Wheel-building gotcha???

"Zilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:RIGdc.4194$Yw5.1039
@bignews4.bellsouth.net:

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional material
exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where
does the "art" come into play?

Lacing a wheel is easy. Getting it evenly tensioned and true takes a lot of
patience.

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:21:51 +0000, Ken <[email hidden]> wrote:

<"Zilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:RIGdc.4194$Yw5.1039
<@bignews4.bellsouth.net:
<> I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional material
<> exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where
<> does the "art" come into play?
<
<Lacing a wheel is easy. Getting it evenly tensioned and true takes a lot of
<patience.

Maybe the gotcha is when you realize that you should probably untension and
start over rather than keep looking for that ultimate quarter turn that brings
all that wobble and elipse into true. It took me about three re-tries my first
time to get a decent wheel built and it's not easy to make that decision to
begin-again. I'd make sure to oil the nipples, a std instruction, and take my
time like Ken said.

RE/

Quoted message said:

But what is the #1 "gotcha"

For me, it's been getting the right length spokes.
--
PeteCresswell

My recommendations as a builder of just 3-4 wheels

1) Get advice from expert as to best cross pattern ( 2x, 3x etc)
2) Don't mail order the spokes, better to buy from someone that sees
the hub and rim.
3) right from the start count turns as you screw on nipples, then you
have beginning tension roughly equal.
4) continue going around turning each 3 , then 2 ,then 1 or whatever
until it looks close.
5) when you pluck the spokes if you have any musical experience you
can hear the pitch which closely reflects the tension, each tone
produced by plusking should be very,very close for all spokes on one
side.

; of course on the rear wheel the drive side tension is much higher.

Two small gotcha's: when the stand indicates a runout, pluck two or more
adjacent spokes and hit the lower pitched one. When turning nipples, back
turn afterwards to elimilate windup- you can see this in oval or blades or
by a permanent marker line on the spoke. this makes for less popping and
twanging when riding which is that stored torque unwinding.
Tom

--
Bruni Bicycles
"Where art meets science"
brunibicycles.com
410.426.3420
Nigel Grinter <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Zilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional material
exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where
does the "art" come into play? I'm about to rebuild my Bontrager
Race Lite 700c rear wheel, and I've never done this before but am
eager to learn...

I don't know about 'art', but the procedures to properly lace a wheel
and bring it near to optimal tension and trueness are straightforward
and can be followed by any literate person with a grain of patience.
From then onwards, because the preceding steps progress quite fast, it
is perhaps hard to remember as you take the wheel towards that elusive
perfection, that small is beautiful when it comes to making the final
adjustments.

Initially, to get the wheel roughly round and true you are making
adjustments in half= and even full=turn increments to groups of
several spokes. Later in the process, it may be as little as one
eighth of a turn made on just one or two spokes. Where I have had to
say 'To hell with it' and slacken off the entire wheel to begin over,
it is almost always because I have tried to rush the last steps,
making a few big adjustments where several smaller ones are needed.

The second most likely cause of having to start over is when at least
one parameter - lateral trueness, roundness, dish or even-tension, is
overlooked as the wheel nears completion. Each should be repeatedly
checked in sequence. In particular, I have found that wheels that
have been perfectly round throughout most the final 'tweaks', decide
to develop a flat spot or lump in the vicinity of the rim joint just
as I get tension close to its ultimate value.

I suppose all this is saying is that successful wheelbuilding requires
patience and there are really no short-cuts.

Nigel Grinter
Spokesperson
Well-Spoken Wheels

zilla-<< what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where
does the "art" come into play? >><BR><BR>

Getting the four varibles of the wheel correct all at the same time-tension,
roundness, trueness and dish. THEN stress relieving it well.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

"Zilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional material
exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where
does the "art" come into play? I'm about to rebuild my Bontrager
Race Lite 700c rear wheel, and I've never done this before but am
eager to learn...

I don't know about 'art', but the procedures to properly lace a wheel
and bring it near to optimal tension and trueness are straightforward
and can be followed by any literate person with a grain of patience.
From then onwards, because the preceding steps progress quite fast, it
is perhaps hard to remember as you take the wheel towards that elusive
perfection, that small is beautiful when it comes to making the final
adjustments.

