Wheel building, wheelset options

thomas_cho said:

Hi fellow cyclists,
I have been thinking about getting a wheelset built, or going with the Shimano R550/R560 wheelset.

I enquired about getting a wheelset built at one of the LBS around my area, and was told that I would be better off getting a used set of Mavics (quoted me $500). That didnt make much sense to me so I just walked out.

I have been reading about people who have Ultegra/Mavic open pro wheelsets built, and they rave about the reliability of such setups. Any idea how much such a wheelset would come in at?

I have been using my R550 for a while now, and at under $300 they are great value for money. But I am after a wheelset that has a higher spoke count, and comes in at abt the 1.7kg mark.

Alternatively, should I attempt to learn wheel building? There is a wheel building class run by Renegade cycles, class of 3 persons @ $100 each. Anyone in Sydney interested?

You should learn wheel building ...

While it IS easier to learn something in a quasi-apprentice situation where someone is looking over your shoulder, you are better off spendng that $100 on a tensiometer & spoke wrenches (probably close to the cost AU$ ... $60US for the Park tensiometer & $10US for the wrenches).

TRUING STAND ... you can make one OR use a/(your) bike frame, temporarily ... it really just holds the wheel while you are truing it ... here's a DIY design that LOOKS LIKE (to me) a Preciray derivation (that's a VERY GOOD truing stand, BTW):

[center]www.chc-3.com/pub/wheel_stand.htm[/center]

Some people have suggested using zip-ties attached to your bike frame as the guides ...

My truing stand is so lame that I have resorted to putting a piece of masking tape on the calipers which I mark with a THIN felt tip pen as the guide to get the rim centered ...

There are a lot of GOOD web-sites which explain wheel building ...

BTW. A new set of Open Pros on Shimano Ultegra hubs go for between $225-to-$300 in the US.

FWIW. A 32x3 on the drive side & 32x2 on the non-drive side makes a "better" rear wheel than a 32x3 on both sides.

Straight gauge spokes will build a laterally stiffer wheel ...

Some people advocate double-butted spokes ... that will result in added cost + some compromises.

Take an OLD (front) wheel (first) AND either put a new hub on the rim OR a new rim on the hub ...

Then, do the same with a rear wheel ...

AFTER you've done that, then work on your first new wheelset.

This is a GREAT spoke length calculator:

[center]geocities.comwheel.htmlOpen ↗[/center]

You can use the MAVIC OPEN 4 SUP (622-13) as a comparable rim to get the numbers for an OPEN PRO. Round down to the nearest whole number ... a spoke that is 1mm shorter is better than one that is 1mm too longer ...

inspiring project! I already have a truing stand (the minoura), and a tensiomenter (park tools). Just missing a old wheel to experiment with. Perhaps a disassembling and re-built of a front wheel might be in order.

Thing is ... theres a great chance of ruining the wheel for good!

You guys are hell hard core cyclists... building your own wheel...!!! FAR OUT I CRY OUT.

But since we're on this topic.. i'm looking around at some carbon wheelsets 2nd hand. I saw a set on ebay going for $100 bucks...some italian brand... anything to be weary about buying 2nd hand carbon wheels??

thomas_cho said:

inspiring project! I already have a truing stand (the minoura), and a tensiomenter (park tools). Just missing a old wheel to experiment with. Perhaps a disassembling and re-built of a front wheel might be in order.

Thing is ... theres a great chance of ruining the wheel for good!

It is ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE to ruin a front wheel "build" [the rear wheel, however, can be another story, but it doesn't have to be]...

I mean, the roof of the house you're living in -- or, the garage (if that's where you are working) -- would have to fall in because a tree fell onto the roof during a storm ... or, if you were so blitzed from one Fosters too many during the endeavor that you decided to test the wheel's roadworthiness by tossing it like a frisbee onto the roadway in front of a passing vehicle ...

LACING THE WHEEL. There are a few things you have to decide in the beginning (with a new wheel):[indent]* number of spokes

* number of crosses

[/indent]The number of spokes can influence the strength, durability, longevity of a wheel.

The number of crosses will affect the lateral and vertical stiffness.

Since your first attempt may simply be replacing the hub, the only thing you have to do when buying the hub is ensuring that it has the SAME number of spoke holes as your old hub. When replacing a rim, if it is not the same make & model, you have to be aware that the EFFECTIVE RIM DIAMETER may be different with different rims which will probably result in requiring spokes of a different length.

