Wheel-building gotcha???

"Zilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:RIGdc.4194$Yw5.1039
@bignews4.bellsouth.net:

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional
material exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in
this endeavour? Where does the "art" come into play?

Lacing a wheel is easy. Getting it evenly tensioned and true
takes a lot of patience.

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:21:51 +0000, Ken <[email hidden]> wrote:

<"Zilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:RIGdc.4194$Yw5.1039 <@bignews4.bellsouth.net: <> I'm
not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional
material <> exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in
this endeavour? Where <> does the "art" come into play? <
<Lacing a wheel is easy. Getting it evenly tensioned and
true takes a lot of <patience.

Maybe the gotcha is when you realize that you should
probably untension and start over rather than keep looking
for that ultimate quarter turn that brings all that wobble
and elipse into true. It took me about three re-tries my
first time to get a decent wheel built and it's not easy to
make that decision to begin-again. I'd make sure to oil the
nipples, a std instruction, and take my time like Ken said.

RE/

Quoted message said:

But what is the #1 "gotcha"

For me, it's been getting the right length spokes.
--
PeteCresswell

My recommendations as a builder of just 3-4 wheels

1) Get advice from expert as to best cross pattern (
2x, 3x etc)
2) Don't mail order the spokes, better to buy from someone
that sees the hub and rim.
3) right from the start count turns as you screw on nipples,
then you have beginning tension roughly equal.
4) continue going around turning each 3 , then 2 ,then 1 or
whatever until it looks close.
5) when you pluck the spokes if you have any musical
experience you can hear the pitch which closely reflects
the tension, each tone produced by plusking should be
very,very close for all spokes on one side.

; of course on the rear wheel the drive side tension is
much higher.

zilla-<< what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where
does the "art" come into play? >><BR><BR>

Getting the four varibles of the wheel correct all at the
same time-tension, roundness, trueness and dish. THEN stress
relieving it well.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Zilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional
material exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in
this endeavour? Where does the "art" come into play? I'm
about to rebuild my Bontrager Race Lite 700c rear wheel,
and I've never done this before but am eager to learn...

I don't know about 'art', but the procedures to properly
lace a wheel and bring it near to optimal tension and
trueness are straightforward and can be followed by any
literate person with a grain of patience. From then onwards,
because the preceding steps progress quite fast, it is
perhaps hard to remember as you take the wheel towards that
elusive perfection, that small is beautiful when it comes to
making the final adjustments.

Initially, to get the wheel roughly round and true you are
making adjustments in half= and even full=turn increments to
groups of several spokes. Later in the process, it may be as
little as one eighth of a turn made on just one or two
spokes. Where I have had to say 'To hell with it' and
slacken off the entire wheel to begin over, it is almost
always because I have tried to rush the last steps, making a
few big adjustments where several smaller ones are needed.

The second most likely cause of having to start over is when
at least one parameter - lateral trueness, roundness, dish
or even-tension, is overlooked as the wheel nears
completion. Each should be repeatedly checked in sequence.
In particular, I have found that wheels that have been
perfectly round throughout most the final 'tweaks', decide
to develop a flat spot or lump in the vicinity of the rim
joint just as I get tension close to its ultimate value.

I suppose all this is saying is that successful
wheelbuilding requires patience and there are really no
short-cuts.

Nigel Grinter Spokesperson Well-Spoken Wheels

Two small gotcha's: when the stand indicates a runout, pluck
two or more adjacent spokes and hit the lower pitched one.
When turning nipples, back turn afterwards to elimilate windup-
you can see this in oval or blades or by a permanent marker
line on the spoke. this makes for less popping and twanging
when riding which is that stored torque unwinding. Tom

--
Bruni Bicycles
"Where art meets science"
brunibicycles.com
410.426.3420
Nigel Grinter <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Zilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional material
exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where
does the "art" come into play? I'm about to rebuild my Bontrager
Race Lite 700c rear wheel, and I've never done this before but am
eager to learn...

I don't know about 'art', but the procedures to properly lace a wheel
and bring it near to optimal tension and trueness are straightforward
and can be followed by any literate person with a grain of patience.
From then onwards, because the preceding steps progress quite fast, it
is perhaps hard to remember as you take the wheel towards that elusive
perfection, that small is beautiful when it comes to making the final
adjustments.

