it up by overtightening the spokes. It
is not usual for a rim to have such sharp vertical
variances that the issue of which spoke the dip or bump is
at is an issue.

By messed up, do you mean that the rim is ruined? That it
won't 'relax' out to a circle, that the metal of the rim
has been deformed permanently?

You can answer that question by detensioning the wheel. My
guess is it's bent.

phil-<< I rebuilt my 7-sp road hub today with a Sun M13II
rim. 32 spokes, straight
2., brass, grease on spokes and rim holes (I know, should
have used threadlocker). >><BR><BR>

No you should NOT use 'threadlocker'.

<< Question: Is the M13II rim too light/too cheap to get
radially true? I've built up a Rhyno Lite with no problems,
but then again it's gobs heavier.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

I would reduce all tension, then get it round. The tension
should be about 100 kgf, whatever that is on your Paerk
tensionometer. I suspect the tension is too high on the
right side.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(3)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Zeeexsixare
Have any of you experienced radial hopping as a result of
spoke tension?

I rebuilt my 7-sp road hub today with a Sun M13II rim. 32
spokes, straight
2., brass, grease on spokes and rim holes (I know, should
have used threadlocker).

On the Park tensionometer, I ended up at around 26-27 on
their scale, which is about 130 lbs or whatever on the drive
side. Didn't check the NDS, but tension was pretty even all
the way around.

After radial truing, I found that I could get it within 1mm
or two radially, and maybe .5mm laterally. I couldn't get
rid of the small radial hops because all the dips towards
the hub were on the DS spokes and all the hops away from the
hub were on the NDS spokes, which makes sense of course.

The wheel was dished properly and it sits just fine in
the frame.

Question: Is the M13II rim too light/too cheap to get
radially true? I've built up a Rhyno Lite with no problems,
but then again it's gobs heavier.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Some Sun rims have quality issues that make this a problem on many models. I have had similar issues with different models of of Sun rims. Some models come out great with even spoke tension and others have the issue you found.
Further I have found Sun rims to have ERD variations within the same model. I suspect Sun quality control issues.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Have any of you experienced radial hopping as a result of
spoke tension? I rebuilt my 7-sp road hub today with a Sun
M13II rim. 32 spokes, straight
2., brass, grease on spokes and rim holes (I know, should
have used threadlocker).

You should have used double butter spokes, they build a more
durable wheel. Also, no you should not use threadlocker. If
you build the wheel properly it is not necessary.
Threadlocker will also make it difficult to true your wheel
in the future.
----------
Alex

Alex Rodriguez said:

You should have used double butter spokes, they build a
more durable wheel. ^^^^^^

I find they're a bit too soft...

--
Benjamin Lewis

Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.
-- Walt Kelly

Benjamin Lewis said:

Alex Rodriguez said:

You should have used double butter spokes, they build a
more durable wheel. ^^^^^^

I find they're a bit too soft...

Dear Benjamin,

No, no, they're not made of butter, they're buttered at
both ends.

In "The Bicycle Wheel," 12th edition (Huffy Press, 2005,
$49.95), there's an "Atkins Diet" afterword contributed by
Sheldon Brown that explains that due to the current oil
shortage, other lubricants may be suitable for the spoke
nipples and that you might as well lube the spoke elbows
while you're at it..

Carl Fogel

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Have any of you experienced radial hopping as a result of
spoke tension? I rebuilt my 7-sp road hub today with a Sun
M13II rim. 32 spokes, straight
2., brass, grease on spokes and rim holes (I know, should
have used threadlocker).

You should have used double butter spokes, they build a
more durable wheel.

They are also tastier. 🙂 Of course I meant doublt
butted spokes.
-------------
Alex

ZeeExSixAre said:

Question: Is the M13II rim too light/too cheap to get
radially true? I've built up a Rhyno Lite with no
problems, but then again it's gobs heavier.

Definitely not too light. I think it's published weight is
493 grams.

Art Harris

Quoted message said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

Alex Rodriguez said:

You should have used double butter spokes, they build a
more durable wheel. ^^^^^^

I find they're a bit too soft...

Dear Benjamin,

No, no, they're not made of butter, they're buttered at
both ends.

I don't believe butter offers any compelling advantages over
olive oil as a spoke lubricant, sauteed mushrooms
notwithstanding. On a pasta bike, olive oil has clear
advantages.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.
-- Walt Kelly

Benjamin Lewis said:

On a pasta bike, olive oil has clear advantages.