Apparently, PRO teams generally train on 32x3 because it is (thanks to the common use of stainless steel spokes beginning in the late 70s) a fairly strong wheel which can sustain thousands of miles of use with minimum maintenance.

TIP #1. With a traditionally laced wheel that has opposing PAIRS of spokes, a key to a wheel built by a "thoughtful" wheelbuilder is that the VALVE HOLE will be BETWEEN two sets of four spokes. I've seen wheels built by shops (reputable shops!) where the valve hole is nesteled amongst a cluster of spokes -- that's very BAD FORM which you should avoid.

OTHER wheel building "tips" will follow if you need/want them ...

Okay I guess I could watch out for a bargain on ebay, and try to pick up a F&R hub cheaply. I saw some ambrosio excursion rims for under a $100, any idea if they are good rims?

Cheers

thomas_cho said:

Okay I guess I could watch out for a bargain on ebay, and try to pick up a F&R hub cheaply. I saw some ambrosio excursion rims for under a $100, any idea if they are good rims?

Cheers

AMBROSIO rims are amongst the very best.

To the best of my knowledge, in the past, AMBROSIO rims have been (and, probably still are) "re-labeled" for sale as both Campagnolo and Colnago "rims" ... so, I would guess that AMBROSIO is the current rim supplier for Campagnolo's wheels AND if Colnago is still selling rims in their product line, then they are undoubtedly made by AMBROSIO.

I guess the EXCURSION is best described as a slightly beefier variant of the AMBROSIO EXCELLENCE rim.

Bought the Ambrosio Excursion rims, now looking for a set of hubs.

Saw a set of Ritchey Zero comp front and rear hubs for sale abt$70 incl postage from US. Could not find much information regarding these hubs, apart from the fact that the comp range of ritchey components represent the "budget" series.

Any idea if they are reliable?

What about flat bladed spokes? They cost up to 3 times as much, are they 3 times as strong?

thomas_cho said:

Bought the Ambrosio Excursion rims, now looking for a set of hubs.

Saw a set of Ritchey Zero comp front and rear hubs for sale abt$70 incl postage from US. Could not find much information regarding these hubs, apart from the fact that the comp range of ritchey components represent the "budget" series.

Any idea if they are reliable?

What about flat bladed spokes? They cost up to 3 times as much, are they 3 times as strong?

The Ritchey rear hub has, IMO, a funky freehub body which is removed (should you need to replace it) in the same way a MAVIC hub is disassembled ... the BOLT is accessed from the non-drive side of the hub (!?!) which is how I think the MAVIC hubs are disassembled.

I would buy WHATEVER pair of Shimano hubs is in the price range that you want to spend ... you'll be much happier in the long run.

The less expensive Shimano hubs MAY need to have their cones adjusted since SOME come from the factory on the tight side which is what may make them feel rough out-of-the-box.

Forget about the bladed spokes ... they are supposedly a little more aerodynamic, but the trade-off is in lateral stiffness -- a dubious legacy from the late 70s & early 80s when wind-tunnel aerodynamics of the bike were a big-deal without taking into account the bulky rider sitting on top of the bike. No doubt, Lemond changed THAT once-and-for-all with the aerobars he used in the TdF. The bladed spokes may make a difference to a time trialist; but, I think they would opt for a "special" low spoke count front wheel & "disc" rear wheel. That is not to say that aerodynamics don't play a roll, but the bladed spokes are probably not the way to gain the benefit. When you look at the spokes on a wheel like the MAVIC Ksyrium SSC, they are basically FLAT bands of aluminum.

Straight 14g stainless steel spokes (e.g., DT) are your best option ... at least, for your first set of wheels.

As per other comments...

HELL YOU GUYS ARE KEEN... BUILDING YOUR OWN WHEELS!!!

I commend you on your thirst for knowledge and eagerness to develop a skill that most people (including my good self) don't have the time or the inclination to do. Kudos to you!

My thoughts on this thread are relatively simple:

1. Buying Mavics Vs. buying bits and having your LBS build them up.
It's always going to be more expensive to pay an Australian to build something than some impoverished boy in Taiwan. Yes, not a politically correct statement, however, it's sad but true! I've had 3 sets of Mavics over the years (Elites, SLs, and now ES's) and they've never given me a day's trouble. I would also venture that whilst any decent LBS would stand behind their mechanics, I'd prefer to deal directly with the supplier of a 'pre-made' product in the event of mishaps/warranty issues...