Initially, to get the wheel roughly round and true you are making
adjustments in half= and even full=turn increments to groups of
several spokes. Later in the process, it may be as little as one
eighth of a turn made on just one or two spokes. Where I have had to
say 'To hell with it' and slacken off the entire wheel to begin over,
it is almost always because I have tried to rush the last steps,
making a few big adjustments where several smaller ones are needed.

The second most likely cause of having to start over is when at least
one parameter - lateral trueness, roundness, dish or even-tension, is
overlooked as the wheel nears completion. Each should be repeatedly
checked in sequence. In particular, I have found that wheels that
have been perfectly round throughout most the final 'tweaks', decide
to develop a flat spot or lump in the vicinity of the rim joint just
as I get tension close to its ultimate value.

I suppose all this is saying is that successful wheelbuilding requires
patience and there are really no short-cuts.

Nigel Grinter
Spokesperson
Well-Spoken Wheels

"Zilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional
material exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in
this endeavour? Where does the "art" come into play? I'm
about to rebuild my Bontrager Race Lite 700c rear wheel,
and I've never done this before but am eager to learn...

"Gotcha"? Learning how much tension a new, high-quality, well-
oiled spoke can really stand. I use this "rule of thumb":
when my thumbs are too tired to hold onto the spoke wrench,
the wheel's pretty close to final tension.

Jeff

(remove the polite word to reply) said:

2) Don't mail order the spokes, better to buy from someone
that sees the hub and rim.

This contradicts my own experience. I used to ask bike shops
for spoke lengths and they rarely got it right the first
time; I now calculate lengths myself. Even when I tell shops
exactly what I want, it's not unusual for them to give me
the wrong spokes: I use a spoke ruler to check the length
and thickness (gauge) of each spoke and sometimes they're
wrong. When buying spokes from a shop, I now bring the ruler
with me. I expect some shops' problems in this respect are
due to employees putting loose spokes in the first box or
bin they find.

I calculate lengths myself using Spocalc, which has been
more reliable than anything a bike shop ever told me. I mail
order spokes from Colorado Cyclist and they've always given
me the right spokes -- I'm guessing that's because they
build enough wheels to be well-stocked and to keep spokes in
the right place.

There are surely people and shops who know what they're
doing, but fewer than make that claim; the problem is
finding the reliable ones. I'm better off now that I
determine lengths myself and mail-order spokes from somebody
who consistently fills my orders correctly.

--
Michael Fuhr fuhr.org~mfuhrOpen ↗

Zilla said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional
material exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in
this endeavour? Where does the "art" come into play? I'm
about to rebuild my Bontrager Race Lite 700c rear wheel,
and I've never done this before but am eager to learn...

Reading and appreciating all the others' posts on gotchas, I
wonder why no one's mentioned . . .

. . . the frustration of rebuilding on an old rim, when it's
slightly out of whack to begin with. You get it all
straight but the spokes all have radically different
pitch. Rides nicely but the feeling in your stomach says
it wasn't good art this time 'round . . .

So - you say "rebuild" your wheel. If you're reusing the rim
and if you know it's in ugly shape, buy a new rim.

I replaced a chewed-up Veloce hub last week. I was making
bets against myself making it work, seeing as the rim is
MA3, but I had a go and got something that was "straight
enough to train on".

;-)

YMMV though . . .

/Robert

Robert Brown said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough
instructional material exists for that. But what is the
#1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where does the "art" come
into play? I'm about to rebuild my Bontrager Race Lite
700c rear wheel, and I've never done this before but am
eager to learn...

Quoted message said:

Reading and appreciating all the others' posts on gotchas,
I wonder why no one's mentioned...

Quoted message said:

... the frustration of rebuilding on an old rim, when it's
slightly out of whack to begin with. You get it all
straight but the spokes all have radically different
pitch. Rides nicely but the feeling in your stomach says
it wasn't good art this time 'round...

Quoted message said:

So - you say "rebuild" your wheel. If you're reusing the
rim and if you know it's in ugly shape, buy a new rim.