Initially, to get the wheel roughly round and true you are making
adjustments in half= and even full=turn increments to groups of
several spokes. Later in the process, it may be as little as one
eighth of a turn made on just one or two spokes. Where I have had to
say 'To hell with it' and slacken off the entire wheel to begin over,
it is almost always because I have tried to rush the last steps,
making a few big adjustments where several smaller ones are needed.

The second most likely cause of having to start over is when at least
one parameter - lateral trueness, roundness, dish or even-tension, is
overlooked as the wheel nears completion. Each should be repeatedly
checked in sequence. In particular, I have found that wheels that
have been perfectly round throughout most the final 'tweaks', decide
to develop a flat spot or lump in the vicinity of the rim joint just
as I get tension close to its ultimate value.

I suppose all this is saying is that successful wheelbuilding requires
patience and there are really no short-cuts.

Nigel Grinter
Spokesperson
Well-Spoken Wheels

"Zilla" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional material
exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where
does the "art" come into play? I'm about to rebuild my Bontrager
Race Lite 700c rear wheel, and I've never done this before but am
eager to learn...

"Gotcha"? Learning how much tension a new, high-quality, well-oiled
spoke can really stand. I use this "rule of thumb": when my thumbs are
too tired to hold onto the spoke wrench, the wheel's pretty close to
final tension.

Jeff

(remove the polite word to reply) said:

2) Don't mail order the spokes, better to buy from someone that sees
the hub and rim.

This contradicts my own experience. I used to ask bike shops for
spoke lengths and they rarely got it right the first time; I now
calculate lengths myself. Even when I tell shops exactly what I
want, it's not unusual for them to give me the wrong spokes: I use
a spoke ruler to check the length and thickness (gauge) of each
spoke and sometimes they're wrong. When buying spokes from a shop,
I now bring the ruler with me. I expect some shops' problems in
this respect are due to employees putting loose spokes in the first
box or bin they find.

I calculate lengths myself using Spocalc, which has been more
reliable than anything a bike shop ever told me. I mail order
spokes from Colorado Cyclist and they've always given me the right
spokes -- I'm guessing that's because they build enough wheels to
be well-stocked and to keep spokes in the right place.

There are surely people and shops who know what they're doing, but
fewer than make that claim; the problem is finding the reliable
ones. I'm better off now that I determine lengths myself and
mail-order spokes from somebody who consistently fills my orders
correctly.

--
Michael Fuhr
http://www.fuhr.org/~mfuhr/

Zilla said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional material
exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where
does the "art" come into play? I'm about to rebuild my Bontrager
Race Lite 700c rear wheel, and I've never done this before but am
eager to learn...

Reading and appreciating all the others' posts on gotchas, I wonder why
no one's mentioned . . .

.. . . the frustration of rebuilding on an old rim, when it's slightly
out of whack to begin with. You get it all straight but the spokes all
have radically different pitch. Rides nicely but the feeling in your
stomach says it wasn't good art this time 'round . . .

So - you say "rebuild" your wheel. If you're reusing the rim and if you
know it's in ugly shape, buy a new rim.

I replaced a chewed-up Veloce hub last week. I was making bets against
myself making it work, seeing as the rim is MA3, but I had a go and got
something that was "straight enough to train on".

;-)

YMMV though . . .

/Robert

Robert Brown said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional material
exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour?
Where does the "art" come into play? I'm about to rebuild my
Bontrager Race Lite 700c rear wheel, and I've never done this
before but am eager to learn...

Quoted message said:

Reading and appreciating all the others' posts on gotchas, I wonder
why no one's mentioned...

Quoted message said:

... the frustration of rebuilding on an old rim, when it's slightly
out of whack to begin with. You get it all straight but the spokes
all have radically different pitch. Rides nicely but the feeling in
your stomach says it wasn't good art this time 'round...

Quoted message said:

So - you say "rebuild" your wheel. If you're reusing the rim and if
you know it's in ugly shape, buy a new rim.

