Wheel truing

Jonathan Campbell said:

Is there any point in me learning to true wheels? From reading books,
it seems relatively straightforward.

Yes, having the skill will save time & money in the long run if you're
likely to own more wheels in future. Also it will enable you to carry on
cycling after some incident has buckled a wheel or broken a spoke.

It shouldn't be needed as /routine/ maintenance, though. Once a wheel is
properly built, or retensioned, it should stay true.

Quoted message said:

Could it be done without a truing stand / jig?

Yes, just with the wheel fitted as normal, using the brake blocks as a
guide. You need to make sure the wheel doesn't get too off-centre.
Flipping the wheel back to front helps check.

Quoted message said:

If not, what is the
least expensive jig that would be usable? ( I have a workstand.)

The job is quicker and more pleasant with a jig. Minoura Workman Pro is
quite useful.

Get a Spokey (capital ess), or another spoke key at least as good.

~PB

"Jonathan Campbell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is there any point in me learning to true wheels? From reading books, it
seems relatively straightforward.

Yes and yes.

Quoted message said:

Could it be done without a truing stand / jig?

Yes - your bike will serve as a truing stand. I've built several wheels
without anything more.

Quoted message said:

For example, the immediate requirement is a mountain bike front wheel that
wobbles side by side (laterally?) about four or five mm.; the rim is not
buckled in the radial direction.

I could take the wheel to my LBS, but he is 20 miles away. Also, if it is
something which will be needed as almost routine maintenance, then it
might be worth learning and buying equipment for. OTOH, I don't want to
spend money on equipment and end up doing more harm than good.

Buy a decent spoke key - eg a spokey

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=19098

That's the only equipment you'll need, and it is worth learning how to true
wheels.

I'd save getting a jig/stand for if you're doing a lot of it.

cheers,
clive

In article <[email hidden]>, Jonathan
Campbell
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Is there any point in me learning to true wheels? From reading books, it
seems relatively straightforward.

Could it be done without a truing stand / jig?

Yes - just pop the tyre off, stick the wheel back in the bike and use
the brake blocks as a guide. If the wheel is out of round (hops up and
down) you can stick something like a biro across the stays/fork blades,
secured with a couple of elastic bands. Although this may take a bit
longer than a proper jig the results can be just as good.

Quoted message said:

If not, what is the least
expensive jig that would be usable? ( I have a workstand.)

For example, the immediate requirement is a mountain bike front wheel
that wobbles side by side (laterally?) about four or five mm.; the rim
is not buckled in the radial direction.

I could take the wheel to my LBS, but he is 20 miles away. Also, if it
is something which will be needed as almost routine maintenance, then it
might be worth learning and buying equipment for. OTOH, I don't want to
spend money on equipment and end up doing more harm than good.

Don't try to get away with a crappy spoke key - these are really good:
http://www.cyclesportsuk.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=1068
If the spokes are corroded you might find you break them rather than
turning the nipples, so give the nipples a good soak in penetrating oil
first and have some spare spokes of the correct length handy.

Jonathan Campbell said:

Is there any point in me learning to true wheels? From reading books, it
seems relatively straightforward.

Thanks everyone. That's exactly the sort of advice I was looking for. (I
used to do most of my own car maintenance, and then cars got more
complicated, and more reliable, so that the (side effect) advantage of
being able to fix a problem on the side of the road diminished, along
with the scope for doing more harm than good --- exacerbated by
infrequent practice.)

Best regards,

Jon C.

Jonathan Campbell said:

Is there any point in me learning to true wheels?

Yes. If by "truing" you also mean, "getting the overall tensions
right in the first place, then stress-relieving" it's particularly
useful. Simple truing is obviously only useful if the wheel is un-
true to begin with. However a properly tensioned wheel is also
stronger and will last longer.

Sheldon Brown's website has the best hands-on descriptions, Jobst
Brandt's book is the thing to read if you want to know more.

A Spokey is definitely the key to have. Cheap, but still the best I've
found. Good, new spokes and nipples (DT) make life simpler to. If a
gnarly old spoke offends thee, chop the bugger out and replace it with
a new one. They're cheap in comparison to the hassle factor.

Check on youtube - no doubt there'll be a video of some yank going through the process.

As you're doing it, try to understand the process that makes the wheel true. Once you understand that, it'll be pretty easy to carry out the process.

IMO, you don't really need a wheel truing stand, just do it in the forks of the bike using the naked eye - that's good enough. Unless of course, you want the wheels trued ultra well for speed.

Jonathan Campbell said:

Is there any point in me learning to true wheels? From reading books, it
seems relatively straightforward.

Could it be done without a truing stand / jig? If not, what is the least
expensive jig that would be usable? ( I have a workstand.)

For example, the immediate requirement is a mountain bike front wheel
that wobbles side by side (laterally?) about four or five mm.; the rim
is not buckled in the radial direction.

For that just get a spoke key (costing only a few pounds) and carefully
tighten a couple of spokes on the side it's wobbling away from and
loosen a couple on the other side. About 1/4 turn at a time and don't
over-correct.