2. Carbon wheels.
A riding buddy of mine has some on his Colnago (unfortunately I don't know what brand) and has had a terrible run (needing constant truing, broken spokes, etc). Also, he's not a big guy and he reckons they flex heaps. I know that almost everything else on bikes is carbon these days, but IMHO the jury is still out on carbon wheels...

3. Your needs.
In general, everyone wants light, stiff, fast wheels. However, it all depends on things like: your body weight and what riding you do most of - climbing, racing, touring, etc.

Again, to the wheel-builders out there - good on you!

The issue with factory built wheels is that they are designed for the normal rider(ie in regards to built and needs, not ability), especially in regards to weight.

I am a heavy rider, and although I have had a good experience with the shimano R550 wheels, and the cheaper R500 wheels, others have not had such a good experience.

Light and fast wheels are not the only selection criteria for a wheelset, they have to be strong and reliable as well. Whats the point in having a 1kg wheelset, but at the first hit of a pothole, it collapses on you? The rider riding a 2kg wheelset, would overtake you in a jiffy! Of course all of these is irrelavant if you have one of those yellow Mavic support vehicles supporting you in all your traning rides.

Honestly I am not trying to learn wheelbuilding in an attempt to save money on a wheelset. Obviously purchasing a factory built wheelset is more cost effective. But I get a lot of pleasure from maintaining, and doing most of the repair work on my bikes.

Just finished building my project bike, and while its not really repair work, and more of just assembling the bits and pieces together, the experience has made me appreciate the bike more, and has also given me confidence to do running repairs on the bike should any part fail on me during a ride.

Another reason why I'd like to learn more abt bike repair and maintainance, is that I have had bad experiences with local bike mechanics who have conned me. Bicycle mechanincal maintenance and repair is really quite simple, IF you have the right tools for the job.

So my next target is wheel maintenance, and building. Just hope its not another black hole where money just dissapears! 😄 😄

Go on the wheel build mate!

I had an oldish wheel which started to break spoikes; I had the first 2 instances repaired by the LBS, but at no 3 I thought, bugger that, it's becoming too expensive, I did it myself, and replacing just 1 spoke gave me a soft shove towards wheel building. When the 4th spoke snapped, I realised the wheel's over the hill and I replaced all spokes, effecively a rebuild from scratch. Didn't have any special tools besides a minitool with spoke wrenches, no truing stand, just used the bike frame, and no dishing tool, just eye-balled it. I reckon it is a great success because no further spokes snapped, the wheel stays dead true despite getting punished while commuting.

The best sources I found were Sheldon Brown's site and the other I don't remember, but it is THE most influential book on bike mechanics, some chapters are downloadable for free, and one of them is on wheel building - worth $20 on it's own. If you are stuck for it, I wll get the name from my work PC tomorrow, let me know.

thomas_cho said:

The issue with factory built wheels is that they are designed for the normal rider(ie in regards to built and needs, not ability), especially in regards to weight.

I am a heavy rider, and although I have had a good experience with the shimano R550 wheels, and the cheaper R500 wheels, others have not had such a good experience.

Light and fast wheels are not the only selection criteria for a wheelset, they have to be strong and reliable as well. Whats the point in having a 1kg wheelset, but at the first hit of a pothole, it collapses on you? The rider riding a 2kg wheelset, would overtake you in a jiffy! Of course all of these is irrelavant if you have one of those yellow Mavic support vehicles supporting you in all your traning rides.

Honestly I am not trying to learn wheelbuilding in an attempt to save money on a wheelset. Obviously purchasing a factory built wheelset is more cost effective. But I get a lot of pleasure from maintaining, and doing most of the repair work on my bikes.

Just finished building my project bike, and while its not really repair work, and more of just assembling the bits and pieces together, the experience has made me appreciate the bike more, and has also given me confidence to do running repairs on the bike should any part fail on me during a ride.

Another reason why I'd like to learn more abt bike repair and maintainance, is that I have had bad experiences with local bike mechanics who have conned me. Bicycle mechanincal maintenance and repair is really quite simple, IF you have the right tools for the job.