Not so quickly. I guess that's where some art enters the task.
Manually straighten the wheel before unspoking it or after respoking
it to low tension. Just because a rime is not true should not rule it
out unless it has kinks that cannot be bent back into proper shape. I
have repaired many wheels that were pretzeled, making them good for a
long service life thereafter. This includes uncurling dings in the
rim edge from bottoming on obstacles.

Quoted message said:

I replaced a chewed-up Veloce hub last week.

How do you chew up a hub?

Quoted message said:

I was making bets against myself making it work, seeing as the rim
is MA3, but I had a go and got something that was "straight enough
to train on".

What means "train on"? Is that an allusion to your racing renown or
that your races are so filled with vanity that you dare not be seen
with a wheel that isn't true within a millimeter, once-around. For
what are you training that this wheel will not suffice? Does Lance
know about this?

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

Robert Brown said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional material
exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour?
Where does the "art" come into play? I'm about to rebuild my
Bontrager Race Lite 700c rear wheel, and I've never done this
before but am eager to learn...

Quoted message said:

Reading and appreciating all the others' posts on gotchas, I wonder
why no one's mentioned...

Quoted message said:

... the frustration of rebuilding on an old rim, when it's slightly
out of whack to begin with. You get it all straight but the spokes
all have radically different pitch. Rides nicely but the feeling in
your stomach says it wasn't good art this time 'round...

Quoted message said:

So - you say "rebuild" your wheel. If you're reusing the rim and if
you know it's in ugly shape, buy a new rim.

Not so quickly. I guess that's where some art enters the task.
Manually straighten the wheel before unspoking it or after respoking
it to low tension. Just because a rim is not true should not rule it
out unless it has kinks that cannot be bent back into proper shape. I
have repaired many wheels that were pretzeled, making them good for a
long service life thereafter. This includes uncurling dings in the
rim edge from bottoming on obstacles.

Quoted message said:

I replaced a chewed-up Veloce hub last week.

How do you chew up a hub?

Quoted message said:

I was making bets against myself making it work, seeing as the rim
is MA3, but I had a go and got something that was "straight enough
to train on".

What means "train on"? Is that an allusion to your racing renown or
that your races are so filled with vanity that you dare not be seen
with a wheel that isn't true within a millimeter, once-around. For
what are you training that this wheel will not suffice? Does Lance
know about this?

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

[email hidden] (Qui si parla Campagnolo ) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

zilla-<< what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where
does the "art" come into play? >><BR><BR>

Getting the four varibles of the wheel correct all at the same time-tension,
roundness, trueness and dish. THEN stress relieving it well.

Peter Chisholm

Yep- but it's easier if you attack it this way:
1. round
2. true
3. dish
4. tension & stress relieve

It takes more time to go through several iterations of round-true-dish
while sneaking up on final tension, but it gives you a better feel for
differences in tension between spokes. Time only matters if you're
working in a shop- at home I can build a wheel in a little more than
an hour sitting in my living room.

Jeff

Zilla said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional material
exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour?
Where does the "art" come into play? I'm about to rebuild my
Bontrager Race Lite 700c rear wheel, and I've never done this before
but am eager to learn...
--
- Zilla Cary, NC (Remove XSPAM)

I would divide #1 into 5 parts: Spoke Alignment, proper tension, then
tension balance, remove windup, then stress relieve. and check your
work: Check true and centering. Sleep on it, check what you read in "the
Bicycle Wheel", and if you are satisfied, ride with confidence and
pride. After 100 miles or so check your work again.

--

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional material
exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour?

Not tensioning the spokes enough.

Quoted message said:

Where does the "art" come into play?

When you pick pretty colors for your rim. There is no art in building
wheels.

Quoted message said:

I'm about to rebuild my Bontrager
Race Lite 700c rear wheel, and I've never done this before but am
eager to learn...

"The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt. Nothing else to say.
----------------
Alex

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

2) Don't mail order the spokes, better to buy from someone that sees
the hub and rim.