No need to take the tyre off or even turn the bike upside-down-- just
lift the front up and spin the wheel to find the wobble relative to the
brake blocks.

Definitely easier than going to an LBS 20 miles away.

People can be very perfectionist about even spoke tension and things but
it doesn't really make much practical difference to anything.

A truing stand is useful (although not necessary) if you want to build
up whole wheels.

Quoted message said:

I could take the wheel to my LBS, but he is 20 miles away. Also, if it
is something which will be needed as almost routine maintenance, then it
might be worth learning and buying equipment for. OTOH, I don't want to
spend money on equipment and end up doing more harm than good.

In article <[email hidden]>, Ben C
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

People can be very perfectionist

As opposed to slightly perfectionist?

Quoted message said:

about even spoke tension and things but
it doesn't really make much practical difference to anything.

Until you get a broken spoke on a heavily laden bike far from anywhere.

Rob Morley said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Ben C
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

People can be very perfectionist

As opposed to slightly perfectionist?

Yes. I would describe myself as slightly perfectionist both in my
wheel-building technique and in my use of words like perfectionist.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about even spoke tension and things but
it doesn't really make much practical difference to anything.

Until you get a broken spoke on a heavily laden bike far from anywhere.

Yes but does anyone actually really know for sure that uneven spoke
tension actually contributed to the broken spoke they got on a heavily
laden bike far from anywhere?

What's the theoretical justification even supposed to be? Is it the
loose ones that are supposed to break or the tight ones?

Brandt claims loose spokes break indirectly because, being loose, they
are inclined to miss out on "stress-relief". But the whole stress-relief
story is pretty fishy in the first place.

Others say (plausibly enough) very loose spokes flex more which is why
they break, although Brandt denies this.

But anyway uneven tension doesn't mean any spokes are _that_ loose.

As for tight spokes, they don't break. If you have very tight spokes,
the rim cracks, but the spokes are usually OK, so long as they're well
supported at the elbows.

Ben C said:

Brandt claims loose spokes break indirectly because, being loose, they
are inclined to miss out on "stress-relief". But the whole
stress-relief story is pretty fishy in the first place.

I would think stress relieveing was a fishy idea too, except I've never had
a broken spoke since I've been doing it. It's been long enough for me to
believe that it might really be helping.

Quoted message said:

Others say (plausibly enough) very loose spokes flex more which is why
they break, although Brandt denies this.

But anyway uneven tension doesn't mean any spokes are _that_ loose.

As for tight spokes, they don't break.

*That is not true*. I've had several tight spokes break (before I learnt
about good wheel building and stress relieving). A tight spokes reduces in
tension when it is loaded at the bottom of the wheel. (Prove this by
plucking the spoke and listening to the tone when weight is on the bike).
The constantly changing tension as the bike is ridden causes fatigue.

However, I agree that spoke tension doesn't have to extremely even for a
wheel to be reliable. That said, you still might as well get it as even as
you can manage within reason.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

Ben C said:

Brandt claims loose spokes break indirectly because, being loose, they
are inclined to miss out on "stress-relief". But the whole
stress-relief story is pretty fishy in the first place.

I would think stress relieveing was a fishy idea too, except I've never had
a broken spoke since I've been doing it. It's been long enough for me to
believe that it might really be helping.

I think it probably can help, just not necessarily for the reasons
Brandt says it does.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Others say (plausibly enough) very loose spokes flex more which is why
they break, although Brandt denies this.

But anyway uneven tension doesn't mean any spokes are _that_ loose.

As for tight spokes, they don't break.

*That is not true*. I've had several tight spokes break (before I learnt
about good wheel building and stress relieving). A tight spokes reduces in
tension when it is loaded at the bottom of the wheel.

So do all spokes.

Quoted message said:

(Prove this by
plucking the spoke and listening to the tone when weight is on the bike).
The constantly changing tension as the bike is ridden causes fatigue.

You always have this loading/unloading cycle. If the average tension in
this cycle is high, then you might get a fatigue failure.

So other things being equal, tighter spokes might be more at risk of
fatigue failure.

But I think the main contributor to dangerously high tension is the
leverage you get from a poorly supported elbow. If the elbow isn't close
enough to flush with the hub flange, the stress can be high enough there
to cause problems even if the spoke tension on the main part of the
spoke is quite low.

If the elbow is close to the flange, the tension there should be safely
low enough even if the spoke itself is so tight as to be causing
rim-cracking problems (i.e. far too tight).

Quoted message said:

However, I agree that spoke tension doesn't have to extremely even for a
wheel to be reliable. That said, you still might as well get it as even as
you can manage within reason.

Certainly, even if for nothing more than sort of aesthetic reasons.

Ben C said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for tight spokes, they don't break.

*That is not true*. I've had several tight spokes break (before I
learnt about good wheel building and stress relieving). A tight
spokes reduces in tension when it is loaded at the bottom of the
wheel.

So do all spokes.

Yes of course, that is my point. It happens to all spokes (except those
with no tension in the first place). So do you take back your statement
that "tight spokes don't break"?

It is the *difference* in tension that causes fatigue, and you get the same
difference with tight spokes as less tight ones (as long as they are not
/extremely/ slack).