So my next target is wheel maintenance, and building. Just hope its not another black hole where money just dissapears! 😄 😄

Hi Thomas

It's worthwhile getting Jobst Brandt's book on wheel building which is the "bible".
I am building up a bike also at the moment and I will use either 32h Dura ace or Chris King hubs, Velocity Aerohead OC rims, Velocity Veloplugs and 14/15/14 DT spokes. Just missed out on a set of Chris Kings due to a moron not wanting to post to Australia. I did manage to get a DA 28h which I'll build into a new rear wheel for the wife.

Wheel building is a great thing to do and the amain thing is patience to get it right. I also use linseed oil on the threads as a mild lock. Spoke prep is good to use also.

Cheers

Geoff

The book I mentioned before was Barnett's Manual. Wheel truing is chapter 17.

http://www.bbinstitute.com/manual.htm#order/download3

Geoff , Jur

I managed to borrow Joobst's book, and downloaded Barnett's manual (not the latest edition) when it was still free.

I cant afford to use Chris King hubs. So still looking around for some cheap and good buys (now who doesnt want some of those).
Just collecting parts and information at the moment. Hope you guys dont mind me asking you wheelbuilding questions in future.

Just jump in and build the wheels yourself.

It's a lot easier than it looks. I followed Sheldon Brown's instructions and they worked beautifully. Once you get to the point that spokes overlap, it'll all just 'click' and make a whole lot more sense.

I used Mavic Open Pro's with DT double-butted spokes, 32 up front, 36 on the rear (I wanted 36 on the front, but couldn't get the hub in time). The whole wheelset came in at about 1.7kg, IIRC. They feels a lot smoother than the original wheels (AT450 rims, 32x straight-gauge spokes, 2.1kg!) - presumably due to the double-butted spokes providing a little elasticity. They're still solid down hills. I also have a set of Velomax Ascent II's (1.4kg) which feel downright soft - but they go up hills nicely!

I ordered everything from www.universalcycles.com - despite international shipping, it worked out a lot cheaper than buying locally. I used a commercial truing stand, but it wouldn't have been much different using the bike frame and an elastic band on the brake levers. I also had a dish stick, but found it useless - I could eyeball the dish with more accuracy than the stick.

I don't weigh a lot, but I'm pretty rough on my road bike (and my mountain bike, but it's designed for that). With these wheels, I'm confident that the frame will break before the wheels buckle. The original wheelset needed to be trued every month or so. I trued my wheels once after about 100km, and never again (2000km-ish).

Ian,
Already jumped in. Already committed to a 32 spoked design, as the rims I got were 32 holed. Just looking around for hubs, but not willing to spend heaps on them at the moment. Shimano 105 hubs would do me just fine.

I am going to go with DT 14g straight spokes. Cant wait to get all the parts, and start building my first wheelset.

Thanks for the link, if you dont mind me asking, what was the shipping costs like?

Rgds

Hi i just sent you an e-mail regarding wheelsets.

Prive for the 105 hubs is $135.00
Also we have R-560 complete wheelsets on special for $299

see

cellbikes.com.auproduct.phpOpen ↗

thomas_cho said:

Ian,
Already jumped in. Already committed to a 32 spoked design, as the rims I got were 32 holed. Just looking around for hubs, but not willing to spend heaps on them at the moment. Shimano 105 hubs would do me just fine.

I am going to go with DT 14g straight spokes. Cant wait to get all the parts, and start building my first wheelset.

Thanks for the link, if you dont mind me asking, what was the shipping costs like?

Rgds

thomas_cho said:

Ian,
Already jumped in. Already committed to a 32 spoked design, as the rims I got were 32 holed. Just looking around for hubs, but not willing to spend heaps on them at the moment. Shimano 105 hubs would do me just fine.

I am going to go with DT 14g straight spokes. Cant wait to get all the parts, and start building my first wheelset.

Thanks for the link, if you dont mind me asking, what was the shipping costs like?

Rgds

You would be better off with double butted spokes. just as strong, lighter and more reliable. Aluminium nipples are lighter also but they are more prone to breaking. Depends how hard your are on parts.

Cheers

Geoff

Hi Geoff,
Just got my rims today. I am tempted to go double butted, but they are more than 2x the price.

Worth it?

Still contemplating what to do from here on.