Why? It is very easy to measure your parts and then calculate the spoke
lenght. Also, I've yet to find a LBS that carries my preferred spoke,
15/16 double butter. Most carry 14 straight gauge, a few carry 14/15.
Mail order will usually have a better selection and you can verify that
they have the spokes in stock.
----------------
Alex

Quoted message said:

Robert Brown writes:

---8<---snip

Quoted message said:

of rebuilding on an old rim, when it's slightly

Quoted message said:

out of whack to begin with. You get it all straight but the spokes
all have radically different pitch. Rides nicely but the feeling in
your stomach says it wasn't good art this time 'round...

Quoted message said:

So - you say "rebuild" your wheel. If you're reusing the rim and if
you know it's in ugly shape, buy a new rim.

Not so quickly. I guess that's where some art enters the task.

True.

---8<---

Quoted message said:

I have repaired many wheels that were pretzeled, making them good for a
long service life thereafter. This includes uncurling dings in the
rim edge from bottoming on obstacles.

Goody for you, but you are giving bad advice in this situation.

Nobody following this NG can avoid hearing that you are the world guru at
bicycle wheels, who can straighten just about anything into a good true
wheel, but the OP seems to be looking for *elementary* advice. He appears
unsure about his ability and is doing this job for the very first time.
For such a situation, we should give advice so that he is able to build a
success story first time around. OTOH we don't know exactly what the
reason is for the rebuild. But given the wide range of (good) advice
given, he'll be sure to pick out the bits that fit the situation. If the
rim's a difficult one, he should buy a new one and save the old one for a
later-in-life challenge, or send it on to you.

If he is capable of handling bad rims and other ugly situations, then he
would not have needed to ask the question that he did.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I replaced a chewed-up Veloce hub last week.

How do you chew up a hub?

As Nelson Mandela once said, ". . . one piece at a time" ;-)

But seriously folks . . . it was rust caused by training in -4C on
extremely salted and sanded (Swedish) roads.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I was making bets against myself making it work, seeing as the rim
is MA3, but I had a go and got something that was "straight enough
to train on".

What means "train on"? Is that an allusion to your racing renown

Yes.

Quoted message said:

or
that your races are so filled with vanity that you dare not be seen
with a wheel that isn't true within a millimeter, once-around.

Yes they are. When I race, the wheels should be somewhat round. When I
train, who cares what they are, as long as the wheels don't hit the frame.

Quoted message said:

For
what are you training that this wheel will not suffice? Does Lance
know about this?

Please don't tell him. He'll get really mad, at least at one of us.

/Robert

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not asking how to build a wheel - enough instructional material
exists for that. But what is the #1 "gotcha" in this endeavour? Where
does the "art" come into play? I'm about to rebuild my Bontrager
Race Lite 700c rear wheel, and I've never done this before but am
eager to learn...

I'd say the "art" comes in making the most successful tradeoff in trueness
for even tension (a true wheel with tension way off will neither remain true
nor be durable). Given good rims and good instruction, anybody with a
modicum of mechanical ability can build a true wheel. Or they can build an
evenly tensioned wheel. Getting the balance (lateral and radial trueness,
roundness all near perfection) in an evenly tensioned wheel is high art.

R / John

On 10 Apr 2004 01:12:39 -0700, [email hidden] (remove

the polite word to reply) said:

My recommendations as a builder of just 3-4 wheels

1) Get advice from expert as to best cross pattern ( 2x, 3x etc)
2) Don't mail order the spokes, better to buy from someone that sees
the hub and rim.
3) right from the start count turns as you screw on nipples, then you
have beginning tension roughly equal.
4) continue going around turning each 3 , then 2 ,then 1 or whatever
until it looks close.
5) when you pluck the spokes if you have any musical experience you
can hear the pitch which closely reflects the tension, each tone
produced by plusking should be very,very close for all spokes on one
side.

; of course on the rear wheel the drive side tension is much higher.

Good advice all the way around, It's a lot easier (but a little
unfair) to use a LBS if you don't know the correct spoke length.

Staggered, off center hole patterns can throw you off by a millimeter
in spoke length or two. If you trial fit with a partial lace using
your old spokes you can sometimes make a good length estimate for a
similar rim. Some thread should be left unused not threaded into the
nipple. The spoke should not extend through the nipple into the slot
that is used to turn the nipple.

It is easy to get the correct spoke length from an LBS if you can
bring in your old spoke for a reference, and just ask for one size
smaller or larger.