Wheel truing

Antonio Tonzie said:

While I have a general idea how to true a wheel, I take too long. I
need to know what the first step is. When I true for lateral
runout, how do I keep from getting it too much out of round.
Basically, I want to know a step by step how-to with an explanation
of why. t.i.a.

Roundness is the more difficult parameter when truing so if that
starts out alright, then always adjust lateral trueness by loosening
one side and tightening the other about the same amount. If the spoke
in question is conspicuously loose then just tighten that one.

When all is straight, then tighten the wheel by giving every spoke
nipple a half turn and see where you are. If you have a good library
nearby or a well stocked bicycle shop book shelf you can find a book
that describes this in more than enough detail... with pictures.

Quite aside from all that, I don't know what sort of wheels you have.
If they are mod 16-paired-spoke wheels, forget it. Low spoke could
wheels require a fixture to properly tighten their spokes.

Jobst Brandt

Antonio said:

Basically, i want to know a step by step how-to.with an explanation of why .

See:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/books.html#brandt

and

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#tensioning

Art Harris

Antonio said:

hello,
While i have a general idea how to true a wheel,i take too long.
I need to know:
what is the first step,

Go to Velopress or Google, Find Jobst Brandt's or Gerd Scraener's book,
read.....

Quoted message said:

when i true for lateral runout,how do i keep from getting it too much out of
round,
Basically ,i want to know a step by step how-to.with an explanation of why .
t.i.a.

Quoted message said:

Go to Velopress or Google, Find Jobst Brandt's or Gerd Scraener's book,
read.....

Gerd Shraner's (note the corrected spelling) book is called The Art of
Wheelbuilding: A Bench Reference for Neophytes

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quite aside from all that, I don't know what sort of wheels you have.
If they are mod 16-paired-spoke wheels, forget it. Low spoke could
wheels require a fixture to properly tighten their spokes.

Jobst Brandt

Jobst,
If you can find the time, could you elaborate on that fixture notion a bit?
That is new to me.
Thanks,
Blake

Blake Paton said:

Quoted message said:

Quite aside from all that, I don't know what sort of wheels you
have. If they are mod 16-paired-spoke wheels, forget it. Low
spoke could wheels require a fixture to properly tighten their
spokes.

Quoted message said:

Jobst, If you can find the time, could you elaborate on that fixture
notion a bit? That is new to me.

Spoke tension for 16 spokes must be so high that thread torque will
twist off spokes, especially with flat spokes, that have no more
torsional rigidity than "the largest inscribed circular cross
section", a rule that is not understood by many designers in
bicycling. Tension must be high enough that supporting loads, by
standing on the bottom spokes, does not make them become slack under
compression. For this reason, pressure boxes are used to support the
hub and displace it laterally with respect to rim center while each
side in sequence is trued to final tension. This is also how these
wheels are stress relieved, by overloading one side at a time. In
spite of these methods, spokes still become slack on enough road
irregularities that spoke nipples are gooped with some adhesive to
prevent unscrewing.

All this for the vanity of those who believe bicycling is more
enjoyable if only there were fewer spokes... fewer than in my
neighbor's wheels.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Blake Paton said:

Quoted message said:

Quite aside from all that, I don't know what sort of wheels you
have. If they are mod 16-paired-spoke wheels, forget it. Low
spoke could wheels require a fixture to properly tighten their
spokes.

Quoted message said:

Jobst, If you can find the time, could you elaborate on that fixture
notion a bit? That is new to me.

Spoke tension for 16 spokes must be so high that thread torque will
twist off spokes, especially with flat spokes,

eh? so how come the tension specified for my 16 spoke shimano r540's
are max 1200N?

http://www.shimano.com.au/publish/content/australia/en/cycling/customer_support/service_diagrams/wheels_service_diagrams.MainContentPar.0006.Schematic.0011.File.tmp/wh_7701_r540_si.pdf

a standard 32 spoke wheel and mavic open pro is 1100N. did shimano fail
to consult you on how increasing spoke tension increases wheel strength?