Damn. My stomach had forgotten about the old pasta bike
discussion.

How about a fried ravioli bike?
--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian said:

Benjamin Lewis said:

On a pasta bike, olive oil has clear advantages.

Damn. My stomach had forgotten about the old pasta bike
discussion.

How about a fried ravioli bike?

I'm sorry, I'd give this more considered thought, but I
suddenly realized a trip to the kitchen is more important.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Gravity is a myth, the Earth sucks.

"Paul Southworth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dan Daniel said:

Sheldon Brown said:

You may have messed it up by overtightening the spokes.
It is not usual for a rim to have such sharp vertical
variances that the issue of which spoke the dip or bump
is at is an issue.

By messed up, do you mean that the rim is ruined? That it
won't 'relax' out to a circle, that the metal of the rim
has been deformed permanently?

You can answer that question by detensioning the wheel. My
guess is it's bent.

I'm talking 1mm or so... don't you need at least a
centimeter of deflection per, say, an arc of 20cm of rim to
bend it in the radial direction?

Oh well - I'm going to go back and go down in the tension...
thanks for the advice.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

No, grease is good. Straight gauge spokes, however, are
not--that was a false economy. Butted spokes aren't that
much more expensive, and build a more reliable wheel.

I'm a college student... I'm pretty much limited to
straight guage, and with my heft weighing in at 140 lbs, I
probably won't be stressing my wheels that much. I've
broken 3 spokes on this particular wheel... 2 on its first
build with really poor quality stainless spokes and 1 on
the first rebuild because tension was all over the place (4
of the spokes had no tension, actually). This time, they're
all DT... they're used spokes of slightly different
lengths, but they seem to be fine.

Quoted message said:

I think the units are "kGf" and that's a bit on the
high side.

I've always had tension too low in other wheels, so I made
sure I trued by increasing instead of decreasing tension.
Guess I overshot the mark a bit.

Quoted message said:

You may have messed it up by overtightening the spokes. It
is not usual for a rim to have such sharp vertical
variances that the issue of which

Hmm... maybe I overstated the issue. The radial hops aren't
visually noticeable - I can't see them while looking at the
brake pad/rim relation, and I definitely can't feel it while
riding. (And wow... the ride is so nice with this current
wheelbuild compared to before!) Only when I put the wheel in
the stand and place the calipers under the rim do I hear the
slight chatter. Maybe it's not as bad as I made it sound.

Quoted message said:

spoke the dip or bump is at is an issue. When working
on roundness, I generally deal with either 3 or 4
spokes at a time.

Yes - I was dealing with 3 and 5 usually...

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

No you should NOT use 'threadlocker'.

I meant spoke prep, whoops!

Quoted message said:

I would reduce all tension, then get it round. The tension
should be about

100

Quoted message said:

kgf, whatever that is on your Paerk tensionometer. I
suspect the tension

is too

Quoted message said:

high on the right side.

Thanks for the advice!
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

Some Sun rims have quality issues that make this a
problem on many models. I have had similar issues with
different models of of Sun rims. Some models come out
great with even spoke tension and others have the issue
you found. Further I have found Sun rims to have ERD
variations within the same model. I suspect Sun quality
control issues.

In this case, there's daylight showing through the seam...
I thought that was a little weird, but it wasn't too bad
in the truing stand. I'm assuming this is something to
worry about...

BTW, this was a rim hanging around in the shop I work at.
$15.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Zeeexsixare
> Some Sun rims have quality issues that make this a

Quoted message said:

problem on many models. I have had similar issues with
different models of of Sun rims. Some models come out
great with even spoke tension and others have the issue
you found. Further I have found Sun rims to have ERD
variations within the same model. I suspect Sun quality
control issues.

In this case, there's daylight showing through the seam...
I thought that was a little weird, but it wasn't too bad
in the truing stand. I'm assuming this is something to
worry about...

BTW, this was a rim hanging around in the shop I work at.
$15.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Daylight showing through the seam doesn't sound good, but depending how they secured it, there may be a couple of gaps that wouldn't be a problem. Sometimes the splice doesn't fill all the way around.
It sounds like you are mastering the build issues.
It is better to put the " slop" of rim problems in the radial direction, as long as they are in the range you are talking about.
I would ride the wheel and see how it goes.
Keep watch over tension and irregularities around the joint and spoke holes.