Not so quickly. I guess that's where some art enters the
task. Manually straighten the wheel before unspoking it or
after respoking it to low tension. Just because a rime is
not true should not rule it out unless it has kinks that
cannot be bent back into proper shape. I have repaired many
wheels that were pretzeled, making them good for a long
service life thereafter. This includes uncurling dings in
the rim edge from bottoming on obstacles.

Quoted message said:

I replaced a chewed-up Veloce hub last week.

How do you chew up a hub?

Quoted message said:

I was making bets against myself making it work, seeing as
the rim is MA3, but I had a go and got something that was
"straight enough to train on".

What means "train on"? Is that an allusion to your racing
renown or that your races are so filled with vanity that you
dare not be seen with a wheel that isn't true within a
millimeter, once-around. For what are you training that this
wheel will not suffice? Does Lance know about this?

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Robert Brown said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough
instructional material exists for that. But what is the
#1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where does the "art" come
into play? I'm about to rebuild my Bontrager Race Lite
700c rear wheel, and I've never done this before but am
eager to learn...

Quoted message said:

Reading and appreciating all the others' posts on gotchas,
I wonder why no one's mentioned...

Quoted message said:

... the frustration of rebuilding on an old rim, when it's
slightly out of whack to begin with. You get it all
straight but the spokes all have radically different
pitch. Rides nicely but the feeling in your stomach says
it wasn't good art this time 'round...

Quoted message said:

So - you say "rebuild" your wheel. If you're reusing the
rim and if you know it's in ugly shape, buy a new rim.

Not so quickly. I guess that's where some art enters the
task. Manually straighten the wheel before unspoking it or
after respoking it to low tension. Just because a rim is not
true should not rule it out unless it has kinks that cannot
be bent back into proper shape. I have repaired many wheels
that were pretzeled, making them good for a long service
life thereafter. This includes uncurling dings in the rim
edge from bottoming on obstacles.

Quoted message said:

I replaced a chewed-up Veloce hub last week.

How do you chew up a hub?

Quoted message said:

I was making bets against myself making it work, seeing as
the rim is MA3, but I had a go and got something that was
"straight enough to train on".

What means "train on"? Is that an allusion to your racing
renown or that your races are so filled with vanity that you
dare not be seen with a wheel that isn't true within a
millimeter, once-around. For what are you training that this
wheel will not suffice? Does Lance know about this?

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

zilla-<< what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where
does the "art" come into play? >><BR><BR>

Getting the four varibles of the wheel correct all at the
same time-tension, roundness, trueness and dish. THEN
stress relieving it well.

Peter Chisholm

Yep- but it's easier if you attack it this way:
1. round
2. true
3. dish
4. tension & stress relieve

It takes more time to go through several iterations of round-true-
dish while sneaking up on final tension, but it gives you a
better feel for differences in tension between spokes. Time
only matters if you're working in a shop- at home I can
build a wheel in a little more than an hour sitting in my
living room.

Jeff

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Zilla
I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional
material exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in
this endeavour? Where does the "art" come into play? I'm
about to rebuild my Bontrager Race Lite 700c rear wheel, and
I've never done this before but am eager to learn...

--
- Zilla Cary, NC (Remove XSPAM)

I would divide #1 into 5 parts:
Spoke Alignment, proper tension, then tension balance, remove windup, then stress relieve.
and check your work:
Check true and centering.
Sleep on it, check what you read in "the Bicycle Wheel", and if you are satisfied, ride with confidence and pride.
After 100 miles or so check your work again.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional
material exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in
this endeavour?

Not tensioning the spokes enough.

Quoted message said:

Where does the "art" come into play?

When you pick pretty colors for your rim. There is no art in
building wheels.

Quoted message said:

I'm about to rebuild my Bontrager Race Lite 700c rear
wheel, and I've never done this before but am eager to
learn...

"The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt. Nothing else to say.
----------------
Alex

In article
<[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

2) Don't mail order the spokes, better to buy from someone
that sees the hub and rim.