Saying that tight spokes don't break is untrue and misleading. It may give
people a false sense of security if they think all will be well if their
spokes are tight. The wheel needs to have been built well altogether; and
stress relieving probably helps.

~PB

Jonathan Campbell said:

Is there any point in me learning to true wheels? From reading books, it
seems relatively straightforward.

There's a pretty good guide here (in video form). It's very clear but
since I've never done this myself I can't vouch for its accuracy:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Wheel-Truing-Tutorial/

Pete Biggs said:

Ben C said:

Quoted message said:

> As for tight spokes, they don't break.

*That is not true*. I've had several tight spokes break (before I
learnt about good wheel building and stress relieving). A tight
spokes reduces in tension when it is loaded at the bottom of the
wheel.

So do all spokes.

Yes of course, that is my point. It happens to all spokes (except those
with no tension in the first place). So do you take back your statement
that "tight spokes don't break"?

OK, yes I take it back, because it looks like I meant "provided they are
tight they won't break". I actually meant "tight spokes don't have to
break".

Quoted message said:

It is the *difference* in tension that causes fatigue,

I don't think that's right. The relationship between stress and fatigue
is that if the mean stress in the stress cycle is high, fatigue takes
fewer cycles.

So a small cyclic tension change at a high tension is worse than a
bigger tension change at a lower tension.

Quoted message said:

and you get the same difference with tight spokes as less tight ones
(as long as they are not /extremely/ slack).

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Saying that tight spokes don't break is untrue and misleading. It may give
people a false sense of security if they think all will be well if their
spokes are tight.

Quite right, and I didn't mean to give that impression.

Ben C said:

Pete Biggs said:

Ben C said:

>> As for tight spokes, they don't break.
>
> *That is not true*. I've had several tight spokes break (before I
> learnt about good wheel building and stress relieving). A tight
> spokes reduces in tension when it is loaded at the bottom of the
> wheel.

So do all spokes.

Yes of course, that is my point. It happens to all spokes (except
those with no tension in the first place). So do you take back your
statement that "tight spokes don't break"?

OK, yes I take it back, because it looks like I meant "provided they
are tight they won't break". I actually meant "tight spokes don't have to
break".

Quoted message said:

It is the *difference* in tension that causes fatigue,

I don't think that's right. The relationship between stress and
fatigue
is that if the mean stress in the stress cycle is high, fatigue takes
fewer cycles.

So a small cyclic tension change at a high tension is worse than a
bigger tension change at a lower tension.

Quoted message said:

and you get the same difference with tight spokes as less tight ones
(as long as they are not /extremely/ slack).

Yes.

Quoted message said:

Saying that tight spokes don't break is untrue and misleading. It
may give people a false sense of security if they think all will be
well if their spokes are tight.

Quite right, and I didn't mean to give that impression.

Thanks for you reply, Ben, I appreciate it, and the clarification might be
useful to others.

I won't argue any more with what exactly causes fatigue because I must admit
I'm not sure about the finer points of the subject. You may well be right.

~PB

On Sun, 2 Mar 2008 11:14:42 -0000, "Pete Biggs"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[---]

Quoted message said:

However, I agree that spoke tension doesn't have to extremely even for a
wheel to be reliable. That said, you still might as well get it as even as
you can manage within reason.

How do you do that - by ear, or do you use a tensiometer?

Andrew Price said:

Quoted message said:

However, I agree that spoke tension doesn't have to extremely even
for a wheel to be reliable. That said, you still might as well get
it as even as you can manage within reason.

How do you do that - by ear, or do you use a tensiometer?

As long as you're not tone-deaf, by ear is easily good enough for getting
the tension even. It only takes a slight difference in tension to sound a
bum note.

I have enough notes for a symphony in my wheels. Fortunately they work fine
as wheels!

(We should point out (for newbies etc) that tension of the left or non-drive
side spokes of a rear dished wheels is supposed to be lower than the other).

~PB

On Mar 1, 12:45 pm, "Pete Biggs"

Quoted message said:

Get a Spokey (capital ess), or another spoke key at least as good.

I've got an old Carlton from the late 70s that needs some spokes
tightening. I went to the local bike shop for a spoke key but they
didn't have one the right size (it was too small for the nipples).

Anybody got any idea what size nipples I'm likely to have on those
wheels (I suspect they're the original ones as they have Raleigh
stickers on)? I'm not sure which spoke key I should be ordering...

Graham Ashton said:

I've got an old Carlton from the late 70s that needs some spokes
tightening. I went to the local bike shop for a spoke key but they
didn't have one the right size (it was too small for the nipples).

Anybody got any idea what size nipples I'm likely to have on those
wheels (I suspect they're the original ones as they have Raleigh
stickers on)? I'm not sure which spoke key I should be ordering...

Try this one first:

www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=19098

If it doesn't fit, you would have only spent £5 and will own a good key for
other wheels. There is a larger yellow version - Google or eBay.

Other brands of spoke key complicatedly have more sizes, but the red and
yellow Spokeys are OK with all the nipples I've needed to deal with - on
various old and new bikes.

~PB