Quoted message said:

that have no more
torsional rigidity than "the largest inscribed circular cross
section", a rule that is not understood by many designers in
bicycling. Tension must be high enough that supporting loads, by
standing on the bottom spokes, does not make them become slack under
compression. For this reason, pressure boxes are used to support the
hub and displace it laterally with respect to rim center while each
side in sequence is trued to final tension. This is also how these
wheels are stress relieved, by overloading one side at a time. In
spite of these methods, spokes still become slack on enough road
irregularities that spoke nipples are gooped with some adhesive to
prevent unscrewing.

All this for the vanity of those who believe bicycling is more
enjoyable if only there were fewer spokes... fewer than in my
neighbor's wheels.

Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

Blake Paton said:

Quoted message said:

Quite aside from all that, I don't know what sort of wheels you
have. If they are mod 16-paired-spoke wheels, forget it. Low
spoke could wheels require a fixture to properly tighten their
spokes.

Quoted message said:

Jobst, If you can find the time, could you elaborate on that fixture
notion a bit? That is new to me.

Spoke tension for 16 spokes must be so high that thread torque will
twist off spokes, especially with flat spokes, that have no more
torsional rigidity than "the largest inscribed circular cross
section", a rule that is not understood by many designers in
bicycling. Tension must be high enough that supporting loads, by
standing on the bottom spokes, does not make them become slack under
compression. For this reason, pressure boxes are used to support the
hub and displace it laterally with respect to rim center while each
side in sequence is trued to final tension. This is also how these
wheels are stress relieved, by overloading one side at a time. In
spite of these methods, spokes still become slack on enough road
irregularities that spoke nipples are gooped with some adhesive to
prevent unscrewing.

I thought that your rec./preference was spoke tension just short
of localized rim deflection near the spoke independent of spoke
count(?). To do this using higher spoke tensions for reduced
spoke count would seem to demand stronger rims for lower spoke
counts.

Velocity, for example, lists one weight for the Deep V drilled
16 through 48. It seems unlikely, then, that the different
drillings have different capability to withstand localized rim
deflection near the spoke. Lower count rims would then be
tensioned (per my understanding of your rec.) the same as higher
count ones and would not present added threat of twisting off
spokes.

What did I miss?
Ed

Ed said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Spoke tension for 16 spokes must be so high that thread torque will
twist off spokes, especially with flat spokes, that have no more
torsional rigidity than "the largest inscribed circular cross
section", a rule that is not understood by many designers in
bicycling. Tension must be high enough that supporting loads, by
standing on the bottom spokes, does not make them become slack under
compression.

Quoted message said:

I thought that your rec./preference was spoke tension just short
of localized rim deflection near the spoke independent of spoke
count(?). To do this using higher spoke tensions for reduced
spoke count would seem to de mand stronger rims for lower spoke
counts.

Velocity, for example, lists one weight for the Deep V drilled
16 through 48. It seems unlikely, then, that the different
drillings have different capability to withstand localized rim
deflection ne ar the spoke. Lower count rims would then be
tensioned (per my understanding of your rec.) the same as higher
count ones and would not present added threat of twisting off
spokes.

What did I miss?

No, his recommendation doesn't involve local failure near a spoke hole,
but overtensioning of the whole wheel giving the rim a wave pattern.
So, fewer spokes can be individually tensioned higher for a similar net
effect.
Jobst's book explains it pretty well:
http://tinyurl.com/cmlag

In any case, if you can't tension the fewer spokes higher, you'll have
a weaker wheel, for the reason he describes above. Slack spokes =
trouble, that's why they are tensioned.

jim beam said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

eh? so how come the tension specified for my 16 spoke shimano r540's
are max 1200N?

http://www.shimano.com.au/publish/content/australia/en/cycling/customer_support/service_diagrams/wheels_service_diagrams.MainContentPar.0006.Schematic.0011.File.tmp/wh_7701_r540_si.pdf

a standard 32 spoke wheel and mavic open pro is 1100N. did shimano fail
to consult you on how increasing spoke tension increases wheel strength?

If I can read and convert pounds shimano reccomends tension on the right rear
side up to 1600N.
To be precise 236-360 lbA. If I'm correct that is 1070-1630 N.
Front and left are indeed up to 1200 N (265 lbA).

B Paton said:

Quoted message said:

Go to Velopress or Google, Find Jobst Brandt's or Gerd Scraener's book,
read.....