Why? It is very easy to measure your parts and then
calculate the spoke lenght. Also, I've yet to find a LBS
that carries my preferred spoke,
15/16 double butter. Most carry 14 straight gauge, a few
carry 14/15. Mail order will usually have a better
selection and you can verify that they have the
spokes in stock.
----------------
Alex

Quoted message said:

Robert Brown writes:

---8<---snip

Quoted message said:

of rebuilding on an old rim, when it's slightly

Quoted message said:

out of whack to begin with. You get it all straight but
the spokes all have radically different pitch. Rides
nicely but the feeling in your stomach says it wasn't
good art this time 'round...

Quoted message said:

So - you say "rebuild" your wheel. If you're reusing the
rim and if you know it's in ugly shape, buy a new rim.

Not so quickly. I guess that's where some art enters
the task.

True.

---8<---

Quoted message said:

I have repaired many wheels that were pretzeled, making
them good for a long service life thereafter. This
includes uncurling dings in the rim edge from bottoming on
obstacles.

Goody for you, but you are giving bad advice in this
situation.

Nobody following this NG can avoid hearing that you are the
world guru at bicycle wheels, who can straighten just about
anything into a good true wheel, but the OP seems to be
looking for *elementary* advice. He appears unsure about his
ability and is doing this job for the very first time. For
such a situation, we should give advice so that he is able
to build a success story first time around. OTOH we don't
know exactly what the reason is for the rebuild. But given
the wide range of (good) advice given, he'll be sure to pick
out the bits that fit the situation. If the rim's a
difficult one, he should buy a new one and save the old one
for a later-in-life challenge, or send it on to you.

If he is capable of handling bad rims and other ugly
situations, then he would not have needed to ask the
question that he did.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I replaced a chewed-up Veloce hub last week.

How do you chew up a hub?

As Nelson Mandela once said, ". . . one piece at a time" ;-)

But seriously folks . . . it was rust caused by training in
-4C on extremely salted and sanded (Swedish) roads.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was making bets against myself making it work, seeing
as the rim is MA3, but I had a go and got something that
was "straight enough to train on".

What means "train on"? Is that an allusion to your
racing renown

Yes.

Quoted message said:

or that your races are so filled with vanity that you dare
not be seen with a wheel that isn't true within a
millimeter, once-around.

Yes they are. When I race, the wheels should be somewhat
round. When I train, who cares what they are, as long as the
wheels don't hit the frame.

Quoted message said:

For what are you training that this wheel will not
suffice? Does Lance know about this?

Please don't tell him. He'll get really mad, at least at
one of us.

/Robert

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough
instructional material exists for that. But what is the
#1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where does the "art" come
into play? I'm about to rebuild my Bontrager Race Lite
700c rear wheel, and I've never done this before but am
eager to learn...

I'd say the "art" comes in making the most successful
tradeoff in trueness for even tension (a true wheel with
tension way off will neither remain true nor be durable).
Given good rims and good instruction, anybody with a modicum
of mechanical ability can build a true wheel. Or they can
build an evenly tensioned wheel. Getting the balance
(lateral and radial trueness, roundness all near perfection)
in an evenly tensioned wheel is high art.

R / John

On 10 Apr 2004 01:12:39 -0700, [email hidden] (remove

the polite word to reply) said:

My recommendations as a builder of just 3-4 wheels

1) Get advice from expert as to best cross pattern ( 2x,
3x etc)
2) Don't mail order the spokes, better to buy from someone
that sees the hub and rim.
3) right from the start count turns as you screw on
nipples, then you have beginning tension roughly equal.
4) continue going around turning each 3 , then 2 ,then 1 or
whatever until it looks close.
5) when you pluck the spokes if you have any musical
experience you can hear the pitch which closely reflects
the tension, each tone produced by plusking should be
very,very close for all spokes on one side.

; of course on the rear wheel the drive side tension is
much higher.

Good advice all the way around, It's a lot easier (but a
little unfair) to use a LBS if you don't know the correct
spoke length.

Staggered, off center hole patterns can throw you off by a
millimeter in spoke length or two. If you trial fit with a
partial lace using your old spokes you can sometimes make a
good length estimate for a similar rim. Some thread should
be left unused not threaded into the nipple. The spoke
should not extend through the nipple into the slot that is
used to turn the nipple.

It is easy to get the correct spoke length from an LBS if
you can bring in your old spoke for a reference, and just
ask for one size smaller or larger.