Gerd Shraner's (note the corrected spelling) book is called The Art of
Wheelbuilding: A Bench Reference for Neophytes

As is Jobst's book. The Shraner's is an easier read tho, better pix.
Not the cheezy hand drawn things.

B Paton said:

Quoted message said:

Go to Velopress or Google, Find Jobst Brandt's or Gerd Scraener's book,
read.....

Gerd Shraner's (note the corrected spelling) book is called The Art of
Wheelbuilding: A Bench Reference for Neophytes

neophytes? which is better:

1. a book that tells you what to do and allows you to build a reliable
wheel including the cosmetic refinement of getting the hub label aligned
with the rim valve hole, or

2. a book that poses as the definitive theoretical engineering treatise
but which actually contains serious conceptual and factual errors?

jim beam said:

B Paton said:

Quoted message said:

Go to Velopress or Google, Find Jobst Brandt's or Gerd Scraener's book,
read.....

Gerd Shraner's (note the corrected spelling) book is called The Art of
Wheelbuilding: A Bench Reference for Neophytes

neophytes? which is better:

1. a book that tells you what to do and allows you to build a reliable
wheel including the cosmetic refinement of getting the hub label aligned
with the rim valve hole, or

2. a book that poses as the definitive theoretical engineering treatise
but which actually contains serious conceptual and factual errors?

C'mon Jimmie. which is which???

I tink I know, I like Gerd's book also.

Ed who? said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Quite aside from all that, I don't know what sort of wheels you
> have. If they are mod 16-paired-spoke wheels, forget it. Low
> spoke could wheels require a fixture to properly tighten their
> spokes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jobst, If you can find the time, could you elaborate on that
fixture notion a bit? That is new to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Spoke tension for 16 spokes must be so high that thread torque will
twist off spokes, especially with flat spokes, that have no more
torsional rigidity than "the largest inscribed circular cross
section", a rule that is not understood by many designers in
bicycling. Tension must be high enough that supporting loads, by
standing on the bottom spokes, does not make them become slack
under compression. For this reason, pressure boxes are used to
support the hub and displace it laterally with respect to rim
center while each side in sequence is trued to final tension. This
is also how these wheels are stress relieved, by overloading one
side at a time. In spite of these methods, spokes still become
slack on enough road irregularities that spoke nipples are gooped
with some adhesive to prevent unscrewing.

Quoted message said:

I thought that your rec./preference was spoke tension just short of
localized rim deflection near the spoke independent of spoke
count(?). To do this using higher spoke tensions for reduced spoke
count would seem to demand stronger rims for lower spoke counts.

That doesn't hold for low spoke count where for the same compressive
rim load spoke tension would need to be twice that used in a 36-spoke
wheel. That is more than can be tightened without some means of
unloading the spoke. Besides that, the stress relief method I propose
for conventional wheels wouldn't work there because it would take
spoke beyond yield. I haven't heard of any home wheel builders
building 16-spoke wheels.

Quoted message said:

Velocity, for example, lists one weight for the Deep V drilled
16 through 48. It seems unlikely, then, that the different
drillings have different capability to withstand localized rim
deflection near the spoke. Lower count rims would then be
tensioned (per my understanding of your rec.) the same as higher
count ones and would not present added threat of twisting off
spokes.

Localized stress is a different matter. The maximum tension on
conventional rims was governed by rim cross sectional area. With 16
spokes, rims such as the Velocity cannot be readily over-tension to
buckling. On the other hand, with 36 or more spokes the rim will
limit tension. Most rims today have larger cross sections and no
sockets. Deep-V rims handle that better than conventional rims (that
are rapidly vanishing from the scene). Spoke break-out was never a
problem in the days when rims had spoke sockets and eyelets that
distributed load over a larger contact to inner and outer walls of
rims.

Quoted message said:

What did I miss?

MA-2 and similar rims. They're gone.

Jobst Brandt

i read the material from JB and Sheldon Brown-Harris but the schwinn
mgr put me straight on adjusting laterally at very very low torque-at
1/4 turns from the seated position.
beyond this achievement level lies a realm of unarticulated methods
not written of in these sources. for example, bends are trued from the
center out as are fender dents in the bolide,then there's rpoundness.
sheldon deals with roundenss but again, there's more after that level.
also remembert that some rims(good ones) heal after several trueings.